wet mounting fluid alternatives

[sergiob]

I cannot get Kami nor Lumina mounting fluid. I wan t to scan 8x10 HP5+ in an Epson V750. What alternatives are there to try wet mounting negs? Hopefully something tht is easy to clean from the negativa and that it doesn't damage it in any way. Thanks.

[Gem Singer]

Get a piece of anti-Newton glass from Focal point, in Fla. 8.5 in. X 10.5 in., 2mm thickness.

Make sure that both the AN and the scanner glass are clean. Place the 8x10 negative emulsion side (dull side) down on the scanner glass.

Then, place the anti-Newton glass over the (shiny) base side of the negative, frosted side of the AN glass down. Make sure that the scanner knows that you are scanning a negative directly on the glass so that it uses the proper focal point.

No mess to cleanup, costs less that the Aztec wet mounting kit, holds the negative flat, eliminates Newton rings, and works like a charm.

8x10 scans are coming out nice and sharp using that method on my Epson V750.

[mdm]

Johnson's Baby Oil. Cheap and probably just as good. I went to huge expense and a 4 month wait on Canada Post for some Lumina, only to discover baby oil while it was on the way. If you do some googling and dredge way back you will see some recomendations from respected people in a thread somewhere.

David


I cannot get Kami nor Lumina mounting fluid. I wan t to scan 8x10 HP5+ in an Epson V750. What alternatives are there to try wet mounting negs? Hopefully something tht is easy to clean from the negativa and that it doesn't damage it in any way. Thanks.

[IanMazursky]

I would really stay away from baby oil. It has scents and other components that can stay on and harm film.
Its made for babies tushes and not film :D But seriously, i would lean towards other options before baby oil.

If you cant get Kami or lumina, use mineral oil. Its more pure, cheap and easy to get everywhere.
MO was used in the scanning industry for well over 20+ years with great success.
One thing to note, i found that on Kodak E series chrome film the MO can absorb into the emulsion overtime.
I had used it for a few years when i started out but opted for Kami after testing the new Kodak film.
Please test on junk film before committing anything real. B&W film and most color neg seem unaffected but didn’t do an exhaustive test of all films.
Since MO was used for so long without any problems, i would give that a serious try. Its only a few bucks at the drug store.
Just make sure its unscented and pure mineral oil.

Last option is lighter fluid, Ronsonol or like. I know many printers who still use it to clean film before enlarging.
It seems to work well but its not specifically made for film and contains scents and other stuff.
Just be careful to test it and not burn the house down. After all, it is lighter fluid.

[sergiob]

Water, methanol or Isopropyl alcohol?

Thats what I have at hand right now.

[IanMazursky]

Plain water would make the emulsion soft and stick to everything.
It would be the same as when your film come out of the developing cycle, fragile, prone to dust/scratches and sticky.
Basically you would ruin the film and the scanner. I heard of one guy who did it years ago at a plant in NJ.
Lets just say the client wasn’t happy and the drum was ruined after scraping the film off.

Mineral Oil has been used forever in the scanning business. Its perfectly safe for most films except what i noted above.
You just need to clean it well after you scan.

Methanol may or may not work I don’t know. Kami is mostly Solvent Naptha, a little mineral spirits and little N-Hexane.
I don’t know if you could get Naptha but thats the primary component of Kami SMF.
You need a products with no water and it has to be non reactive towards film. It also has to have similar light transmission characteristics as the film.

[IanMazursky]

Isopropyl alcohol?

Thats what I have at hand right now.

I doubt that would work, it has water in it IIRC. You can try it but only on junk film.
Instead of experimenting on your scanner, just try a piece of glass.
See of you can remove the film after 20-30 minutes or better an hour. See what happens and then try to clean it.

On a side note, ive seen film after 15 years from scanning in mineral oil. It was fine, no degradation or change.
Products like Kami, Lumina…were developed specifically for the way they interact with film.
Others may work just not as well or can ruin film. Its just a mater of testing and what youre willing to risk.

[sanking]

Just a few personal comments to add to Ian's remarks, which are very sound.

If you can not find a good scanning fluid like Kami or Prazio I would recommend, in this order, the following.

1. Naptha
2. Mineral Oil
3. Baby Oil

I believe that all three are safe to use on film, but test for yourself. The long term effects are not known, burt I am not certain the long term effects are fully known for fluid mounts like Kami and Prazio either.

In terms of post scanning clean-up of the film baby oil is by far the most difficult.

Sandy

[jim kitchen]

If I may, I would like to add a few comments too... :)

I stopped using Baby Oil because it was too difficult to remove from the negative's emulsion, and because the oil was too thin it allowed too many micro bubbles to become entrained between the negative's emulsion and the mounting glass surface, therefore initiating a frustrating rework process within a few of my scanned images.

I do not have access to Kammi or Prazio for several reasons, so I now purchase a food grade heavy mineral oil at my local pharmacy, which suits my wet scanning process, and because the heavy mineral oil has an excellent viscosity, the oil does not seem to accept or entrain micro air bubbles that readily. The rubber brayer process chases any incremental visible bubbles to the edge of the negative, but there are a few incidents where I am not successful, or as effective as I would like to be with the odd smaller less visible bubbles. Prior to any scanning event, I preclean my negatives with Isopropanol (99%) and I do not use Isopropanol (75%) because there is too much water in the lower value, which will cause the negative's emulsion to swell uncontrollably. I also preclean the negative with PEC-12 film cleaner while using a fresh set of PEC-Pads, before the negative's emulsion is wet mounted to a glass plate. PEC products just happen to be readily available, so I use them...

After I scan the negative, I preclean the negative with a large Isopropanol (99%) volume, which thoroughly removes and, or cuts the heavy mineral oil from the negative's emulsion quickly. I then complete the negative's cleaning process with PEC-12 film cleaner again, while using a fresh set of PEC-Pads, and I store the negative properly after I inspect the cleaned negative.

jim k

[mrladewig]

I have been using the most readily available form of high percentage Naptha available over the counter. Rosinol lighter fluid. You need to be careful using this fluid from the standpoint of sparking. It is supposedly more volatile than Kami. But the composition is very, very similar. It usually evaporates without leaving any residue, but in the case where it does leave a little on a corner, a little naptha on a PEC pad or a little PEC 12 can resolve the issue. I use an overlayment of Grafix Dura-lar .003 from my local artist supply shop. Its pretty inexpensive and works well. What I will have to break down and get is Kami tape. I haven't found an over the counter tape that will not soften when exposed to the Naptha. I'm working with 4X5 film on a better scanning holder on a 4990.

[Andrea Gazzoni]

In terms of post scanning clean-up of the film baby oil is by far the most difficult.


what's the most easy to wash away?
how do you clean off mineral oil?
I understand the cleaning will be necessary even for the drum and for the mounting station...what a mess...

[sanking]

what's the most easy to wash away?
how do you clean off mineral oil?
I understand the cleaning will be necessary even for the drum and for the mounting station...what a mess...

I use Kami fluid now and the solvent mostly evaporates away. However, for the residue there is Kami cleaning fluid. You can also use other film cleaners.

When I used mineral oil I washed the negatives with a dish water liquid. It was not messy but wetting the film puts it a risk so I did not do that long.

Sandy

[IanMazursky]

Mineral oil has always been a pain to cleanup. You need a good solvent film cleaner to make a dent.
If you have a local pre press supplier ask for Anchor (now Varn) Film Kleen. Works like a charm.
Its been used for 20+ years to clean film for scanning and to cleanup mineral oil.

Best thing to do is setup a large cleaning wipe on your mounting table and set the film on it.
A. its a good base so the film wont slide away and B. it will absorb some from the back of the film.
Then get a wipe with some film kleen and clean from top to bottom. Repeat with a new wipe on the other side.
Throw the wipes out and repeat the process with new wipes & base wipe until the film is clean.
It may take a number of attempts but it will work.

To me, rewashing is a last resort, too much can go wrong ie. dust, scratches…
Kami by contrast is so much easier to use and cleanup. Just a quick cleaning and your set.

[Andrea Gazzoni]

I've bought the Kami fluids for mounting and cleaning. At first sight it seems too fluid, water like, I wonder how can one have it stay on a cilinder? First wet mounting trials this next weekend will say

[IanMazursky]

Hi Andrea,
Kami is very thin but perfect for mounting. First you need to tape the mylar at the top of the drum (avoid the calibration area).
Then clean your film and place it between the mylar and the drum. I usually try to get it as straight as possible.
The easiest way to apply kami is with a spray bottle, reusing a clean Pec 12 sprayer bottle is the best bet.
They are deigned for spraying solvents and wont deteriorate as fast as the cheap ones. They also give a very gentle and light spray pattern.
If you do not have a sprayer, gently pour the kami fluid over the top and bottom of the film between the mylar and drum.
Just remember that a little goes a long way and it will come out fast.

Spray the top and bottom of the film to coat it fully then using a few 2-4” pieces of tape, pull the bottom of the mylar tight against the end of the drum but don’t seal it yet.
Tape the left and right side to the drum. Using a roller, press hard and roll from the to to the bottom of the drum to remove air bells and even out the fluid.
Once you hit the end, clean up any fluid that escaped the end of the mylar and seal it with tape.
Now clean the area of the mylar with film cleaner to remove any roller marks and kami fluid.

Note that you should never use film or drum cleaner to mount film. The film cleaner should also not touch the drums surface.
Some drums do not react well to it.

Fluid mounting take practice, its an art! It may take a few times before you get the hang of it, i would practice on a junk neg before you start with a good one.
Hope that helps, please let me know if you have any questions.

[Andrea Gazzoni]

thank you Ian.

first try just ended, my God never seen such a mess since my first essays at bw developing in the bathroom with pierced tin foil trays and parents knocking at the door...

Kami RC film cleaner leaving stains on the slides
antistatic (dedicated) soft wipes leaving marks, scratches and fluff everywhere
Tesa tape dissolving into a pulp, the pulp sticking to the film and the drum...(did I say I am a newbie?)
film literally floating under the sheet of mylar
3M special tape getting immediately wet and lifting from the drum as I poured drops of Kami sxl
dust, dust and dust everywhere


in the end I didn't have the heart to even attach the drum to the scanner, removed every removable trace of this disaster and returned to my parental duties with a solid feeling of fondness for my naïve dry mounting and PS dust spotting until 1 a.m.

Will try again in a few days, anyway...maybe with a different process: place the mylar sheet on the table > pour some kami on it > place the slide on this and let it stick > tape the top of the mylar to the drum > some fluid between the film and the drum > seal the mylar and go.

Any warning off doing this?
thank you

[mrladewig]

Andrea,

Do you have the correct mounting station for your drum? If so, this will make the mounting much easier. Regardless as Ian said, I've heard it described as an acquired skill. The amount of fluid applied, the speed you roll the drum and the tension applied to the mylar all affect how successful you'll be.

[Peter De Smidt]

Did you check out the videos at: http://www.aztek.com/KAMI_FAQ.html

[Andrea Gazzoni]

yes thanks, I do have the mounting station for it. I guess I need a stronger tape, I will try the Kami one

[yeolde]

Hello everyone! a good liquid fro scanning is a Gamsol
https://gamblincolors.com/oil-painting/gamsol/
According to SDS this is a naphta, hydrotreated heavy