B&W developer for rotary processing

[asph]

Hi!

So far I have been using Adox Pan25 4x5" with Rodinal 1:50 in my jobo cpe2. I like the film and would like to go with it in the future. After going through the first 25 sheet box i noticed that I have to expose it at around iso 12 or maybe even a bit lower. I've been using Rodinal almost exclusively and would like to try something new as the bottle is almost empty anyway. Fine grain is of no concern, I'm mainly looking for high acutance and some compensating effects while retaining the box speed. I scan all my negatives and would like to make some digital negatives in the future, so no traditional printing either.

I'm interested in pyrocat mc, but can't find it anywhere in germany. Mixing my own would be a possibility though. Is the stain of any use when scanning? There are other staining developers available, mainly Tanol and Finol, but I wasn't a big fan of Tanol.

Are 2 bath developers of any use in rotary processors? I read the compensating effect doesn't happen with continuous agitation, so that would put diafine and Moersch MZB out of the question.

I'm happy to experiment a bit until I find something that feels right, so I'd like to hear your suggestions.

Thanks!

[Jay DeFehr]

Pyrocat MC can be used as a 2-bath developer, and will provide all the characteristics you're looking for. The risk in that approach is in uneven development, streaks, etc. Of course, Pyrocat MC can also be used as intended, as a single bath, one-shot developer, to produce excellent results.

I know one member here who uses 510-Pyro (http://pyrostains.blogspot.com/) @ 1:500 with rotary development, and gets outstanding results. This approach might never have occurred to me; I equate rotary development to short processing times with concentrated solutions, but that's a narrow minded attitude.

What's needed for rotary development is a developer that isn't quickly oxidized by contact with air. Glycin is an excellent candidate for a rotary developer, and I've had consistently good results with GSD-10 (http://gsd-10.blogspot.com/) in rotary processing, even though it was formulated for stand development. Glycin might difficult to source in Germany, and GSD-10 is not commercially available, so it might not be an option for you.

Diafine will work just fine with rotary development, and Moersch MZB includes instructions for use with the Jobo processor.

Good luck, and have fun!

[Nathan Potter]

Diafine is what I use ocassionally as one shot divided developer in a small tube (one 4X5 at a time) rolled by hand in a tempered tray bath. As Jay says it works well. For highlight control you just need to calibrate your own times/temperature/agitation variables.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[David Karp]

Barry Thornton's Metol 2 bath developer is a mix-at-home simple developer with good acutance that can be used in a rotary processor.

Check out this thread for a long, interesting, and informative discussion of 2 bath developers: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?p=504279#post504279

[sully75]

Can I add an additional question (threadjack)?

What's the basic suggestion for a developer for HP5 sheet in a Bessler/unicolor drum? I'm using D76, with prewash, and getting some streaking (I think). Was thinking about trying HC110, any other suggestions?

Back to your regularly scheduled thread...

[asph]

thanks everyone! going to do some reading on your suggestions. A 2 bath pyro sure sounds interesting..

Jay, the (german) instructions for MZB include these instructions aswell, however it states that the compensating effect is lost with rotary development, so I assumed the same will be true for diafine. I might just write to Wolfgang Moersch directly and ask him about that.

[David Karp]

Sandy King found that there is still compensating development in rotary development, at least when using Diafine or Divided D-23. This was discussed in his article on 2 bath developers in View Camera Magazine a few years ago. This article is well worth reading. View Camera sells old issues if you cannot get your hands on a copy.

[sanking]

The generally held view that two bath developers don't work with rotary agitation is a myth. In fact, developers like Diafine, Pyrocat-HD and -MC and other two part developers based on pyrocatechol actually work better with rotary agitation than with standard type agitation. I diluted Diafine 1:1 for rotary processing, and discarded the used developer. With Pyrocat-HD and -MC I dilute 1:10 for rotary processing. I belive Jay DeFehr has used his Hypercat formula for two bath development and might want to provide details.

A characteristic of developers like Diafine and Pyrocat-HD is that no development at all takes place in Solution A and when you put the film in Solution B development is virtually instantaneous. To avoid streaks and uneven development I advise adding a few drops of a wetting agent like PhotoFlo to Solution A as this promotes even draining of the solution.

Two-bath development has become my favorite method of development because, 1) highlight compensation is automatic, and 2) micro-contrast is very high from edge effects that are created as the developer exhausts in Solution B. The sharpness with this method is unlike anything I have ever seen, even with stand development.

Divided D23 is not a true two-bath developer in that some development takes place in Solution A because of the sulfite. For this reason you do not get nearly as much sharpness from micro-contrast that you see with true two-bath developers.

Sandy King

[Jay DeFehr]

I don't want to be a wet blanket, but I would not risk any important negative to a staining 2-bath developer until I'd perfected my technique. Streaking and uneven development is very real risks with this approach, but not an unmanageable one. I've developed a lot of film in staining 2-bath developers without uneven development, but I've also been able to reproduce the problems others have reported by duplicating their techniques. I think developers in which the first solution is made up in glycol work better because the glycol acts as a wetting agent. That's just a theory.

I think the use of very dilute solutions is worth considering. Rotary development is often referred to as continuous agitation, but that's not technically accurate. Rotary development is essentially high frequency intermittent agitation. As the drum rotates, the developer remains at the bottom of the drum, while the film rotates through. It's possible that a very dilute developer could permit some exhaustion during these very short rest cycles, and thereby introduce some compensating effect. Again, just a theory.

[drew.saunders]

Sandy,

I've been using your 1:1 one-time Diafine in Jobo since the VC article came out, but have had occasional streaks, now I see:


To avoid streaks and uneven development I advise adding a few drops of a wetting agent like PhotoFlo to Solution A as this promotes even draining of the solution.

Sandy King

Thanks! I'll try that next time.

I also found that 5min/5min for FP4+ really is necessary with Diafine. 3/3 for TMax 100 works well enough, plus I kind of like t-grain films, so I think my experiment with FP4+ will end with this one box and I'll go back to Tmax 100 in Diafine with rotary processing.

Drew

[evan clarke]

D76 won't lead you astray, day in and day out...EC

[David Karp]

Of course, you could try Divided D-76. ;)

[Jay DeFehr]

Sandy,

We were typing at the same time. I'm not sure many truly appreciate the concept of instantaneous development. We're accustomed to the traditional time frames of film development, and the adjustments required for contrast control being measured in minutes, not in seconds, or fractions of a second, but film exposure and development are quantum processes, and things happen very quickly.Some motion picture film developing machines sprayed hot developer on traditional B&W film to develop in a fraction of a second. The time frames typically used for film development are convenient and permit some margin of error in timing and other development controls, but these times are by no means absolutes, and there are potential benefits to instantaneous development, as you've noted above. I think the 2-bath method has real merit, and it's mechanisms are just beginning to be widely understood and exploited.

Hypercat as a 2-bath:

Hypercat was formulated to be used with intermittent agitation, and loses significant speed in rotary processing, except when used as a 2-bath. The way I use Hypercat as a 2-bath is as follows:

I make an A solution by adding some sodium metabisulfite to a dilution of Hypercat A solution. The concentration of the first solution of a 2-bath developer is the most important contrast control, and expansion development is possible with a sufficiently concentrated A solution. Since I'm more likely to use expansion development than contraction development, I make a very concentrated A solution:

distilled water 750ml
sodium metabisulfite 2g
Hypercat A 100ml

distillled water to 1 liter

This solution is re-used, and will keep very well. For contraction development, dilute the stock A solution 1+1. This solution can be re-used, but wont keep as well as the more concentrated stock will. Incidentally, this stock solution can be used a single bath developer by diluting 1:10 and adding an appropriate amount of alkali, but that's another subject.

For the B solution I use a 1% solution of sodium hydroxide (10g in a liter of water), and use it one-shot.

Time in either solution is not critical. In the first bath the developer is absorbed into the emulsion. I don't know exactly how long it takes to saturate the emulsion, but since the solution is acid, I give it a good while, 5 minutes at 75F, or so. This is probably overkill, but it's safe and doesn't have any associated risks beyond squandered time. Time in the second bath is also not critical, because development is practically instantaneous. I give it 2 min to be generous.

Wetting agent:

As I've mentioned, the glycol in the A solution acts as a wetting agent, and perhaps more importantly, a defoamer. The last thing we want in rotary processing is our developer foaming! Since my A solution is fairly concentrated, it contains a generous amount of glycol (1% by volume), which I suspect contributes to my success in making streak-free negatives.

Anyone using a 2-bath developer that doesn't contain glycol might consider adding some.

I hope this is useful.

[SW Rick]

...I diluted Diafine 1:1 for rotary processing, and discarded the used developer. With Pyrocat-HD and -MC I dilute 1:10 for rotary processing. I belive Jay DeFehr has used his Hypercat formula for two bath development and might want to provide details.....

Sandy King


Sandy,

I assume you still used the "normal" times with the 1:1 Diafine?

Thanks,

Rick

[asph]

thanks, this is great!

diafine costs 35€ per gallon here, I might just mix my own pyrocat or hypercat as I have some of the chemicals already. Maybe start with the single bath and switch to a 2 bath later on, once I feel comfortable.

One question though, with the 2 bath hypercat, can I substitute the sodium hydroxide by sodium carbonate, just like in the normal hypercat? I have both, but I think lye is quite nasty to work with, so I'd prefer working with sodium carbonate.

I'm gonna go to the local chemical retailer and hope for the best, they're always a bit random over here. One day they sell you everything without a question, and the next they look at you like you want to make some sort of bomb and tell you they're not allowed to sell anything to private individuals.

[Jay DeFehr]

Yes, sodium carbonate will work fine. Try a 1% solution, and use it one shot, for the 2-bath. Good luck with your chemical retailer!

[venchka]

Can I add an additional question (threadjack)?

What's the basic suggestion for a developer for HP5 sheet in a Bessler/unicolor drum? I'm using D76, with prewash, and getting some streaking (I think). Was thinking about trying HC110, any other suggestions?

Back to your regularly scheduled thread...

HP5+ exposed at ASA 250. 4-5 minute prewash. Xtol 1:3. Tap water stop. Jobo 3010 drum. Uniroller or Beseler one-way motor bases at 30-32 rpm. 4x5 & 120. Perfect.

[sanking]

Yes, sodium carbonate will work fine. Try a 1% solution, and use it one shot, for the 2-bath. Good luck with your chemical retailer!

Jay,

Did you really mean a 1% solution of sodium carbonate, or was that perhaps a typing mistake?

Sandy

[venchka]

Sandy,
Do you prewash your film prior to using 2 bath Pyrocat-HD or -MC? Is there much difference in the two formulas for film in a Jobo 3010 and turned one-way on a Beseler motor base?

[sanking]

Sandy,
Do you prewash your film prior to using 2 bath Pyrocat-HD or -MC? Is there much difference in the two formulas for film in a Jobo 3010 and turned one-way on a Beseler motor base?


Wayne,

I recommend a pre-soak of 3-5 minutes with both Pyrocat-HD and -MC with two bath development. I also recommend adding a few drops of PhotoFlow to working solution A.

Not much difference in results between -HD and -MC with this type of development. I use them both and can not see any difference.

Sandy

[Jay DeFehr]

Jay,

Did you really mean a 1% solution of sodium carbonate, or was that perhaps a typing mistake?

Sandy

Sandy,

Yes, I meant 1%. A 1% solution of sodium carbonate has a pH of around 11+, I think; more than enough to do the job. The 1% solution is used one-shot. If I'm only processing one or two rolls/sheets, I just dump a heaping teaspoon in 500ml of water, and that's close enough. I don't think it would make much difference if I doubled the concentration.

[asph]

Ok so I finally got all the required chemicals! I'll shoot a couple test sheets now and then try the 2 bath hypercat. I'll report back with the results.

[Sirius Glass]

Wayne,

I recommend a pre-soak of 3-5 minutes with both Pyrocat-HD and -MC with two bath development. I also recommend adding a few drops of PhotoFlow to working solution A.

Not much difference in results between -HD and -MC with this type of development. I use them both and can not see any difference.

Sandy

Sandy,

I plan on using my Jobo 2 CPP with Rollo Pyro for Ilford FP4+, HP5+, Kodak, TMax, Tri-X 400, Tri-X 320 Pan, ... the usual suspects. I assume that I should presoak for three to five minutes. If I process to completion and ignore the pemperature, do I use solution A for five minutes, solution B for ten minutes and then reuse A for five minutes? Follow with two minutes of water for rinse and then five to ten minutes of PF-4. Then Photo-Flo outside of tank.

Am I correct in using the Rollo Pyro as a one shot development?

Steve

[asph]

Both negatives came out almost blank! There's a very faint image visible, with virtually no stain. Here's what I did:

Prewash for 5min in tap water

5min in hypercat A with 2g sodium metabisulfite diluted with distilled water to 1L. I used about 350ml of this solution undiluted. I didn't pay attention to the temperature and I used it about 1h after mixing. Maybe the problem is here. The solution was a light amber color and clear.

2-3min in a 1% solution of sodium carbonate, I've calculated it, and pH should have been around 11.3. Solution was milky white.

Quick water rinse, then fix with a rapid fix.

The A solution was 100ml glycol, 10g catechol and 1g ascorbic acid.

Any ideas?

/edit: I noticed that I used sodium carbonate decahydrate, which, according to the datasheet, needs 50g/L for a pH of 11-12. I have another box of sodium carbonate that doesn't say decahydrate. Unfortunately I don't have any pH strips, but I'm guessing this could be the problem.

[Jay DeFehr]

It has to be the B solution. I'm sorry I didn't specify the form of carbonate- I always use the same kind, and I don't directly test for pH. I prefer sodium hydroxide for the alkali, which doesn't come in so many different forms, and provides plenty of pH, but carbonate works just as well, so long as enough is used, and there's a lot of room for error in excess, so use plenty of it. I hope you saved your A solution, as it can be reused many times.

I'll be home in a week, and I'll make some pH measurements, and identify the form of carbonate I'm using. In the meantime, I'd suggest you just keep adding carbonate, in generous proportions, until you get good results.

[asph]

I got some pH strips and used the other sodium carbonate I had. This time I'm sure pH was >11. However the negative came out totally blank without any image whatsoever.

Now I'm pretty clueless.

[asph]

The small piece of pH paper I got from the pharmacy apparently only go to pH 10.
However, after studying some more datasheets, most of them give the 50g/L value for a pH of 11.5. I'm trying this now. I'm hoping for the best :)

[drew.saunders]

Sandy,

I assume you still used the "normal" times with the 1:1 Diafine?

Thanks,

Rick

Sandy didn't reply, but, yes, you use the normal times for 1:1 Diafine. For the 3 films that I've tried 3min A, 3min B for TMX and EfkeIR820, 5/5 for FP4+. Check the massive dev chart.

And I just did 12 sheets with the drop of photo-flo in solution A and didn't get any uneven parts or streaks, even with light backgrounds.

Drew

[asph]

well, success, sort of. 50g/L did the trick. I put 6 heaping teaspoons in 400ml water. The negative is pretty thin, but I'm pretty sure it was underexposed anyway, as the specular highlights show good density.

However the "streaking" is pretty extreme. I used the slow speed on the cpe2, so maybe it's that. I've attached a quick snapshot of the neg holding it against a lamp.

Also there is no staining/tanning that I can see. Maybe it is very faint.

Another test using the fast speed on the jobo had the same errors, but showed nice contrast and compensation with box speed. So I'm definately going in the right direction

[Lachlan 717]

I'm not sure about "Rollo"'Pyro, but One of the solutions in Pyro-MC needs to be shaken before using it.

Given you mixed this an hour prior to use, perhaps one of the solutions has settled out?

[sanking]

Sandy,

I plan on using my Jobo 2 CPP with Rollo Pyro for Ilford FP4+, HP5+, Kodak, TMax, Tri-X 400, Tri-X 320 Pan, ... the usual suspects. I assume that I should presoak for three to five minutes. If I process to completion and ignore the pemperature, do I use solution A for five minutes, solution B for ten minutes and then reuse A for five minutes? Follow with two minutes of water for rinse and then five to ten minutes of PF-4. Then Photo-Flo outside of tank.

Am I correct in using the Rollo Pyro as a one shot development?

Steve

Steve,

I don't know anything about using Rollo Pyro for two bath development. It might work fine but I would not have any idea about the right dilution and development time.

Sandy

[sanking]

Sandy didn't reply, but, yes, you use the normal times for 1:1 Diafine. For the 3 films that I've tried 3min A, 3min B for TMX and EfkeIR820, 5/5 for FP4+. Check the massive dev chart.

And I just did 12 sheets with the drop of photo-flo in solution A and didn't get any uneven parts or streaks, even with light backgrounds.

Drew

Sorry about the no reply, for some reason I did not come back to this thread until now. But the answer above re: Diafine is correct. For rotary processing dilute the solutions 1:1 and develop for the time and temperature indicated on the Diafine box.

I think you should add some Photo Flo to Solution A as I recommend for two-bath Pyrocat.

Sandy

[Jay DeFehr]

asph,

Streaking is a real risk with this type of development. I think small differences in technique can be important, and those who have few or no problems have refined their process and/or stumbled onto one that works for them. It seems your on your way to doing the same. Little changes like rotation speed, tank/reel design, pre-soaking, or not, film type, water quality, etc., etc., can make for significant differences in results, and it seems not all the variables are transferable, for whatever reason. So it seems one has to work through these issues for one's self, to one degree or another, to find a procedure that works for them. On the plus side, once a procedure is worked out, it is generally reliable, and efficient. That being said, I'm not convinced rotary processing, or divided developers are the best ways to develop film. I've invented a new system for daylight development of sheet films that guarantees the best possible results regarding evenness of development and economy of solutions, while permitting the widest range of agitation frequencies, from stand, to continuous. I'm very excited to introduce this system to the LF community. I hope to make rotary development for sheet film a thing of the past.

[asph]

Thanks again to both of you!
Adding 1ml of Photo Flo to Solution A hugely improved the results. I think 1ml may have been too much, as it foamed quite a lot, which worried me a bit at first, but the negative is almost free of streaks! It's still a bit uneven in some parts, and it seems the foam has introduced a few air bubbles resulting in some white spots. I've extended the time in A to 8 minutes hoping it would absorb the developer more evenly, and also used the slow speed to reduce the foam. It still seems like a very delicate process and I would not risk any important shots in it yet. I'm going to try skipping the presoak and play with the temperature a bit for the next run.

I'm really liking the negatives so far, seems like this will be my developer of choice once I get consistant results.

[Jay DeFehr]

asph,

I'm happy to know your refining your process and improving your results; how about posting an example? If you had some unconverted part A concentrate, you could make up a single bath standard Hypercat solution to use with intermittent agitation and compare with your converted/divided/rotary processed negs.

[asph]

I'll post some shots in the future, my test scene is just too plain and boring :) I'm going to shoot some real stuff tomorrow, unfortunately I wasn't able to get streak free negatives yet, so it'll be either rodinal or single bath after some testing. I hear single bath isn't as prone to streaking, so I might go with single bath for now.

Apart from the photoflo I could not improve the results any further yet. The pH of the B solution is really critical, there seems to be a point below which no development occurs at all. It's as little as 5 teaspoons versus 6, so my attempt in saving some carbonate ruined a few tests. 8 tsp added further contrast, so being close to the threshold gave best results. I was a bit lazy there, 1 teaspoon is about 2.5g for me, and I used 400ml water.

[Jay DeFehr]

asph,

The single bath isn't intended for rotary processing, and you'll lose some film speed, about like Rodinal, but otherwise it should work well. I'd recommend a 1+5+100 dilution, using a 20% sodium carbonate solution as the part B. Good luck!

[sully75]

Jay when will we hear about your new method?

[sully75]

keeping silent Jay?

[Jay DeFehr]

Hi Paul,

I am, for the time being. I'm looking into patents, and I'm still prototyping, so I'm not ready to publish any details. I'm very excited about it, and it's hard to keep mum, so don't tempt me!

[sanking]

asph,

On the plus side, once a procedure is worked out, it is generally reliable, and efficient. That being said, I'm not convinced rotary processing, or divided developers are the best ways to develop film. I've invented a new system for daylight development of sheet films that guarantees the best possible results regarding evenness of development and economy of solutions, while permitting the widest range of agitation frequencies, from stand, to continuous. I'm very excited to introduce this system to the LF community. I hope to make rotary development for sheet film a thing of the past.

I have never felt that any kind of developer or method of development was "best" for every situation. However, when one is developing film to scan there is no reason to develop it to a specific CI, or contrast. When that is the case I find two bath development to be the "best" way for me, for both sheet film and roll film. The reasons I prefer this method of development have already been stated, but at the risk of boring people I will state them again.

1. The mechanism of two bath development limits the development of contrast to a specific CI. This assures that no matter how great the subject brightness range of the original scene may be you will never get blown highlights. The result is that you can photograph scenes of very great contrast and always get a negative that will scan and capture detail from the deepest shadows to the highest highlights.

2. Two bath development in true two bath formulas results in negatives of very great microcontrast. In a true two bath formula the negative absorbs reducer in Solution A but no development takes place. Then, when you put the negative in Solution B development is virtually instantaneous. This results in instant exhaustion of the developer along tonal boundaries and creates very fine adjacency effect lines. The result is nicer, im my opinion, than with stand development because there the lines tend to be more pronounced, which can detract if the negative is magnfied to much in printing.

3. Benefits #1 and #2 come with absolutely no need for note taking in the field. You simply make sure to expose the film for the deepest shadows where you want some detail, and then develop the film normally in your two bath formula.

Since I began using the two bath technique some three or so years ago it has become by far my favorite method of development and I have so far developed more than two hundred sheets of 5X7 film and two or three hundred rolls of 120 film this way. In my opinion it is a virtually fool proof type of development, if done with a formula and method that has been proven to work.

I have never experienced any problem of uneven development when developing with two bath Diafine or two bath Pyrocat, but my technique is very specific in terms of dilution and agitation, and I only develop rolls on reels in stainless steel tanks, and sheet film in drums with continuous agitation. Also, adding a big of Photo Flo to Solution A seems to help prevent streaking, though personally I never added it until recently and never have had any streaking.

Sandy King