Schneider Sinar Symmar 300mm f5.6 Convertible for 8x10

[Fragomeni]

Can anyone talk to me about this lens in terms of clarity, quality, and contrast for 8x10? Also, what size filters will I need for the lens and are they readily available? I will be using it on a Deardorff primarily for contact printing. How much do I lose in image quality when using the lens converted (500mm f12)? I have heard great things about this lens but I've also read people's opinions regarding a lot of the older convertible lenses. I know Ansel didn't have a problem with them haha! Anyway, I'm looking for pros and cons please. Thank you!

[Ole Tjugen]

Good coverage, good contrast, big and heavy.

Some chromatic aberration in the corners when used converted, but more than good enough for contact printing.

You need a LOT of bellows for using it converted, though. 61cm at infinity, according to http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/archiv/pdf/sr_5.6_a.pdf

[Fragomeni]

So would the converted function be lost on a standard Deardorff 8x10? I'd like to use as much of the lens as I could if I'm buying it. Also, what would be a good price for this lens in Ex+ condition? Thanks.

[Ole Tjugen]

I don't know the Deardorff camera - my Gandolfi "Precision" can handle it without problems.

I use the whole range of old Symmar lenses, from 100mm to 360mm. I like both the coverage and the rendition, as well as the large aperture. The weight of the larger ones can be a drawback, unless your camera is very strong.

[Fragomeni]

Ole, thanks for your help!

Can anyone speak to the use of this lens on a Deardorff 8x10? I just want to make sure its not too much weight. Also, what is a good price for this lens?

[Daniel Unkefer]

I also have the whole set of Schneider convertible Symmars, from 100mm to 360mm. Use them on my Sinar Norma. They are excellent, big lenses. I would highly recommend them. You will need one in a shutter to work on the Deardorff. I would say $300-$450 for a good one, would be a good deal, depending on condition. Focalpoint has cleaned mine, they had a milky film, caused by the "gassing" of the optical glass. I bought my barrel mounted Sinar 300 (with Norma full automation) for $250 in Germany, then had it cleaned. It's simply a great lens. AVEDON used the Norma 300mm for shooting 8x10 chromes, it was the best you could get, at the time. Hard to go wrong, really, unless it's badly seperated. Go for it.

[Fragomeni]

Great! Ok, this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150490038063&_trksid=p2761.l1259#ht_3569wt_913) is the lens that I'm looking at (hopefully no one steals it from under my nose).

Can you give me your opinions on it and also what size filters does it take?? Also, I can't see the aperture scale in the images. I've written to the seller but what f-stops are available in the aperture scale? Thanks!

[Fragomeni]

Answered my own question. Its in a Copal No. 3. Apertures should be through f64 and f32 depending on with length is used. Looking forward to getting it on the Deardorff! I'll review later :)

[Daniel Unkefer]

Ask to see a photo of the aperture scale. I don't think that lens is in the original shutter, which was a gas-powered "Compound" shutter. If it was me, I would want the lens in the original shutter, this looks like a transplant, to me. Nothing wrong with that, as long as it was done properly. If the cells are not spaced properly, the lens will not be as sharp, as it could be.

[Fragomeni]

Yes, this one comes in a Copal No. 3 shutter. The lens is sold under a 30-day warrenty so when it arrives I'll have it checked out and if anything is wrong I'll return it.

[Frank Petronio]

When that lens was made, the Copal 3 did not exist. What Daniel is saying is that it was remounted. Usually a 300mm lens like that will stop down to f/45 or f/64 with markings on the aperture scale, so it is possible that the owner simply screwed the front and rear elements into a spare shutter, neglecting to attach a proper aperture scale. As well as ignoring the spacing requirements. So while it may be functional, it should be checked for optimal results.

[Fragomeni]

When that lens was made, the Copal 3 did not exist. What Daniel is saying is that it was remounted. Usually a 300mm lens like that will stop down to f/45 or f/64 with markings on the aperture scale, so it is possible that the owner simply screwed the front and rear elements into a spare shutter, neglecting to attach a proper aperture scale. As well as ignoring the spacing requirements. So while it may be functional, it should be checked for optimal results.

Thanks Frank, I understand what you guys are talking about. Those are concerns of mine as well. When it arrives I'll be bringing it directly to you technician to be looked at. If anything seems off I'll just send it right back. The seller sold it under a 30-day warranty and I've spoken to them about it already explaining that I'll have it checked out upon arrival and if its not kosher I'll need to return it under the warranty. They have been completely honest so far and they responded saying that all sounds good and if I'm not satisfied with the lens then I can simply email them and return the lens.

For my own knowledge, I want to make sure that the spacing is correct between the front and rear elements and the shutter correct? And I also want to make sure that a proper aperture scale is attached? Anything else I should look for? Thanks! :)

[Daniel Unkefer]

Thanks Frank, I understand what you guys are talking about. Those are concerns of mine as well. When it arrives I'll be bringing it directly to you technician to be looked at. If anything seems off I'll just send it right back. The seller sold it under a 30-day warranty and I've spoken to them about it already explaining that I'll have it checked out upon arrival and if its not kosher I'll need to return it under the warranty. They have been completely honest so far and they responded saying that all sounds good and if I'm not satisfied with the lens then I can simply email them and return the lens.

For my own knowledge, I want to make sure that the spacing is correct between the front and rear elements and the shutter correct? And I also want to make sure that a proper aperture scale is attached? Anything else I should look for? Thanks! :)

Your lens is SINAR selected, see the green SINAR on the lens ring? That's a good thing, they hand-selected the best lenses from all the lens runs. Regarding the spacing and aperture issues, the lens should be placed onto an optical collimator, and if required, "spacers" would be machined, to place the front and back cells at their optimum positions, assuming the cells themselves are still in good condition, and in good proper original order. Very tricky procedure, to do right.

The aperture scale is probably from another lens, so the f/stops may be way off. Also the original scale on the Compound shutter had -two- scales, one for the standard
setup, and one for using the lens in "convertible" mode. What you have there, most likely, is a bit of a Kluge. But it may be OK for your uses, no one else will use it the way that you will. It might be fine, and the COPAL shutter is desirable, but not available, when this lens was King. www.focalpointlens.com

[Fragomeni]

Your lens is SINAR selected, see the green SINAR on the lens ring? That's a good thing, they hand-selected the best lenses from all the lens runs. Regarding the spacing and aperture issues, the lens should be placed onto an optical collimator, and if required, "spacers" would be machined, to place the front and back cells at their optimum positions, assuming the cells themselves are still in good condition, and in good proper original order. Very tricky procedure, to do right.

The aperture scale is probably from another lens, so the f/stops may be way off. Also the original scale on the Compound shutter had -two- scales, one for the standard
setup, and one for using the lens in "convertible" mode. What you have there, most likely, is a bit of a Kluge. But it may be OK for your uses, no one else will use it the way that you will. It might be fine, and the COPAL shutter is desirable, but not available, when this lens was King.

Daniel, that a lot to think about haha. My suspicion is that my technicians (Photomark in Phoenix, AZ) will be able to handle it but if not any recommendations for sources in the states that could get everything in optimal working order?

[Daniel Unkefer]

Daniel, that a lot to think about haha. My suspicion is that my technicians (Photomark in Phoenix, AZ) will be able to handle it but if not any recommendations for sources in the states that could get everything in optimal working order?

John Van Stelton @ www.focalpointlens.com

[Paul Ewins]

I wouldn't be too concerned about having the incorrect shutter. Although they were sold in a Compound 3 when introduced that was replaced by a Copal 3 once the Compounds were phased out. It was also available in later years ex-factory in a Compur 3, Compur-Electronic 3 and Compur Electronic 5.

The serial number dates it to 1965 which would show up as a Compound 3 in the catalogs, but it may also have been available in a Copal 3 by that stage.

[Fragomeni]

A question I've asked the seller is about the aperture scale. If this lens is the result of mounting the elements on a Copal 3 after the fact would there indeed still be two separate aperture scales, one for the 300mm configuration and one for the 500mm configuration? If the lens came mounted on the Copal 3 would there still be two scales?

[Fragomeni]

Also, how do I tell whether the aperture scale is accurate for this set of lenses or if it is off because it came from another lens?

[Paul Ewins]

If the lens was factory mounted in that shutter the aperture scale should be marked for both 300mm (in white) & 500 mm (in green). If there is only one scale then it is not the original shutter.

[Fragomeni]

Thanks Paul!

[Daniel Unkefer]

Also, how do I tell whether the aperture scale is accurate for this set of lenses or if it is off because it came from another lens?

If your test results are -way- off in exposure, you would have to have a new f/stop band created to replace the current one. If the tests are not as optimally sharp as they could be, cell spacing would be the suspect.

[Fragomeni]

The lens ended up being one where someone put the elements on a Copal 3 shutter without the necessary adjustments and new aperture scales. I ended up getting a refund and I put it toward another lens. Thank everyone for your help!