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Pawlowski6132
23-Aug-2010, 10:21
So, I'm looking forward to my first 8x10 contact prints this week.

Any tips/advice from the pros out there? I assume I can still use my global and local print controls (filters, dodging, etc.)

Also, any comments on the "drop glass" frames vs. the "old fashioned" frames?

thanx in advance,

Joe

Oren Grad
23-Aug-2010, 10:44
Newton's rings. Newton's rings. Newton's rings. Newton's rings. Newton's rings.

Did I mention Newton's rings?

I've gotten Newton's rings, without fail, with any and every contact printing frame I've ever used. These days I contact print by sandwiching the negative and paper between two sheets of glass that are substantially larger than whatever paper size I want to print on, with the upper sheet 3/16" thick. Still not perfect, but the incidence of Newton's rings is much reduced, to a level I can more or less live with.

YMMV, depending on the temperature and humidity in your darkroom, the phases of the moon, whether you've done something to anger the printing gods, etc.

As for the rest, I print on the same variable contrast papers I use for enlarging, using my enlarger with color head as a light source. Local manipulation like dodging and burning is more difficult than it is in enlarging, because it's much harder to see the image. If your printing style relies on extensive local manipulation, that may take some getting used to.

David Karp
23-Aug-2010, 11:15
For dodging and burning, I place some landmarks on the base, around the edge of the contact frame. These give me an approximate location for performing the burn or dodge. It is still much harder to find the right location because the negative/paper sandwich is so dark, but it does help focus your attention on the proper location.

Mark Sawyer
23-Aug-2010, 12:02
For dodging and burning, I place some landmarks on the base, around the edge of the contact frame...

A good hint! I sometimes put little dots along the edges to help find a certain area that needs work.

If you're using an enlarger as a light source, be sure it's not focused on any dust on the condensers or heat sheild. I remove the lens altogether on mine and run the head to its highest point to insure clean, even light.

jb7
23-Aug-2010, 12:21
Newton's rings. Newton's rings. Newton's rings. Newton's rings. Newton's rings.

Did I mention Newton's rings?


Not a problem with the frame I made-
6mm glass clamped over foam- quite stiff foam, about 1" thick.

Dodging and burning is more problematic, my light source is quite large, not a point source-

I was thinking I could lay a sheet of glass above the frame, and lay out my shades on top of it- is this the same method that a printing machine uses?

Of course, I do get the occasional negative that prints well straight, but I always feel I should be doing something more with it.

Isn't contact printing the greatest overkill? Last night I found myself inspecting the print with a loupe, to find detail I just couldn't see without one-
It's like having a secret...

Sal Santamaura
23-Aug-2010, 12:26
Newton's rings. Newton's rings. Newton's rings. Newton's rings. Newton's rings.

Did I mention Newton's rings?

I've gotten Newton's rings, without fail, with any and every contact printing frame I've ever used...Likewise, until I replaced the glass with "non-glare" picture framing glass. Not a single ring since, regarless of ambient conditions.

Get a sheet of the finest texture, single-sided glass available that's free of imperfections. Have it cut to fit your frame. Install with the textured side facing the negative. Problem solved. With the sharpest paper I've ever used, grade 3 Azo, no hint of texture can be seen on prints, including in even-toned sky.

Merg Ross
23-Aug-2010, 12:33
I assume, since you mention the use of filters, that you will be using a projection paper rather than a graded contact paper. You will be able to make prints on variable contrast paper using an enlarger light source, and experience good results.

However, to enable the use of a brighter light source, resulting in easier dodging and burning, you might want to try one of the available graded silver chloride contact papers. They are much slower speed than projection papers, which will allow extended printing times and an easier read of the negative for manipulation.

Just a thought. Anyway, have fun; there is nothing quite like a contact print from any size negative!

Oren Grad
23-Aug-2010, 12:33
Sal, I've tried non-glare and anti-Newton glasses before and always ended up with the texture showing in my prints.

It's always possible that some vendor has come up with a variant that's just different enough to do the trick. Can you identify a specific brand that's worked well for you?

Sal Santamaura
23-Aug-2010, 13:18
...Can you identify a specific brand that's worked well for you?Unfortunately, no. I've simply gone to a frame shop and asked for the finest texture they had.

I use a diffuse light source for contact printing on Azo, specifically a 40w bulb in a 10-inch diameter Smith-Victor reflector with the diffusion attachment clipped on. When contacting on enlarging paper, I use a diffusion head with no negative in the carrier and the lens set lower than the point where carrier opening edges are sharp. Is it possible that a collimated light source causes texture to be visible in prints?

Oren Grad
23-Aug-2010, 13:36
Is it possible that a collimated light source causes texture to be visible in prints?

I'm using the LPL 4x5 dichroic head and always keep the negative carrier edges as well as the emitting surface of the enlarger head well out of focus, so the light should be pretty diffuse. Further supporting that is that specks of dust on the upper surface of the top glass don't visibly affect the print - they have to be pressed against or between the negative and the paper to show up.

I'll keep an eye out for different flavors of the antiglare glass. It would certainly be handy to be able to use a frame sometimes; it's worth the occasional experiment with new materials to see whether I'm missing anything.

MIke Sherck
23-Aug-2010, 19:10
If you go the route of contact print frames, make sure you don't end up with cheap frames made of soft wood. Little wood fibers and slivers on your negative will drive you nuts in perpetuity. You want one made of some sort of hardwood.

I have two frames, one with the traditional clamping back, the other with a rather thicker piece of glass which drops into the top of the printing frame. It's over sized and has indentations in the wood at either end, to get the glass out. I prefer that one. For years I just used a piece of window glass (with smoothed edges, naturally!) and this frame works the same way but with better repeatability since the print frame stays at the same place in the light cone. I got both frames off E-bay several years ago, both are old and well-used.

Mike

Vlad Soare
24-Aug-2010, 00:23
I think the problem with dodging and burning contact prints is due to the enlarging papers. These are very fast and require a very weak light in order to give you comfortable exposure times (I mean long enough to allow for any manipulations). That's why the negative looks very dark.
I have contact printed on Lodima, which is so slow that I can use a 150W halogen reflector lamp at one meter above the easel (and boy, is that light strong!) and still get exposure times of about twenty to thirty seconds. Under this light the negative is anything but dark. I have no trouble dodging or burning. None at all. I can see every detail.

If you haven't already, read about Michael Smith's metronome technique (http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/onprinting.html). It makes dodging and burning a piece of cake. Even with contact prints (as long as the light is strong enough, that is :)).

Bruce Barlow
24-Aug-2010, 03:24
Somebody once told me that if you breathe on the side of the glass that faces the paper and wipe off the fog with a paper towel you won't get Newton's rings. It's worked for me, but then, I've never had a Newton's rings problem, with or without aerosol spit. Nevertheless, I do it.

So, at one level, my solution works as well as my elephant repellant here in New England. Never had an elephant problem, by guff.

Jim Noel
24-Aug-2010, 08:16
I have several contact printing frames - all of them old. some as old as the 19th century. The hinged backs are a necessity for me as I use not only silver chloride printing papers,but also produce prints using several alternative processes.
Each of my frames has non-glare glass and I have never had a problem with the texture showing in the prints.
For a light source, I remove the lens from an enlarger with a diffusion (VC-CLS) head and raise the enlarger to a height which provides an illuminated circle about twice the diameter of the diagonal of the print frame.
The head is set to provide blue light.

Brian Ellis
24-Aug-2010, 08:24
The main problem I had with dodging and burning was the glare from the glass that made it difficult to see anything. Fortunately there's a lot less dodging and burning usually required with contact printing than with enlarging.

I used a large contact printing frame made by a company called Great Basin something or other and never had a Newton ring or a pattern. Expensive frames but very well made and worth the cost I thought.

Oren Grad
24-Aug-2010, 08:39
I used a large contact printing frame made by a company called Great Basin something or other and never had a Newton ring or a pattern. Expensive frames but very well made and worth the cost I thought.

I have a couple of Great Basin frames, among others. They're lovely - beautifully made, smoothly finished, easy to handle - and they give me Newton's rings.

My conclusion from wrestling with this over the years is that there's no magic answer. At this point I'm skeptical that any product exists that can guarantee ring-free results in any darkroom. The phenomenon is so sensitive to environmental conditions that one just needs to be prepared for the possibility that some tinkering will be required to find a workable solution. For those who have never had a problem - count your blessings, and enjoy!

I should say, though, my elephant repellant works perfectly. :)

SMBooth
24-Aug-2010, 17:33
SNIP Fortunately there's a lot less dodging and burning usually required with contact printing than with enlarging.

SNIP

A question from a ignorant person - "Why is this so" Ive read it a couple of time but never know why.

DanK
24-Aug-2010, 17:55
For contact printing I use 1/4" Safety Glass and have yet to encounter Newton Rings from this type of glass...

Buy it in the size you need...doesn't cut well...

Edges are usually finished quite well - my stock is from old glass display shelves.

Thanks,
Dan

Merg Ross
24-Aug-2010, 18:00
A question from a ignorant person - "Why is this so" Ive read it a couple of time but never know why.

The answer, in part, is that silver chloride contact papers have a longer scale than projection type papers.

Pawlowski6132
24-Aug-2010, 18:14
The answer, in part, is that silver chloride contact papers have a longer scale than projection type papers.

Where does one get these Silver Chloride papers? Besides Azo and Lodima, what else is there??

Anyone try Berggers contact paper?

N Dhananjay
24-Aug-2010, 18:19
A question from a ignorant person - "Why is this so" Ive read it a couple of time but never know why.

Dodging and burning are usually required because you choose a paper grade for the local contrast that it provides in the key areas and dodge/burn to prevent shadows going to black and to get some texture in the highlights.

Couple of arguments I have heard for contact prints requiring less dodging and burning. One, contact printing papers (Azo, Lodima) typically have a longer scale (i.e., long straight line section). So, less of the subject matter falls on the compressed toe and shoulder that reduce local contrast and texture. Two, light passes through the emulsion, strikes the paper and some of it is reflected back towards the negative. Now the silver image is actually pretty shiny and capable of reflecting light and the highlights (dark part of the negative) have more silver and reflect more light - in the right conditions, your silver negative can look like a positive image because of this. Now while enlarging, this light scatters and creates flare. In contact printing, the light reflected by the silver goes back towards the paper - that is, the highlights actually get slightly more exposure than they otherwise would.

At one point, I made 1:1 enlargements and contact prints and it proved impossible to make the prints identical. At the time, I did think the highlights tended to show texture in the contact print where they would not in an enlargement. However, my skills may have also been insufficient and I do not offer this as proof one way or the other.

In my opinion, dodging and burning are tools for getting the print to appear right. A perfectly scaled negative will not necessarily eliminate dodging and burning - local textures are not always so cooperative. I work entirely by contact printing these days and it is the rare negative that prints straight with no dodging or burning. Admittedly most of the time, it is mild amounts. And perhaps enlargements would require even more.

Dodging and burning contacts is not too difficult. I usually keep my test print at hand and find it quite simple to locate dodge and burn areas by looking at the test print and then at the neg/paper sandwich. If the negative is not too unruly, you can even see the negative image under the light (the advise to use contact papers and bright lights makes sense to me - I would imagine it would be more difficult to see the negative image under the dim light needed for enlarging papers). But more to the point, when you work in one size, you become very attuned to the relative positions within that size. You will find that locating a small area to burn in becomes easy because you have been doing so much work finding areas within exactly that size. Its like a muscle memory or something.... Think of how a pianist unthinkingly knows the exact amount to move his arm/finger to reach a particular note or make it sounds loud/soft. And how that muscle memory is very specific to a specific instrument. A new instrument requires to be practiced on to attain that same level of familiarity and comfort.

Cheers, DJ

Merg Ross
24-Aug-2010, 18:48
Where does one get these Silver Chloride papers? Besides Azo and Lodima, what else is there??

Anyone try Berggers contact paper?
I believe that Fomalux has a silver chloride paper available from Freestyle. Check over at APUG for a conversation on this paper. I have not used it.

SMBooth
24-Aug-2010, 19:27
Thanks DJ & Merg.

Yes thread over at APUG on the Fomalux 111 (and its RC brother Fomalux312)

Andrew O'Neill
24-Aug-2010, 21:24
My contact frame is a very simple wooden "L" frame painted black with foam rubber. No problem dodging/burning. I use masks, either handmade or printed on OH material on the inkjet printer. I have a sheet of anti-newton ring glass but I usually just use 1/4 inch plate glass. Rarely get the dreaded A/N rings. Got to have tight contact of neg to paper and you should be okay.

David Karp
24-Aug-2010, 21:40
A question from a ignorant person - "Why is this so" Ive read it a couple of time but never know why.

I don't know the technical reason, but I have noted over the years that I would make a contact proof sheet of 4x5 negs on enlarging paper, and see lots of detail in the shadows. Then it would take lots of hard work to coax those details out when enlarging. It can be done, but it takes a lot more work.

You get the same thing when you want to make a contact print from a larger negative, even on enlarging paper.

Pawlowski6132
25-Aug-2010, 16:53
Anyone ever use one of THESE (http://cgi.ebay.com/Wooden-1918-Kodak-Amateur-Printer-Nagative-Contact-/130424827639?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0)type things?

Mark Sawyer
25-Aug-2010, 16:58
Anyone ever use one of THESE (http://cgi.ebay.com/Wooden-1918-Kodak-Amateur-Printer-Nagative-Contact-/130424827639?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0)type things?

Seen 'em, but never used 'em. You can't burn or dodge with those.

Pawlowski6132
25-Aug-2010, 20:47
I won't need to dodge or burn, my negatives are perfect.


Seen 'em, but never used 'em. You can't burn or dodge with those.

Jon Shiu
25-Aug-2010, 22:50
Seen 'em, but never used 'em. You can't burn or dodge with those.

There are some with multiple light bulbs that you can turn on or off individually.

Jon

cjbroadbent
26-Aug-2010, 13:06
Seen 'em, but never used 'em. You can't burn or dodge with those.
This one (http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/2hQNinU55s8-5XaKokJ7Pg?feat=directlink) has a glass tray inside for dodging. I use tissue paper and soetimes cotton-wool. The idea was to be able to make repeatable series of contact prints. The black tape on top frames an 8x10 negative. The bother is being unable to use a large size paper for 'gallery' margins.

Mark Sawyer
26-Aug-2010, 18:57
There are some with multiple light bulbs that you can turn on or off individually.

That would be a pretty primative approach at best for what many negatives need.


This one (http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/2hQNinU55s8-5XaKokJ7Pg?feat=directlink) has a glass tray inside for dodging. I use tissue paper and soetimes cotton-wool. The idea was to be able to make repeatable series of contact prints. The black tape on top frames an 8x10 negative. The bother is being unable to use a large size paper for 'gallery' margins.

Interesting! But it still leaves out the burning. Perhaps if there were a provission for sliding in various masks without disturbing the registration. But the time involved would be considerable, too much to be practical unless you were making a sizeable edition...

My own biased opinion, of course!

Merg Ross
26-Aug-2010, 20:33
There are some with multiple light bulbs that you can turn on or off individually.

Jon

These are not really intended for the nuances involved in making a fine contact print, in my experience.

However, I did use one in commercial lab work when contact printing 8x10 negatives of large groups where the strobe lights were not properly set. The resulting negative might have fall-off on one side which could be corrected by manipulating the bulbs in such a box. Once set, it was easy to make fifty identical prints.

Stephane
26-Aug-2010, 21:57
I use normal rc and fb MG paper in a paterson proofing frame, and the light source is from my 4x5 enlarger with colour head. I've had no problem, no Newton ring... Dodging and burning is easy, and the dodging tools are small (size of a small coin). Best is to try to make a negative for grade 2 print so any dodging or burning will be very settle.