Noob Enlarging questions :)

[Mikuda]

Hello again after long brake! :)

Meanwhile, as I was focused on MF photography, I got more determined to start assembling LF stuff.
First (and last until now) thread I started here gave me so HUGE amount of answers on LF
that I simply didn't have to post any more without having equipment in action ;)
I'm after Steve Simmons book and whole Ansel Adams trilogy too.

Now, after long time with MF and darkroom I realised that I have to start LF from a little different aproach.

I mean FIRST I need ENLARGER for 4x5!
I don't want to end up with LF camera and bunch of 4x5 negatives contact-printed, I want to go large!

And, as I noticed on e-bay, decent LF enlarger can be much more expensive than camera itself,
and there is not as much to choose from. That damped my enthusiasm a little.

So here new questions arose:

1. To minimise amount of equipment, can LF Camera lenses be used optionally as enlarging lens? Or maybe it's standard procedure?

2. Similar to above: Can (or could at least) whole LF camera be used as part of enlarger?
(i.e. attached <somehow> below light head and diffuse glass)?

3. I was also thinking about trying to make simple camera and/or enlarger (or: enlarger and/or camera) by myself.
I've done some research on that matter and I think it could be quite an adventure :))
I didn't decide if it will be monorail or folding camera (monorail seems much easier)
but I made quite nice bellows already just for fun - probably easiest part ;)
Today, with laser-cutting services everywhere it should be easy to tailor-cut many parts.
(If my DIY conception will get more real, I'll ask a bit more technical questions, like dimensions of filmholder chamber, minimal internal bellows sizes etc.)

For now that would be all :)
Have fun answering my noob questions now :)

[ic-racer]

In the Midwest USA, because the weight and bulk, the large format enlargers can be obtained sometimes for very little money (or even free).

HOWEVER, I just saw you are in Poland. Now I guess that is not Poland, Ohio (near me), so that could be a problem.

You CAN make an enlarger, but in many parts of the world it is not economically practical to do so. In your case, do some searches here and on APUG and there are some threads of making 8x10 enlargers from cameras. You could scale that down to 4x5.

If you do make an enlarger, one of the most difficult parts will be the light supply. You should be able to get a light head from e-bay for a reasonable price. Shipping of just the light head should be a lot less than the whole enlarger.

[Ari]

Dziendobre,
To try to answer some of your questions:
Enlarging lenses are better for enlarging, and camera lenses better for cameras. If you have nothing else, a camera lens can be used, but enlarging lenses are pretty cheap right now, as is most enlarging equipment.
Homemade is a good way to go if you can align negative, lens and paper stages. You just need a constant light source (and a lens). I've seen where a camera was fixed to a wall and used as an enlarger. The film holder was replaced by a homemade negative glass sandwich. If you made your own bellows, you will be able to make a pretty decent enlarger from odds and ends. You can look at this:
http://photo.net/learn/darkroom/speed-graphic-enlarger

or this page:
http://www.apug.org/forums/forum147/35267-4x5-enlarger-diy.html


Post some photos when you get something up and running.
Good luck

[Mikuda]

Thank You for input!
Indeed ic-racer, it's not Poland, Ohio :)
Any LF equipment is extremely hard to find here, and - if so - prices are killing me!
It's cheaper to buy in US and haul to my country than get it from local sellers.
That's why I'm struggling so much.
As I said I'll give a DIY Enlarger a try - If it will go smoothly I'll think about DIY camera.
If not - I'll buy a camera at least. (I was thinking about simpliest Shen-Hao)
What is MOST critical parameter of enlarger light source then? - Power, equal diffuse, light temperature, no-flicker? All of them equally? :D

Ari, just out of curiosity, if let's say camera lenses can (perchance) be used for enlarger, what is it exactly that makes them better for each purpose?
("Enlarging lenses are better for enlarging, and camera lenses better for cameras")

P.S. It's "Dzień dobry" actually, two separate words ;)

[Bob Salomon]

Ari, just out of curiosity, if let's say camera lenses can (perchance) be used for enlarger, what is it exactly that makes them better for each purpose?
("Enlarging lenses are better for enlarging, and camera lenses better for cameras")

P.S. It's "Dzień dobry" actually, two separate words ;)

Camera lenses are designed to take something large and fit it on a negative, usually at f22 on 4x5. An enlaging lens take something small and makes it large. Usually, with a modern enlarging lens, around f11. In addition an enlarging lens will have an illuminated aperture, a pre-set mecanism on the aperture and disengageable click stops to make user in the darkroom more convenient.

[ic-racer]

Evenness of illumination, and adequate intensity are going to be the biggest things to solve with Large Format enlarger construction.

The lamp intensity needs to really get bright as the format is increased, for example:

35mm enlarger = 25 to 50W
Medium Format enlarger = 80W
4x5 enlarger = 200 to 250W
8x10 enlarger = 1000 to 2000W


But don't get discouraged, you can even use light from a window as a light source!

[BetterSense]

Ansel adams describes how he made a horizontal 8x10 enlarger from a camera, including 2 different light sources, in "the print". You might want to check it out.

[dsphotog]

There was the 4x5 Graph-larger attachment for Crown & Speed graphic cameras.

[Mikuda]

It's hard to get even normal 4x5 enlarger, so I can forget about something like graph-larger attachment ;)
Thanks for noting Ansel Adams, I forget he described his enlarger in "Print".
There's too little information to begin constructing but I found few important tips there.
I can try to make a cold-light head similar to his, but based on array of modern LED bulbs.
Today they can be very strong, they are not heavy, do not generate much heat, do not eat much energy, what You think? It's also interesting idea with bringing outer row of LEDs a bit forward to equalize edge lighting.
Ic-racer, thank you for light intensity comparision.
One more question, if I understood correctly, the same enlarger with the same light source can be used either with diffuser or condenser, depending on what I'll slide into drawer?

[ic-racer]

One more question, if I understood correctly, the same enlarger with the same light source can be used either with diffuser or condenser, depending on what I'll slide into drawer?

For a home-made light source you will be using diffusion. It will be too difficult to get the correct condenser lenses focused to make a good home-made condenser enlarger, unless you can get a set of condensers from a spare-parts enlarger.

[ic-racer]

http://cgi.ebay.com/You-can-build-The-Five-Buck-ENLARGER-Plans_W0QQitemZ390103582447QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5ad3fc46ef

Did you see this (Link points to plans for $5 enlarger).

[Mikuda]

Hi again! Thanks for all suggestions.
MEANWHILE I got an possibility to buy Durst 138s enlarger.
I need some things straighten up about it.
FIRST:
It is described as 5"x7" - what format is it? I mean I'll be focused on 4x5 mostly so it will cover it, but as I might be interested in larger in the future I thought it should be:
4x5 > 5x8 > 8x10 so "5x7" surprised me. Can You explain it? Are 5x7 cameras as common as 5x8?
SECOND:
It is condenser enlarger but unfortunately this one comes without latico, so I'll have to buy it. What latico number will I need for 6x6 medium and what for 4x5 large?
Can I use a diffuser instead of condenser in this enlarger? As Ansel Adams described they give different effects so it will be nice to have both possibilities :)
THIRD (and last for now):
It has only one lens - 210mm. Is it proper lens for 4x5 or will I need other focal length?

I'm still negotiating but I think it will be no more then 300$
I guess It's quite nice price for this monster :)

[ic-racer]

Nice enlarger! That would be a thousand times better than a home-made enlarger.


138 would be 5x7 inches. So, inbetween 8x10 and 4x5. I'm not sure about 5x8, maybe that is a european format (though the Durst is made in Italy and I have not heard of a 5x8 Durst.).

The manual is available online here ( http://www.durst-pro-usa.com/PDF_FILES_TANK/L138S%20Manual.pdf ). That will tell you which latico to get.

Some info about fitting a diffuser here ( http://www.durst-pro-usa.com/Light_head_5x7_comparison.htm ).

It [138 condenser head] also doubles as a cold light head and/or as a soft lighthead. Use it as a soft-light head by introducing a diffuser below the condensers or as a regular cold-light head by introducing a diffuser and a filter pack, or as a condenser cold-light head by introducing a filter pack---quote from Durst Pro USA

[Mikuda]

Thank you, I was just saying that 5x8 would be logical "double" size of 4x5 and half the size of 8x10. But if 5x7 is pretty normal format, I'm fine with it ;)
Meanwhile I rummaged thorough various sites and indeed 5x7 cameras are common, so my question was premature, sorry! :o

And thank for all links too!

[Mikuda]

Hi again, I do not have that Durst yet but I hope to finish negotiations today.
It will be 400$ but it's still worth it since it seems to be in excellent condition.
I have one more question because in the end it's Durst 138 and not the 138S
Is it Big difference?

[ic-racer]

Hi again, I do not have that Durst yet but I hope to finish negotiations today.
It will be 400$ but it's still worth it since it seems to be in excellent condition.
I have one more question because in the end it's Durst 138 and not the 138S
Is it Big difference?

Good job!
I'm not sure on the difference. Probably not much, but maybe a 138(s) user will chime in here.

[Rick A]

If you do not get the enlarger, then rethink your format. Go with 8x10 and contact print everything. Spend your money on good camera and lenses and dont worry about an enlarger at all. If you are handy you can make your own contact printer.

[Ginette]

If you wish to enlarge... buy this Durst 138 now if you have it near your home. This is a solid enlarger and this will be perfect for 4x5 and if you wish to buy a 5x7 camera later, you will be able to enlarge 5x7 negs too.
400$ is a fine price if the enlarger is complete with some condensers, negative carriers, some extra lens boards. Negociate for having every parts the seller have for this enlarger because buying parts later will be costly. Latico condensers list http://www.durst-pro-usa.com/world_images/138table.htm
You have already a 210 lens with it (cover 5x7 negs), you can use it for 4x5 but you can find a nice 150mm enlarging lens for 4x5 around 60$ on eBay. This will permit higher magnification ratio. Buy enlarging lens, they are so cheap now, don't use camera lens.
Difference between the 138 and 138S are minors, see here http://www.durst-pro-usa.com/5x7_comparison%20guide.htm.
Ask the seller to show you how to move the baseboard, you will see if everything work smoothly, same for the head.
Good luck and have fun with this enlarger and large format camera.

[Mikuda]

Hi, so I got it! It was 350 bucks. No laticos and only one 210mm lens but it looks almost like new so I think its good deal. No shipping too cause it was local pickup.

Durst-usa site shows that "138" was wall mounted and 138S was with stand ("S" for Stand?)
My unit has stand but plaque show it's 138 so maybe it's a mix ;)
Here is actual plaque:
http://www.mikuda.pl/download/Durst138.JPG

One more question, in latico combinations shown above for 6x6cm and 4x5 inch there are listed laticos number 180 while on durst-usa site there are 200.
Do you think it's important difference or may I use 200?
I never saw 180 on any e-bay auctions.

BTW if You have some spare 130-200-240 latico combination I might be interested ;)