What is your method for making digital negatives?

[Larry McNeil]

I know a lot of you make digital negatives for various alternative print processes. The last time I made digital negatives was about four years ago, and things have likely gotten better since then. I made digital negatives for palladium and platinum prints and it was exceptionally difficult to make good negatives then. I had loads of flat prints with awful tonal ranges and the ratio for reject prints was astronomical.

At any rate, I assume that it is easier to make high quality digital negatives now. What process do you use and what media do you print on to make your negatives? Do you follow an established method or have you come up with your own solutions? Any current books, articles or websites to recommend for making digital negatives?

Thank you in advance,

Larry McNeil

[sanking]

I know a lot of you make digital negatives for various alternative print processes. The last time I made digital negatives was about four years ago, and things have likely gotten better since then. I made digital negatives for palladium and platinum prints and it was exceptionally difficult to make good negatives then. I had loads of flat prints with awful tonal ranges and the ratio for reject prints was astronomical.

At any rate, I assume that it is easier to make high quality digital negatives now. What process do you use and what media do you print on to make your negatives? Do you follow an established method or have you come up with your own solutions? Any current books, articles or websites to recommend for making digital negatives?

Thank you in advance,

Larry McNeil

Most people appear to use one of the following systems.

The first two methods, which involve making and applying a correction .acv curve in Photoshop, are about equally easy (or difficult) to learn. The third method is based on QTR and involves creating a correction profile for the printer.

Persons who own and use RIPs other than QTR may devise and use their own profiles.

All three systems work fine, but of the three PDN is IMO the easiest to learn and use, QTR is the most complicated.

I personally used PDN for several years, then tried and switched to QTR, but more recently switched back to PDN.

Sandy King


PDN
http://www.precisiondigitalnegatives.com/

RNP
http://www.inkjetnegative.com/images/RNP/rnp.htm

QTR
http://www.ronreeder.com/

[venchka]

I was asking the same question relative to the Canon iPF 500 that is coming my way in a week. Does the PDN method work with the inks in the 5000?

[sanking]

I was asking the same question relative to the Canon iPF 500 that is coming my way in a week. Does the PDN method work with the inks in the 5000?

Most likely it will work with PDN but it is impossible for me to say for sure without having actually tested the machine. I have heard of some people who have used previous generations of Canon pigment printers with PDN to make digital negatives so unless the ink set is entirely different there is a good chance the iPF 5000 will work.

Sandy King

[Jim collum]

QTR will only work for Epson printers.. I've been using the PDN method with the HP z3100 i have, and get great results. The hardest part is figuring out the best ink combo to use for 'grainless' prints

[AF-ULF]

Check out www.digital-negatives.com. It is a website created by Ron Reeded to support his book "Digital Negatives, Using Photoshop to Create Digital Negatives for Silver and Alternative Process Printing." By clicking the tab in the right side bar, you can download Chapters 4 & 5 from the book to see if this system is right for you.

Link for chapter 5: http://www.digital-negatives.com/index_chap5.htm

[Jeffrey Sipress]

I'm not sure what digital negatives are or why i need to use them. I've been a digital photographer since it was invented and seem to be doing fine using photoshop. (I shoot 4x5 a lot, too!).

[Jim collum]

negatives printed on transparency material using an inkjet printer for contact printing alt process (platinum, carbon, etc) or silver paper. Going to any of the above links, or googling "digital negatives" will give you more in depth info on them

[sanking]

I'm not sure what digital negatives are or why i need to use them. I've been a digital photographer since it was invented and seem to be doing fine using photoshop. (I shoot 4x5 a lot, too!).

Jeffrey,

People who make digital negatives use Photoshop to prepare their files for printing digital negatives. Some shoot with digital cameras, others with film and scan the negatives. Digital negatives are used for printing with alternative processes like carbon transfer, cyanotype, palladium and platinum, vandyke, kallitype, etc.

Sandy King

[Colin Graham]

QTR is a pretty amazing piece of software. I've used it for 5 processes now with the 3800, can't seem to stump it. It is a little complicated at first, but fairly intuitive and very efficient once you get familiar with the routine. Well worth the $50 donation.

[PViapiano]

I use QTR here, and found Ron Reeder's site extremely helpful in getting started along with Kerik Kouklis' invaluable advice.

[Jeremy Moore]

QTR is a pretty amazing piece of software. I've used it for 5 processes now with the 3800, can't seem to stump it. It is a little complicated at first, but fairly intuitive and very efficient once you get familiar with the routine. Well worth the $50 donation.

Agreed. I use QTR.

[Jeffrey Sipress]

Thanks for the answers!

[Larry McNeil]

Hi Sandy,

Thanks for the very insightful information. I'm curious as to what attracted you back to PDN. I have a couple of friends who prefer that method too.

Larry


Most people appear to use one of the following systems.

The first two methods, which involve making and applying a correction .acv curve in Photoshop, are about equally easy (or difficult) to learn. The third method is based on QTR and involves creating a correction profile for the printer.
I personally used PDN for several years, then tried and switched to QTR, but more recently switched back to PDN.

Sandy King


PDN
http://www.precisiondigitalnegatives.com/

RNP
http://www.inkjetnegative.com/images/RNP/rnp.htm

QTR
http://www.ronreeder.com/

[sanking]

Hi Sandy,

Thanks for the very insightful information. I'm curious as to what attracted you back to PDN. I have a couple of friends who prefer that method too.

Larry

Several reasons.

First, in spite of extensive testing of QTR with the Epson 3800 I was never able to get rid of the grainy look in my carbon transfer printing. I switched from MK to PK and tried many different profiles with the right blocking density but regardless of what I did my prints looked too grainy for taste. Perhaps if I had used another half ton of Pictorico and wasted several hundred more hours in testing I would have eventually found a profile that printed smoothly but alas, there is only so much time! And deep down I have come to suspect that the Epson driver is capable of smoother printing than QTR.

Second, PDN is a relatively simple method and with reasonable care one can derive a correction curve in two or three hours of testing. And on the second try I found a PDN color that printed in carbon transfer with no grain, as smooth as if printing with my LF negatives.

Third. I originally started using QTR because I was convinced by the argument that applying the corrections directly to the hardware with a printer profile, as in QTR, offered the possibility of greater control of tonal values than applying a correction .acv curve in Photoshop. In practice I did not find this to be the case and the prints I have made with .acv corrections curves are just as good in terms of tonal control as those made with QTR profiles.

QTR is a great software for making prints on papers, especially with split-toning, but for making digital negatives I found it to be less than perfect for my own work. And I would emphasize, my opinions are based on my work alone as I am aware of several experienced alternative printers who are very happy with QTR.


Sandy King

[MaximusM3]

Several reasons.

First, in spite of extensive testing of QTR with the Epson 3800 I was never able to get rid of the grainy look in my carbon transfer printing. I switched from MK to PK and tried many different profiles with the right blocking density but regardless of what I did my prints looked too grainy for taste. Perhaps if I had used another half ton of Pictorico and wasted several hundred more hours in testing I would have eventually found a profile that printed smoothly but alas, there is only so much time! And deep down I have come to suspect that the Epson driver is capable of smoother printing than QTR.

Second, PDN is a relatively simple method and with reasonable care one can derive a correction curve in two or three hours of testing. And on the second try I found a PDN color that printed in carbon transfer with no grain, as smooth as if printing with my LF negatives.

Third. I originally started using QTR because I was convinced by the argument that applying the corrections directly to the hardware with a printer profile, as in QTR, offered the possibility of greater control of tonal values than applying a correction .acv curve in Photoshop. In practice I did not find this to be the case and the prints I have made with .acv corrections curves are just as good in terms of tonal control as those made with QTR profiles.

QTR is a great software for making prints on papers, especially with split-toning, but for making digital negatives I found it to be less than perfect for my own work. And I would emphasize, my opinions are based on my work alone as I am aware of several experienced alternative printers who are very happy with QTR.


Sandy King


Hi Sandy,

I've always followed your writing and love your work. Just found this old thread as I am looking to embark into making digital negatives. I am using exclusively Jon's Piezography with two Epsons 3880 (one for sepia matte and one for selenium/warm neutral gloss). Can I use K7 inks with PDN or do I need to stick with QTR and drive myself crazy wasting Pictorico and ink?

Thanks very much for your help.

Max

www.maxmarinucci.com

[sanking]

Max,

I feel confident that you could make good digital negatives with QTR and the K7 selenium/warm neutral gloss set. The problem is I don't know anyone who is doing this so you will have to start from scratch in making your profile with QTR. You might have noticed that I am currently working on a profile myself for digital negatives the Epson 7600 and the K7 selenium set, though I am trying to use the matte black as I would also like to use the printer for making matte digital inkjet prints. The idea of using four to seven shades of gray to make a digital negative has in theory some clear advantages, but to translate this to reality may take some work.

PDN is a multi-component system and you could use parts of it regardless of the ink set in the printer, but in practice it is designed as a complete workflow where you are using color inks and the Epson driver.

Sandy

[MaximusM3]

Max,

I feel confident that you could make good digital negatives with QTR and the K7 selenium/warm neutral gloss set. The problem is I don't know anyone who is doing this so you will have to start from scratch in making your profile with QTR. You might have noticed that I am currently working on a profile myself for digital negatives the Epson 7600 and the K7 selenium set, though I am trying to use the matte black as I would also like to use the printer for making matte digital inkjet prints. The idea of using four to seven shades of gray to make a digital negative has in theory some clear advantages, but to translate this to reality may take some work.

PDN is a multi-component system and you could use parts of it regardless of the ink set in the printer, but in practice it is designed as a complete workflow where you are using color inks and the Epson driver.

Sandy

Thank you, Sandy, for the speedy reply! Was not aware of your latest effort on the profile with the selenium set but I would be very interested in hearing more about it since I have the same set up in the gloss printer with matte in the first position to be able to do matte prints with the set as well. I guess I could always ditch the sepia in the other 3880 and turn it back to Epson to use PDN but I really love that ink set. Do you feel that is worth the effort of doing that with PDN instead of fighting QTR or PDN with Piezography? Decisions, decisions..:)

Best,

Max

[sanking]

Thank you, Sandy, for the speedy reply! Was not aware of your latest effort on the profile with the selenium set but I would be very interested in hearing more about it since I have the same set up in the gloss printer with matte in the first position to be able to do matte prints with the set as well. I guess I could always ditch the sepia in the other 3880 and turn it back to Epson to use PDN but I really love that ink set. Do you feel that is worth the effort of doing that with PDN instead of fighting QTR or PDN with Piezography? Decisions, decisions..:)

Best,

Max

Max,

The thread is here if you are interested. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=68303

I really can not answer the question about ultimate image quality re: QTR with K7 Piezography versus PDN as I just don't have enough experience yet. I have made some very nice prints with digital negatives with QTR and the Epson UC inks, and some very nice prints with digital negatives with PDN. Without question the PDN work flow is easier to master, unless you can find someone with a good QTR profile for the process you want to use. Unfortunatlely I just don't know anyone with a good QTR profile for printing digital negatives with K7 inks with either the 7600 or 3800 (3880).


Sandy

[sanking]

Matt,

I forgot to mention one thing about making digital negatives with K7 Piezography inks, and that is the fact that it is not possible to edit the K7 profiles with the regular QTR tools supplied by Roy Harrington. Instead, the K7 profiles were created by Vermong Inkjet with their own software, which I don't believe is available to an individual And even if it were Jon Cone suggests that editing the complex curves would not be feasible for most people.

At this time I have someone working with me in creating a digital negative profile for my carbon printing but it has turned out to be a fairly complicated endeavor. I must admit that had I know that the K7 profiles could not be edited with the regular QTR tool set I might have decided to stay with the Epson color ink set, or substitute that with the InkjetMall color ink set.

Sandy

[joncone@cone-editions.com]

Sandy,

The software we built here to make QTR curves chooses 256 precise points from over 64,000 possible points for each of the seven curves that make up a single QTR K7 curve. As a result we do not have three edit points to allow for QTR editing. But, the result of such precision is output that is significantly smoother and as perfect as one can get in a linearized output.

The only curve I have made for digital negatives is for the Epson R2400 printer which produces 13" wide films. The curve is for Pictorico and produces a gamma 2.2 linearization from the dMin of the film to a dMax of nearly 2.9. Within that range of tone, you could build a Photoshop curve to limit the inks into a useful range of density as well as apply a contrast change that relates to your particular paper and chemistry.

The 2400 curve for film took me three days to build...and I ended up making two ink modifications to two shades which are easy to do on your own. I am certainly willing to share this with anyone who wishes to have a digital negative system. Unfortunately, the R2400 QTR driver is quite different than the 7600, 7800 or 7880... or other printers for that matter.

I do not know how other customers of mine are making their dig negs with K7 and they are not readily sharing their information.

The basics of using QTR tools is to build seven overlapping curves of density that are nearly linear and then to process them through the QTR tools for linearization. There is ample documentation on that process. However, there are very few instruments that can be used other than a densitometer for film. QTR attaches to the EyeOne spectro... And the EyeOne does not read film with the QTR tools. So there is the challenge to use hand entered data from a densitometer.

I happened to use an old x-rite autoscan that reads strip film but had to use a Mac with OS9 in order to have a functioning driver. We keep this old Mac just for this piece of outdated hardware.

Having said that, a lot of QTR users trying to make film negs are assuming that the work is done in Photoshop. The first step actually, is to configure QTR as a linearized process using QTR curves (which have no similarity to Photoshop curves, and serve no similar purpose.) The QTR curve controls the output of each of the inkjet heads...and you need all seven working in unison to produce a smooth output.

A reconditioned R2400 printer and my pictorico curve will give you a base that when printed with a gray tone scale - will produce a smooth artifact free gradation from dMin to dMax. It will provide a traditional opaque style negative (like silver) - rather than UV blocking...

How to get something like this for your 7600 - I'm not sure how the R2400 curve would translate into being modified - even though I can modify it easy enough. I can also give you the recipe for the two shades mixing... but it's not a definite because the QTR driver is so different between these two printers. I would think it could possible work.

When I made the R2400 neg system and announced to the thousands of Piezographers if there was interest to make turnkey neg systems...there were just a handful who wanted to use it. Not enough for the development time involved. Most people using Piezography are very happy with the output - especially the glossy systems which are true replicants for air dried silver print. I suppose I should have asked users who still had their darkrooms instead - the enthusiasm may have been higher.

I wish I could help you more directly with your particular printer. We no longer have functioning 7600 K7 printers either in our studio or the r&d lab - so I can't even offer to devote the time to making a K7 film curve for you.

If the person who is helping you requires some assistance - have him contact me.

Best regards,

Jon Cone
Piezography
http://www.inkjetmall.com


Matt,

I forgot to mention one thing about making digital negatives with K7 Piezography inks, and that is the fact that it is not possible to edit the K7 profiles with the regular QTR tools supplied by Roy Harrington. Instead, the K7 profiles were created by Vermong Inkjet with their own software, which I don't believe is available to an individual And even if it were Jon Cone suggests that editing the complex curves would not be feasible for most people.

At this time I have someone working with me in creating a digital negative profile for my carbon printing but it has turned out to be a fairly complicated endeavor. I must admit that had I know that the K7 profiles could not be edited with the regular QTR tool set I might have decided to stay with the Epson color ink set, or substitute that with the InkjetMall color ink set.

Sandy

[sanking]

Jon,

Thanks for your remarks. I have sent you a personal email about this.

I recognize that the profiling is complicated but it seems to me that it would be as easy to create good K7 profiles for digital negatives as for prints. You really only need three things. 1) linearize the output on Pictorico, 2) provide a user mechanism to adjust transmission Dmax for specific processes, and 3) provide a use mechanism for inserting a curve into the profile to linearize for speific processes.

Sandy

[Zero_Equals_Infinity]

Jon,

Thanks for your remarks. I have sent you a personal email about this.

I recognize that the profiling is complicated but it seems to me that it would be as easy to create good K7 profiles for digital negatives as for prints. You really only need three things. 1) linearize the output on Pictorico, 2) provide a user mechanism to adjust transmission Dmax for specific processes, and 3) provide a use mechanism for inserting a curve into the profile to linearize for speific processes.

Sandy

An old conversation, but a good one.

I suspect that choosing to use the closest one of Jon's curves (1.4 to 1.8) will get one very close with respect to proper Dmax. I might consider blending the two closest curves by applying a weight to the values in each curve if to obtain a curve that covers the full Dmin to Dmax range. (e.g. If I required a range of 1.76, I may derive a curve based on giving a weight of .6 to the 1.8 curve, and .4 to the 1.7 curve and summing for all values for each ink. Assuming no non-linearities between the two curves, that may work reasonably.) Alternatively, the error of using one curve is at most .05 (1/6) of a stop, and depending upon whether shadow or highlights is where I want to compromise, my exposure time could be altered accordingly. Linearization, could be realised by the usual method of measuring a printed step wedge and applying an inversion either in Photoshop as a final step before saving an image for printing through QTR, or to the values of the values of whichever of Jon's curves you are using. My inclination would be to use a Photoshop curve because I don't want to program a cubic spline interpolation into a C program to create a new curve. I suppose it would be easy enough, but I have not done that type of programming in years, and the interpolation would need to be applied to each ink curve which could cause it's own problems as the sum and the parts may deviate somewhat in practice. I won't make a distinction between the two linearizations you mention, as to me it is reducible to a linearization which takes into account the effects of the film and the process.

P.S. I just got the inkset installed for Method 3 yesterday, and hope to fun some step wedges through later today.

[sanking]

An old conversation, but a good one.

I suspect that choosing to use the closest one of Jon's curves (1.4 to 1.8) will get one very close with respect to proper Dmax. I might consider blending the two closest curves by applying a weight to the values in each curve if to obtain a curve that covers the full Dmin to Dmax range. (e.g. If I required a range of 1.76, I may derive a curve based on giving a weight of .6 to the 1.8 curve, and .4 to the 1.7 curve and summing for all values for each ink. Assuming no non-linearities between the two curves, that may work reasonably.) Alternatively, the error of using one curve is at most .05 (1/6) of a stop, and depending upon whether shadow or highlights is where I want to compromise, my exposure time could be altered accordingly. Linearization, could be realised by the usual method of measuring a printed step wedge and applying an inversion either in Photoshop as a final step before saving an image for printing through QTR, or to the values of the values of whichever of Jon's curves you are using. My inclination would be to use a Photoshop curve because I don't want to program a cubic spline interpolation into a C program to create a new curve. I suppose it would be easy enough, but I have not done that type of programming in years, and the interpolation would need to be applied to each ink curve which could cause it's own problems as the sum and the parts may deviate somewhat in practice. I won't make a distinction between the two linearizations you mention, as to me it is reducible to a linearization which takes into account the effects of the film and the process.

P.S. I just got the inkset installed for Method 3 yesterday, and hope to fun some step wedges through later today.

In practice Method 3 works well for making digital negatives, using an .acv curve for final linearization. The range of contrast in the profiles provided by Jon Cone is quite wide, and that together with the fact that there is always some control of contrast with process, makes it pretty easy to choose and adapt the right profile.

Sandy

[neil poulsen]

Max,

I feel confident that you could make good digital negatives with QTR and the K7 selenium/warm neutral gloss set. The problem is I don't know anyone who is doing this so you will have to start from scratch in making your profile with QTR. You might have noticed that I am currently working on a profile myself for digital negatives the Epson 7600 and the K7 selenium set, though I am trying to use the matte black as I would also like to use the printer for making matte digital inkjet prints. The idea of using four to seven shades of gray to make a digital negative has in theory some clear advantages, but to translate this to reality may take some work.

PDN is a multi-component system and you could use parts of it regardless of the ink set in the printer, but in practice it is designed as a complete workflow where you are using color inks and the Epson driver.

Sandy

Sandy,

Have you encountered with your 7600 the artifact of "gradation lines" that run perpendicular to the print head travel in continuous tone prints with the 7600? (Prints w/smooth gradations.) This artifact supposedly occurred with the earlier Epson 2400, 2200, 4000, 7600, etc., printers. The R1800 (or R1900?) and the 3800 printers did not show this artifact. I sure saw it with my 4000. It was my understanding from Bostick-Sullivan that this artifact was an early printer issue seen in printing digital negatives that was not apparent in standard printing on paper.

They were seen in continuous tone prints from digital negatives, like portraits with smooth backgrounds, because the artifact was faint enough to be camouflaged by prints with more complex subject matter.

[neil poulsen]

I took a workshop from and used Dan Burkholder's method for creating digital negatives. He's the person who popularized digital negatives and did a lot of the early development work. I got some nice results from this and even made a few negatives for another pt-pd printer. After printing, they came out really nice. This included methods for pt-pd, cyanotypes, maybe some others now.

If you purchase his CD, it contains the curves he himself developed for some of the standard printers used to make digital negatives. (e.g. 3800 and 3880, 2200, 2400, etc.) So, there isn't the testing needed for other methods. The primary emphasis in his class and from his book and the CD is learning how to apply the curves in he developed in Photoshop.

It makes for a good start in printing digital negatives. One could try more advanced methods QTR, PDN, etc., later on.

[sanking]

Sandy,

Have you encountered with your 7600 the artifact of "gradation lines" that run perpendicular to the print head travel in continuous tone prints with the 7600? (Prints w/smooth gradations.) This artifact supposedly occurred with the earlier Epson 2400, 2200, 4000, 7600, etc., printers. The R1800 (or R1900?) and the 3800 printers did not show this artifact. I sure saw it with my 4000. It was my understanding from Bostick-Sullivan that this artifact was an early printer issue seen in printing digital negatives that was not apparent in standard printing on paper.

They were seen in continuous tone prints from digital negatives, like portraits with smooth backgrounds, because the artifact was faint enough to be camouflaged by prints with more complex subject matter.

Yes, I have encountered the banding that runs perpendicular to the print head when using the Epson 7600, and the 2200 and 4000. Curiously, these printers make perfect B&W monochrome prints, but when you invert the values and print on Pictorico or some other OHP you see the lines. This makes it difficult, if not impossible, to make acceptable digital negatives with subjects that have large areas of smooth tonal values, say sky or portraits. Fortunately most of the current generation of printers beginning with the x800 series, do not give this type of banding.

At this time I have my 7600 set up with a K7 Cone ink set, and it produces great monochrome prints on papers. But I use the 3880 for making digital negatives. At some point I am going to replace the 7600 with an 8 or 9 slot Epson printer that will allow me to make both K7 prints on paper and digital negatives without swapping out the cartridges.

Sandy

[bob carnie]

Hi Sandy

When you come to TO for the course you are running we will have a Epson 7800 for you to use with the class. Ron Reeder will be in the week before you and he will set it up for us.
I am hoping to have him help me with the Lambda silver negs before you get here so you can give that a go after the workshop if you like.

info on our workshops are at www.defendthedarkroom.ca

Bob

[sanking]

Hi Bob,

The 7800 will work fine for digital negatives. If I could fine one locally with low use at a good price I would grab it for myself.

Offering the Lambda silver negatives will be a good service if you can get that up and running.

Sandy

[bob carnie]

We should be ready by the time so you can tag an extra day and make a neg or two to take back to your darkroom .


Hi Bob,

The 7800 will work fine for digital negatives. If I could fine one locally with low use at a good price I would grab it for myself.

Offering the Lambda silver negatives will be a good service if you can get that up and running.

Sandy

[Andrew O'Neill]

Have you encountered with your 7600 the artifact of "gradation lines" that run perpendicular to the print head travel in continuous tone prints with the 7600? (Prints w/smooth gradations.) This artifact supposedly occurred with the earlier Epson 2400, 2200, 4000, 7600, etc., printers. The R1800 (or R1900?) and the 3800 printers did not show this artifact. I sure saw it with my 4000. It was my understanding from Bostick-Sullivan that this artifact was an early printer issue seen in printing digital negatives that was not apparent in standard printing on paper.

They were seen in continuous tone prints from digital negatives, like portraits with smooth backgrounds, because the artifact was faint enough to be camouflaged by prints with more complex subject matter.

I have noticed this with the 4000. That is why I have to be very selective when choosing a negative for carbon transfer printing. Smooth areas are okay as long as they are middle gray and darker.

[Zero_Equals_Infinity]

Bob,

The idea of silver negatives produced with a Lambda printer is a totally amazing one. All I can say is, where do I sign-up, what is the minimum order, and how much per square foot? Other than that, please make some step wedge negatives for people to buy and take home so that we can create correction curves to apply to the negative in Photoshop before having you print it.

[Jim collum]

First.. personal experience with the Lambda silver prints from Bob.. best b/w digital output I've seen. I highly recommend them.

Second.. has anyone experience with Jon Cone's new inkset/curve for QTR combination specifically designed for digital negatives? One of the battles I've always fought with the photoshop applied curves has been how extreme the curve ends up being.. with subtleties in the highlights difficult to get right (it can be done.. but it doesn't seem that the accuracy is there in the curves tool to dial it in with a lot of precision).



Bob,
The idea of silver negatives produced with a Lambda printer is a totally amazing one. All I can say is, where do I sign-up, what is the minimum order, and how much per square foot? Other than that, please make some step wedge negatives for people to buy and take home so that we can create correction curves to apply to the negative in Photoshop before having you print it.

[Zero_Equals_Infinity]

I just installed the inkset on a 3880 to be a dedicated digital negative printer.

I hope to get into the darkroom on the weekend to fire off some step wedges. In the past, I have had the devil's own time with the K3 ultrachrome inkset due to poor UV blocking of most inks. The results were underwhelming. I am hoping that using Jon's Method 3 will enable me to spend time printing images instead of continuously working to get a good curve.

[bob carnie]

Ron Reeder is coming to Toronto next month to give digital neg from pictorico on our Epson 7800.
But he is also going to help me with the silver negs , as will Sandy the following week.
Once I am confident on outputting for others we will have a Press and Go price available just like our silver paper and RA4 and Ink on paper.... www.pressandgo.ca at this point there is not a price point.
The benifit is IMO the blocking power of the silver negative as well the archival aspects.
Also I found in my own testing that just looking at the negative and adjusting curves manually in PS was all I needed, but for an service output for others we need to be more sophisticated with custom curves or profiles.
Minimum order would be 3ft of film on a 20 inch roll.



Bob,

The idea of silver negatives produced with a Lambda printer is a totally amazing one. All I can say is, where do I sign-up, what is the minimum order, and how much per square foot? Other than that, please make some step wedge negatives for people to buy and take home so that we can create correction curves to apply to the negative in Photoshop before having you print it.

[sanking]

First.. personal experience with the Lambda silver prints from Bob.. best b/w digital output I've seen. I highly recommend them.

Second.. has anyone experience with Jon Cone's new inkset/curve for QTR combination specifically designed for digital negatives? One of the battles I've always fought with the photoshop applied curves has been how extreme the curve ends up being.. with subtleties in the highlights difficult to get right (it can be done.. but it doesn't seem that the accuracy is there in the curves tool to dial it in with a lot of precision).

I have used Jon Cone's Methodology 3 inkset/profiles with the Epson 3800 for carbon transfer printing.This methodology allows the user to select from one of five curves that produce UV blocking ranging from about a maximum of log 2.2 to about log 2.8, which is enough to cover most alternative processes. For silver printing the effective log density range is about 1.2 to 1.8, which would cover most silver papers. The negatives produced with this method have very little grain and virtually no digital artifacts. However, to produce a completely linear result I had to use .acv correction curves. The curve was not very extreme since the profiles allows selection of the correction Dmax.

One problem I had with the inks was they they did not dry on Pictorico quite as fast as the Epson K3 inks. This was something of a problem with printers that use the so-called pizza wheels to advance the OHP, most of the small consummer ones. This would not be a problem with higher end printers that have suction systems to hold the paper.

Sandy

[sanking]

Ron Reeder is coming to Toronto next month to give digital neg from pictorico on our Epson 7800.
But he is also going to help me with the silver negs , as will Sandy the following week.
Once I am confident on outputting for others we will have a Press and Go price available just like our silver paper and RA4 and Ink on paper.... www.pressandgo.ca at this point there is not a price point.
The benifit is IMO the blocking power of the silver negative as well the archival aspects.
Also I found in my own testing that just looking at the negative and adjusting curves manually in PS was all I needed, but for an service output for others we need to be more sophisticated with custom curves or profiles.
Minimum order would be 3ft of film on a 20 inch roll.

Bob,

Whatever method you use to linearize for printing with the Lamda should work. The only complication is that when doing this for customers to make digital negatives the curve will need to be inverted from what I assume you do when printing directly positives on the silver paper.

Sandy

[bob carnie]

Linearizesing the Lambda is done automatically and it generates a 21 step wedge as you already know. For me I just do a couple of test negatives with curve shapes I think will work for a particular process, and go from there, I am hoping you and Ron can show me how to make it very predictable.

For instance, we have had great success making neg's for silver contact printing.(not to be confused with neg's to go in enlarger) basically it was just a simple matter of making one negative, contact it on Ilford Warmtone with a #2 filter, finding the density that best represented the enlarger print.
Then making adjustments to the file by increasing or decreasing the curve where I though was needed and then sending the positive file over to the lambda.
At the lambda stage I can make a positive or negative film with the same ease and the same 21 step process to linearize.

For those who are well adapt at looking at negatives this approach should be acceptable for the old farts.

A more defined profile that gets the younger generation in the ball park the first time with minor tweaking at the process stage is where I am hoping to get to with your and Ron's help. Some of our target market have never seen a negative or made a wet print , but they are well adapted to profiles and PS .


I have Chris H from Rochester who has been working with Ron Morey and GEG workshops . He will assisting both of you for the time you are here, he is interested in making the colour carbon tissues for us so we are bringing him in for 14 days to meet you and Ron Reeder. This young man has already made some very nice silver emulsions on different papers under Ron Morey's guidance and mentoring.. I am really looking forward to this session as I believe we are closer to my goals.

Ron Morey was great to meet and I would love to organize a GEH weekend to see the collection , pick his brain and that of Mark Ostermann.
I know that between Steve Shermans group and people from Toronto we could make a great weekend of education and look at beautiful prints.



Bob,

Whatever method you use to linearize for printing with the Lamda should work. The only complication is that when doing this for customers to make digital negatives the curve will need to be inverted from what I assume you do when printing directly positives on the silver paper.

Sandy

[sanking]

I have Chris H from Rochester who has been working with Ron Morey and GEG workshops . He will assisting both of you for the time you are here, he is interested in making the colour carbon tissues for us so we are bringing him in for 14 days to meet you and Ron Reeder. This young man has already made some very nice silver emulsions on different papers under Ron Morey's guidance and mentoring.. I am really looking forward to this session as I believe we are closer to my goals.

Ron Morey was great to meet and I would love to organize a GEH weekend to see the collection , pick his brain and that of Mark Ostermann.
I know that between Steve Shermans group and people from Toronto we could make a great weekend of education and look at beautiful prints.

Bob,

I think you mean Ron Mowery, right? Ron is indeed a great person to know, with a great wealth of information about films, having worked in that area many years for Kodak as an engineer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4q0Ryh9pBE

Not sure that Ron Morey, www.ronmoreyshow.com/, would contribute very much to our wealth of information about films.

Those who long for purity in their photography should become more familiar with Ron's emulsion making. It would allow them to free themselves from "cheater" items like factory coated film and paper.

Sandy

[bob carnie]

Yes indeed Ron Mowery
please do not tell him I mixed him up he would not be pleased.
He was a pleasure to spend an afternoon with and I want to spend more time with him.
I saw a few 11x14 prints with Ron's emulsion on watercolour that really reminded me of Ektalure , which in the graded days was one of my favourite papers.
It was coated perfectly. But I will still use the "cheater" products until I earn my 10th dan black belt in alternative process..
say hi to Sam, I won't see him in May.

I think I am still on my white belt with yellow tips.


Bob,

I think you mean Ron Mowery, right? Ron is indeed a great person to know, with a great wealth of information about films, having worked in that area many years for Kodak as an engineer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4q0Ryh9pBE

Not sure that Ron Morey, www.ronmoreyshow.com/, would contribute very much to our wealth of information about films.

Those who long for purity in their photography should become more familiar with Ron's emulsion making. It would allow them to free themselves from "cheater" items like factory coated film and paper.

Sandy

[Zero_Equals_Infinity]

Yes indeed Ron Mowery
please do not tell him I mixed him up he would not be pleased.
He was a pleasure to spend an afternoon with and I want to spend more time with him.
I saw a few 11x14 prints with Ron's emulsion on watercolour that really reminded me of Ektalure , which in the graded days was one of my favourite papers.
It was coated perfectly. But I will still use the "cheater" products until I earn my 10th dan black belt in alternative process..
say hi to Sam, I won't see him in May.

I think I am still on my white belt with yellow tips.

If that is where you are, I am still waiting to be invited to bow at the door of the dojo.

This is a truly exciting time to approach alternate processes, and Bob a tremendous thank-you for your hard work and willingness to invest in making these processes accessible to more people. As I may have mentioned, for once I am grateful to be in Toronto, where we will have a world leading resource and centre for the advancement of alternate processes. I have just broken my teeth on learning the basics of Pd/Pt printing, and encountered obstacle after obstacle in setting up, (pizza wheels, not hitting dmax on film / dmin on paper, black dot syndrome, the whole bloody gamut of biblical plagues adapted for the Pd/Pt printer.)

Oh, on smaller printers like the Epson R3880, the pizza wheel problm is avoidable by using the front end manual load feature. (I always attach the Pictorico to a piece of cardboard to reduce the chances of jamming, (just take the leading and trailing edge of the film to the cardboard. One thing to be aware of, and I know it sounds like hocus-pokus, is that the correction curve varies based on front-end loading and rear loading. I did not believe it either until Kerik Kouklis (see http://www.kerik.com/new/ ) published measurements showing the difference. (I should have sacrifices a chicken to the gods of alternate processes.) ... Irving Penn, father of great prints, pray for me now and at the moment I enter the darkroom.

[bob carnie]

My very first foray into digital neg's was a workshop Kerik and Ike presented at Photoshop, it was an eye opening experience for me and opened the door to digital neg's for me to explore.
I then saw Ron Reeder in action and it was simply amazing how he had students producing killer pt pd prints in only two days.
About 20 years ago I took a week workshop at Maine workshops and was introduced to the Ultra Stable process. My friend John Bentley at that time started down
that wormhole and then met Todd Gangler and Charles Berger. This process is being reworked by many workers (hopefully Paulette and I here at Elevator) included.
This colour process is the answer to colour stability that most all other colour processes lack. Gum Bichromate is an exception.
Our lab started a platinum service for the Toronto community and due to the cost of making enlarged dupes from contact dupes , making the prints became a issue for the purpose of selling, we were too slow and too expensive for the local photographers.
We never lost our interest in the service , but decided to start purchasing the equipment so that we could be self sufficient for monochrome carbon, colour carbon and pt pd. This included Scanners , Mac Computers, Training in PS, the Lambda , the dedicated Processor, The Film itself and yes digital inkjet machines to do pictorico neg's so we can do side by side comparisons with silver film.
It has taken a lot of time and financial pain to slowly get to the point where we are today..
Though we have made our fair share of prints, in alt over the last few years, I have been on a quest to nail three processes at the same time, I feel with confidence I have nailed the silver process, but my comment about white belt with yellow tips is pretty accurate. I feel the next few years will be our time to really put out some nice prints and without the help of some great mentors, Sandy King leading the way I feel we would be years behind.
He has graciously came to Toronto , many times and we have traveled to him, to get our assistants, and even some clients up on the process which Sandy is a master.

If I can get the silver film to work the way I think I can consistently , I do not think pictorico is the way for me. But believe me when I say it , Sandy's and Ron's prints that are here
in our shop from digital ink negatives are what I am aspiring for, so in no way am I dissing the inkjet method as I know it works wonderfully.
Since I have the equipment to do silver I am going to embrace it completely so that from a business side of view the square footage that our darkroom takes up is being funded by film and wet processes so adding this to our list of services is a prudent step.

I agree this is truly an exciting time for printmaking as the current options are mind-boggling with various people going down unique wormholes and coming up with great images.
For example.... Monty McCutchen here on this site exposes with a 20 x24 camera and makes IMHO the finest wet plate images currently produced. His time too make images is limited but man you have to see his work , simply outstanding.
My goal is to combine alternative processes with registration methods using punched aluminum for the support to stop shrinkage, using materials that can allow me to get final print off the support.
I believe that the silver film method I have worked with is the answer for me as I have already separated into the four CMYK channels with ease, and with Channel Blending very interesting combinations are at ones finger tips.
Sam Wang in SC comes to mind , his work with mixing processes and using PS to his advantage is outstanding.

I am really interested in discussing film separation negatives with workers here that are very digitally literate. Specifically the areas of applying stochastic screens at the PS stage and how the relationship/differences/ advantages between continuous tone film (Ilford Ortho 25) and that of Camera Film for Image setters. I am of the mind that once the screen is applied the coursness of it overruns the delicate pixel pattern that is in a given image. This then allows for what Mr Berger always says , that a hard dot is required to hold the highlights.
His premise is that if I use continuous tone film without a screen pattern my highlights will bleed and not hold. My thoughts are that the Lambda is really just a big image setter and if I apply the screen then I have a hard dot.
I have put this question to many people with very mixed results,
The other idea is to put graphics line film in the lambda and get it to work, which the people at Durst have never heard of. Or either accept less perfect prints, or buy an used image setter and accept the dot patter that would be visible by loupe.

Where are you located in Toronto, and do you take advantage of Gallery 44 or do you have your own darkroom to make the magic?


If that is where you are, I am still waiting to be invited to bow at the door of the dojo.

This is a truly exciting time to approach alternate processes, and Bob a tremendous thank-you for your hard work and willingness to invest in making these processes accessible to more people. As I may have mentioned, for once I am grateful to be in Toronto, where we will have a world leading resource and centre for the advancement of alternate processes. I have just broken my teeth on learning the basics of Pd/Pt printing, and encountered obstacle after obstacle in setting up, (pizza wheels, not hitting dmax on film / dmin on paper, black dot syndrome, the whole bloody gamut of biblical plagues adapted for the Pd/Pt printer.)

Oh, on smaller printers like the Epson R3880, the pizza wheel problm is avoidable by using the front end manual load feature. (I always attach the Pictorico to a piece of cardboard to reduce the chances of jamming, (just take the leading and trailing edge of the film to the cardboard. One thing to be aware of, and I know it sounds like hocus-pokus, is that the correction curve varies based on front-end loading and rear loading. I did not believe it either until Kerik Kouklis (see http://www.kerik.com/new/ ) published measurements showing the difference. (I should have sacrifices a chicken to the gods of alternate processes.) ... Irving Penn, father of great prints, pray for me now and at the moment I enter the darkroom.

[Zero_Equals_Infinity]

Setting up a space to do this type of processing in my own house is something that is beyond me. Fortunately, the Toronto Camera Club has a small darkroom space in the basement, and I have a Nuarc 26-1K setup there. Due to all of the aforementioned issues in my previous message, I recently switched to Jon Cone's Method 3 on a dedicated Epson 3880. I hope to get into the club this weekend to print some step wedges, and am cautiously optimistic that the results will be much improved over the Epson inkset. Our club is located on Mt. Pleasant, south of Eglinton (about 500 metres.) It is my hope that once I have proper correction curves in place that I can stir up some interest in the club membership to try their hand at it. It would really take the club back to its roots, (which extend back to 1888.)

It seems Elevator is just down the road, (Eglinton and Laird), so I will make a point of dropping over to see the facilities, and any work you may have on display. Proper registration for multi-layer work is a challenge due to shrinkage. I look forward to seeing your method, as such methods as gum dichromate require a good registration system. (Ask Ron Reeder to bring some of his multi-layer gum prints. They are stunning. I remember a still life of his that he brought to Contact that just wowed me.) I would love to take Sandy's workshop, and if any spots are still open in April, I will signup. (I have to wait until then to insure that I will have the time available, and if spots are still open, you will hear from me.)

I took Ron Reeder's workshop at Contact two years ago. Since you are of his acquaintance, I have little need to say how intelligent, charming and gracious he is, as you will already know that. The students which signup for his workshop are in for a treat. He is a fine teacher, artist, and gentleman.

And thanks again for your hard work, (not to mention financial risks), to support alternate processes.

[bob carnie]

A member of the Toronto Camera Club has spent a lot of time with Sandy and is a client of mine, He is setting up for Carbon printing at his home.

There will be a couple of spots open in April, I hope that changes and if we are getting close then I will let you know.
Two of Ron Reeders gum over pt pd are on my wall as well as two of Sandy Kings carbons, and Sam Wangs multiple hit images.

Ron is special and if anyone ever gets the chance to see him work I think its worth it.

Setting up a space to do this type of processing in my own house is something that is beyond me. Fortunately, the Toronto Camera Club has a small darkroom space in the basement, and I have a Nuarc 26-1K setup there. Due to all of the aforementioned issues in my previous message, I recently switched to Jon Cone's Method 3 on a dedicated Epson 3880. I hope to get into the club this weekend to print some step wedges, and am cautiously optimistic that the results will be much improved over the Epson inkset. Our club is located on Mt. Pleasant, south of Eglinton (about 500 metres.) It is my hope that once I have proper correction curves in place that I can stir up some interest in the club membership to try their hand at it. It would really take the club back to its roots, (which extend back to 1888.)

It seems Elevator is just down the road, (Eglinton and Laird), so I will make a point of dropping over to see the facilities, and any work you may have on display. Proper registration for multi-layer work is a challenge due to shrinkage. I look forward to seeing your method, as such methods as gum dichromate require a good registration system. (Ask Ron Reeder to bring some of his multi-layer gum prints. They are stunning. I remember a still life of his that he brought to Contact that just wowed me.) I would love to take Sandy's workshop, and if any spots are still open in April, I will signup. (I have to wait until then to insure that I will have the time available, and if spots are still open, you will hear from me.)

I took Ron Reeder's workshop at Contact two years ago. Since you are of his acquaintance, I have little need to say how intelligent, charming and gracious he is, as you will already know that. The students which signup for his workshop are in for a treat. He is a fine teacher, artist, and gentleman.

And thanks again for your hard work, (not to mention financial risks), to support alternate processes.