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View Full Version : What Does B&H Mean By (360mm Rodenstock Apo Sironar S) as being "Refurbished"?



Andre Noble
19-Mar-2010, 21:07
Perhaps HP marketing'a Bob Salomon is still around and can help answer this one.

I am interested in a portrait lenses for 4x5 and 8x10. I am considering getting two or three of the following eventually: 240, 300, 360, 480 either apo sironar S or Apo Symmar L.

B&H owes me a store credit of about $600.

This could be my chance to considering getting this lens, a "refurbished" apo sironar s 360mm http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/539238-DEMO/Rodenstock_160707_360mm_f_6_8_Apo_Sironar_S_Lens.html

It's a one-off item: they only have one of these.

I am a stickler on lens perfection. Why would this 360 Apo Sironar S be "refurbished" to begin with? Anyone have any ideas? B&H will likely NOT tell me the truth or know the truth, but I'll call them Monday and ask anyway.

I do not want to get this great APO Sironar S lens only to learn too late that it's a sub par sample, you know?

Should I go or pass on this lens in reference to it being "refurbished"?

lilmsmaggie
19-Mar-2010, 21:25
Why would this 360 Apo Sironar S be "refurbished" to begin with? Anyone have any ideas? B&H will likely NOT tell me the truth or know the truth, but I'll call them Monday and ask anyway.

I do not want to get this great APO Sironar S lens only to learn too late that it's a sub par sample, you know?

Should I go or pass on this lens in reference to it being "refurbished"?


OK - I'll chance a response. 1. I think the best course of action would be to contact B&H Used equipment department and inquiry about the lens. I see no reason why they would lie to you considering how much they're asking for it.

2. Why would it be refurbished: There's no easy answer to that question.
It depends really on what it is you really want to know about the condition of the lens and/or its history. In general, an item, e.g. lens, camera, computer, etc., is returned to the original manufacturer for refurbishing/reconditioning, and then turned around and resold by the manufacturer directly to the consumer, or one of its authorized dealers. Chances are, Rodenstock felt that it warranted the time and expense for them to refurbish this piece of equipment; otherwise, it would have probably gone directly to the used marketplace "AS IS."

3. I would aslo ask B&H if they aquired the lens directly from Rodenstock as a resell item, or purchased it as used equipment in "refurbished" condition.

Last but not least, I would not be concerned about the lens being in subpar condition. When a manufacturer refurbishes something that they originally made available for sale, any defective parts or components have been replaced with similar or updated parts or components of equal or higher quality and inspected before being resold.

That's my 2 cents. The rest I defer to Bob Salomon.

Eric Leppanen
19-Mar-2010, 23:48
If the lens had been sent back to the Rodenstock factory for repair, then Rodenstock would retest the lens to be sure it still conformed to their specifications. So there would be no need to refer to it as "refurbished". Clearly something else is going on, and I'm not sure if Bob Salomon can help.

The lens is listed by B&H as both an "open box" and "demo item". Normally such an item would be sold as such without any further comment, so "refurbished" would seem to indicate maintenance performed by a third party (not Rodenstock). I have difficulty imagining B&H asking a third party to muck with the lens elements, so it may be nothing more than B&H sending the lens shutter out to be CLA'd. Or the shutter could have been entirely replaced. Or possibly some paint touch up work was done on the lens barrel.

$1,799 is a premium price for a used 360 Sironar-S in the current market, so you should be getting a virtually new, mint copy for that amount of money.

If you are not comfortable with B&H being honest about the history and condition of the lens, then don't buy from them. Or treat them like an Ebay seller: purchase the lens only if they agree to take it back if it doesn't meet your quality criteria.

dsphotog
20-Mar-2010, 00:59
While I can't speak for B&H or Rodenstock, I bought a couple of items labeled "B class" from Pentax, I was told they were sales rep. samples that had been cla'd, they were spotless & perfect, just a lot less $$.
Otoh, that doesn't sound too deeply discounted.

Bob Salomon
20-Mar-2010, 05:54
Andre,

Sorry I do not know how a lens that they do not have in stock is being sold as a"refurbished" demo. You should ask the dealer.

Frank Petronio
20-Mar-2010, 07:54
It can't be any riskier than buying a lens on eBay. When a photographer tests two lenses what do you think becomes of the lesser lens?

Brian Ellis
20-Mar-2010, 08:32
That's a strange ad, it says the lens is a demo item and is also refurbished. Maybe "refurbished" just means it's been cleaned up after being used as a demo. Or maybe they bought the lens from a seller who had it refurbished and they decided to use a refurbished lens as a demo rather than a new lens. Who knows (other than the Shadow).

It can't hurt to ask B&H what's been done to the lens though I suspect anyone you talk to there isn't going to know what was done. But B&H has a decent return policy as long as you make sure you don't go even a day over their time limits. So if you want the lens I'd suggest buying it and testing it, then return it (quickly) if there are any problems. You might want to first make sure their return policy applies to used items.

I don't know what Bob means by not being in stock. The ad says it's in stock and since it's a demo you'd think they must have it in stock. Maybe I missed something.

Sal Santamaura
20-Mar-2010, 08:35
...Why would this 360 Apo Sironar S be "refurbished" to begin with? Anyone have any ideas?...Most likely "refurbished" in this case means that dust was removed from the demo sample. :) Please let us know what you're told when you phone the store.


...I do not know how a lens that they do not have in stock is being sold as a"refurbished" demo...This is a demo that B&H has had in the store. It (this sample) is in stock; the page simply indicates it's not regularly stocked. I suspect that, consistent with B&H's emerging practice, only very fast-selling high-ticket items will be stocked from now on. These days the 360 Apo-Sironar S can't possibly be a high volume item for B&H -- or any other dealer. This new approach pushes the cost of inventory onto distributors; B&H only orders a slow-moving lens when one of its customers orders one from B&H.

mcfactor
21-Mar-2010, 07:58
A demo item means it was on display in the store and is no longer. They recently took their large format lenses off display, so this is probably a lens they no longer carry, or simply have no need for a display version of it. They (or a 3rd party) probably cleaned it up and are now selling it for a reduced price. As long as the glass is clean, it is probably a good value.

Jim Michael
21-Mar-2010, 08:48
I bought a refurbed Nikkor 240 from B&H. Optics are perfect and there is some minor amount of paint missing from the barrel.

John Bowen
21-Mar-2010, 18:47
You might inquire if it is possible to rent the lens with the option to apply the rent against the purchase price if you decide to buy.

henryp
22-Mar-2010, 07:26
[QUOTE=Andre Noble;571581]I am a stickler on lens perfection. Why would this 360 Apo Sironar S be "refurbished" to begin with? Anyone have any ideas? B&H will likely NOT tell me the truth or know the truth, but I'll call them Monday and ask anyway.[QUOTE]

First, whatever makes you think we wouldn't tell you, or anyone, the truth? After 35+ years of pristine ethics and unimpeachable integrity it's not a little bothersome to me you'd be so suspicious. We know the truth and will tell you the truth.

Refurb items come to us refurbished by the manufacturer or their licenced US distributor. A refurb item might have been used in a trade show display case or might have been a salesman's sample. Either way, when we get a refurb item it's almost always in perfect condition. We sell refurb and "open box" items via a channel other than the one for new, not-earlier-sold items to distinguish the provenance so the customer knows in advance EXACTLY what he or she is buying. Finally, a refurb item comes with a warranty and our generous return policy. Buy the lens, test it for a week. If you're dissatiefied, customer service will issue a retunr authorization.

Robert Hughes
22-Mar-2010, 12:25
B&H will likely NOT tell me the truth or know the truth...
First, whatever makes you think we wouldn't tell you, or anyone, the truth?
A little projection going on here, perhaps? Some people never trust others, because they've been burned before.

And some have been acquired a trustworthiness issue themselves.

OTOH it's not polite to go around disrespecting others in a public forum without firsthand knowledge.

Andre Noble
22-Mar-2010, 19:05
First, whatever makes you think we wouldn't tell you, or anyone, the truth? After 35+ years of pristine ethics and unimpeachable integrity it's not a little bothersome to me you'd be so suspicious.

Henry, check your computer you will find Andre Noble one of B&H's most loyal customers.

However B&H once tried to sell me a used "Excellent Condition" Schneider 72XL at around $1,100 that had major Schneideritis/fungus? I returned it, you gladly refunded my money then put then lens back up for sale in the used section on your website as "Excellent".

So even though I absolutely love B&H and the customer service I receive from you, it's still "buyer beware" with any item from you that is not brand new. Andre

henryp
23-Mar-2010, 09:04
However B&H once tried to sell me a used "Excellent Condition" Schneider 72XL at around $1,100 that had major Schneideritis/fungus?

I went back to Jan 2007 and couldn't find this transaction. This must have been quite a while ago.

I did find two other more recent transactions wherein you returned brand new Mamiya lenses you said were infected with fungus. We found none in either. Perhaps your eye is sharper. Both were returned to Mamiya.

None of this excuses your undeserved and pejorative comment, "B&H will likely NOT tell me the truth or know the truth." In fact B&H does know and will tell the truth at all times.

Michael Alpert
23-Mar-2010, 12:17
As a member of this forum, I request that the moderator delete this entire thread. The initial post was defamatory and ridiculous, and I assume that an apology will not be forthcoming.

Andre Noble
23-Mar-2010, 19:46
Perhaps your eye is sharper. It is.

Henry, B&H has been very good, professional, and courteous to me. My wording has been, if not inaccurate, then unfair considering how well you have treated my request for returns in the past. I should have phoned B&H first to see what they had to say about the provenance of the "refurbished/demo" lens. I am reassured to hear that it is indeed a demo item.

The word refurbished has a completely different connotation to me. 10 times out of 10 I'll take the optic that hasn't been fiddled with once assembled in the factory, unless you're going to offer it to me free :)

Michael Jones
24-Mar-2010, 14:19
As a member of this forum, I request that the moderator delete this entire thread. The initial post was defamatory and ridiculous, and I assume that an apology will not be forthcoming.

After re-reading the entire thread, it does look like a setup, doesn't it?

Mike

Andre Noble
24-Mar-2010, 18:14
What I noticed happening over the course of the last decade on this site is some people are kowtowing more and more to the special interest parties who use this site to promote their products.

For example, if I were to come on this site and say I had a problem with retailer A, some on this site who use retailer A will uncritically come to retailer A's defense without considering the details of why I am having a problem.

Criticize a boutique retailer of LF supplies, you run the risk of becoming persona non grata.

Make public problem you are having with a boutique developer that's in vogue here and marketed by a forum member, and you notice a 80% drop in people responding to your future inquiries.

I've had mostly good and but also occasional shaky experience with B&H over the last 20 years with them. They are good people, but not perfect angels. It's always caveat emptor even if you're buying from your own grandmother.

henryp
24-Mar-2010, 18:18
For example, if I were to come on this site and say I had a problem with retailer A, some on this site who use retailer A will uncritically come to retailer A's defense without considering the details of why I am having a problem.

Isn't it excellent then to note that in this instance nothing of the sort has taken place despite your initial comments calling into question our ethics and integrity.

Sal Santamaura
25-Mar-2010, 08:41
... if I were to come on this site and say I had a problem with retailer A, some on this site who use retailer A will uncritically come to retailer A's defense without considering the details of why I am having a problem...But you didn't come here to say you had a problem. You started this thread saying:


"B&H will likely NOT tell me the truth or know the truth"

Then, rather than apologizing as I believe you should have, you danced around your initial statement by describing it as:


"if not inaccurate, then unfair"

Such a non-apology (increasingly popular in US politics these days, unfortunately) is transparent to the membership here. I wouldn't be surprised if you experience an even greater than 80% drop off in responses to your future questions. Those who do respond will likely be posters who haven't seen this thread.



The moving finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy piety nor wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a line,
Nor all thy tears wash out a word of it.

—The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

Thing have changed since that was written. You can ask the moderators to delete this thread. I suggest you do so.

Robert Hughes
26-Mar-2010, 13:23
And of course Mr. Noble cannot tell the difference between Schneideritis and fungus, which further hobbles his argument...

In defense of vendors: I've run across crooked (military industrial) clients in my service business that had huge demands, ran up huge charges, then cobbled up bogus complaints in order to renege on the entire bill. Every dollar they cheated out of us was another to their bottom line, and a fat bonus check for the high-heeled sleazeball that screwed us. :mad:

Of course the clients have warehouses full of corporate lawyers from all the excess funds they gouge out of the gov't. So we had no choice but to buckle.

I won't name names, but you can see their airliners flying by any day of the week...

JohnN
27-Mar-2010, 00:23
In 40 years of buying product from resellers in New York both in person and by mail, I have never been screwed or cheated.

I consider myself "fortunate", and I also believe it reflects positively on the resellers.

B&H definitely included, especially in the last five years via mail order.

Dan Fromm
27-Mar-2010, 03:34
John, you must not have dealt with Cambridge by mail.

And, now that I come to think of it, I remember buying a used 35/2 Nikkor from, IIRC, Olden, by mail that was graded grossly too high. The trim ring was missing and it wasn't the version offered.

JohnN
27-Mar-2010, 08:19
Dan:

Come to think of it, honestly, I never purchased used merchandise from New York resellers.

Andre Noble
28-Mar-2010, 13:55
And of course Mr. Noble cannot tell the difference between Schneideritis and fungus, which further hobbles his argument...

Mr. Hughes, and neither can you, probably.

Here is an email text I received months ago from a lens expert on lens glass (John at Focal Point):

Hello Andre,

Unfortunately, fungal blooms, corrosion or just plain damage (whatever one calls it) looks the same whether it has etched the glass or coating or not. Most of the RB lenses ( if they are cleanable without extensive polishing & re-coating) will run $150-$250 to clean + return shipping.

Best Regards,

John Van Stelten

Focal Point, Inc.
300 Center Drive
Suite G-177
Superior, Co 80027
U.S.A.

I would toss element separation in John's list of lens maladies that get confused by us laymen.