Are premium filters worth the extra money for B/W contrast filters?

[J Ney]

I'm getting ready to make a more significant investment in filters as I'm prepping for the leap into the 8x10 world. To this point, I've been using Cokin P filters yet continuously read that they are far below the quality ladder from Lee / Hitech / etc... I completely understand that when you are talking about grad. ND filters that it is worth the investment to get a premium filter to avoid the color-cast, etc.


My question is, for black/white contrast filters (#25 red; #58 green; etc...) is there a significant quality difference between Cokin filters and the higher-end filters (specifically Hitech)?

Thanks,
J

[BetterSense]

Really, I don't think there is much difference between any filters, except maybe when it comes to flare. I use color gels held in front of the lens all the time. I've even used 3D glasses. The filter is in a plane so far out of focus that scratches and so on will never show up, so it's pretty forgiving. If you can afford to buy premium filters, by all means do, but I wouldn't worry about Cokin filters not being high enough quality.

[Sevo]

My question is, for black/white contrast filters (#25 red; #58 green; etc...) is there a significant quality difference between Cokin filters and the higher-end filters (specifically Hitech)?

Resin filters are more like gelatin filters in that their material is low refraction and has less lens element like behaviour. Optically this is an advantage - as long as they are perfectly clean, unscratched, unwarped and properly shaded inside a deep compendium. For wides, either in camera gelatin or multicoated glass is indicated, as shades are rather limited there. And resin filters do get wasted rather soon - my filters are split between glass for all frequently used types and gelatin (for portability) or resin (if considerably cheaper than gels) for the odd ones that get used only rarely.

The dyes and tints can sometimes be questionable, or maybe more subject to aging, but that seems to affect some colours only - I haven't ever had a mid or deep red resin filter which was up to gelatin and Zeiss or Hoya glass.

[Drew Wiley]

I gave up on everything but top notch multicoated glass filters long ago. Not only
was sharpness visibly affected and flare sometimes an issue, but condensation, fogging, dust retention, hazing, etc etc. Might not instantly be noticeable on large
format due to limited magnification when printing, but it is a factor. Just looked at
some 35mm negs tonite which were taken for critical filter testing. Could easily see
the difference under a 10X loupe.

[Greg Blank]

& I will add the those filters were tested on the same format under the same conditions and same film and shaded exactly same way. So they proved to be superior. Otherwise using resin will be just as good if you don't care. I am not a big filter advocate BTWY. The company I work for sells Cokin and I use the K2 and R25 for BW I also do like the FLD and FLW grads. I Don't like ND grads and NDs in general, but do like CC filters for very specified work.



I gave up on everything but top notch multicoated glass filters long ago. Not only
was sharpness visibly affected and flare sometimes an issue, but condensation, fogging, dust retention, hazing, etc etc. Might not instantly be noticeable on large
format due to limited magnification when printing, but it is a factor. Just looked at
some 35mm negs tonite which were taken for critical filter testing. Could easily see
the difference under a 10X loupe.

[Greg Blank]

Optiflex offered by Visual departures is a thinner filter, thinner equals less defraction. in short I like Optiflex have used quite a few Optiflex filters. Hitech by my understanding is a resin filter and is about 2.5mm in thickeness on parr with Cokin. I buy Cokin- because I work for a company that I get a good price and see not a lot of difference bewteeen Hitech and Cokin- I do own a Lee-Calumet grad-Hi-tech. I have the #25 red Cokin as well as some R25 glass Hoyas,....my statement is: if buying a more expensive glass R25 makes you think you make better pictures then me, buy it! I can still afford buying more film, so maybe you won't be taking pictures when I am 70- i know I won't be sweating your choice ;)


I'm getting ready to make a more significant investment in filters as I'm prepping for the leap into the 8x10 world. To this point, I've been using Cokin P filters yet continuously read that they are far below the quality ladder from Lee / Hitech / etc... I completely understand that when you are talking about grad. ND filters that it is worth the investment to get a premium filter to avoid the color-cast, etc.


My question is, for black/white contrast filters (#25 red; #58 green; etc...) is there a significant quality difference between Cokin filters and the higher-end filters (specifically Hitech)?

Thanks,
J

[Brian Ellis]

I've used all the common brands of circular filters for b&w photography - B+W, Heliopan, Tiffen, Hoya. There's no noticeable difference among them that I've ever seen in a photograph. With color photography you can see that different brands of polarizers impart slightly different color casts but all the major brands are the same for b&w photography. I usually buy B+W filters just because they're made well but as far as different effects on the photograph as among the major brands, there is none.

[anchored]

I would disagree with any suggestion that resin filters are inferior to glass filters. More fragile... yes... better... no. Some of the highest quality filters available are made of optical resin (HiTech, Lee, Singh-Ray)... I surely wouldn't qualify these high-end resins filters as throw-aways... one just has to take care while handling them.

Although a bit off-subject but mentioned above, I've found there are major differences between brands of polarizers, far more than slightly different color casts. Some of the brands (especially the cheaper ones) have a tendency towards loss of contrast and turning deep shadows a blue-ish tinge. There is also quite a variation between range of polarity between brands. I've owned and tried most brands of polarizers (including B+W, Cokin, Heliopan, Hoya non-coated, Hoya HMC, Lee, Nikon, Quantaray, Singh-Ray, SunPak, Tiffen, and "non-branded"). My personal favorite polarizers have been those by Heliopan, Lee, and Singh-Ray.

On subject, for B&W photography, I personally lean towards higher-end filters simply due to problems I've incurred with lower end filters for color photography. I use HiTech contrast filters simply because I've been pleased with the quality of their other filters (color enhancers and grads) and they're quite a bit cheaper than my general favorite brand of filter (Lee).

[Doremus Scudder]

Some of the advantages of high-end filters lie outside their optical excellence. B+W filters and others are multicoated, which means less flare in certain situations. They also have brass rings, which means less jamming and sticking threads (i.e, easy to get off). The colors of top-quality filters are usually better dyes, which means both greater longevity and better consistency. These are the main reasons I have switched to B+W filters.

That said, I would not hesitate to use uncoated filters with aluminum rings, I'd just take the proper precautions (lens shade, don't screw it on too tight...). If you are careful with flare, there should be no appreciable difference in the image quality.

The resin and gel filters are very good, but are not coated and have the disadvantage of needing a holder/system to attach it to the lens. This is fine for much studio and product work, but for my type of work, i.e., field photography in often difficult to get to places, the smaller bulk and greater portability of screw-on filters are a real boon.

Best,

Doremus Scudder

[BrianShaw]

That said, I would not hesitate to use uncoated filters with aluminum rings, I'd just take the proper precautions (lens shade, don't screw it on too tight...). If you are careful with flare, there should be no appreciable difference in the image quality.

The resin and gel filters are very good, but are not coated and have the disadvantage of needing a holder/system to attach it to the lens. This is fine for much studio and product work, but for my type of work, i.e., field photography in often difficult to get to places, the smaller bulk and greater portability of screw-on filters are a real boon.


These two comments represent my experience, too.

[Jim Noel]

Why put a cheap piece of plastic or glass in front of an expensive lens?
This makes no sense to me - I only use optically flat glass filters, or gels which are scrupulously clean.

[Sevo]

Technically, plastics (or more specifically the CR-39 and PMMA used in camera optics and filters) have advantages similar to gels - namely high transparency and low refraction at a high Abbe number, and the possibility to use them in thin wall strength without the fracture and splinter risk of glass. CR-39 moreover is a high quality near UV blocking filter by itself.

It really depends on the applications - "plastics" filters are not bad by themselves, the more so in large format where they often can be mounted in-camera, where they have much less flare issues than with the flimsy budget 35mm holders they are usually associated with.

[J Ney]

Thanks all for this great insight... whenever I read some of these threads I feel like I need to go back and get a degree in physics, but the thing I love about photography is that there is always so much more to learn! :-)

For me, the most valuable thing I took away was the absolute need for a lens shade or compendium (especially when using resin filters). For contrast, I think I'll use Cokin filters but definitely stay with Hitech for other filters that may be used with color film.

Thanks again,
J

[anchored]

J - One thing you may look into replacing if wanting to spend a bit to improve your filter system for use with Cokin and other brand square/rectangular filters: Replace the Cokin holder with the Lee filter holder system. Build is MUCH better than Cokin; it is fully adjustable to accommodate different filter thicknesses (adjustment screws or replacement slide rails to vary tension); can customize the number of filter slots in the holder to suite your needs; and Lee has superb compendium shades that fits their holder.

[J Ney]

J - One thing you may look into replacing if wanting to spend a bit to improve your filter system for use with Cokin and other brand square/rectangular filters: Replace the Cokin holder with the Lee filter holder system. Build is MUCH better than Cokin; it is fully adjustable to accommodate different filter thicknesses (adjustment screws or replacement slide rails to vary tension); can customize the number of filter slots in the holder to suite your needs; and Lee has superb compendium shades that fits their holder.

Thanks for the tip... definitely planning on veering away from the Cokin holder!

[tgtaylor]

I disagree. I've found the Cokin Z holder essentially the same as the Lee Foundation except that the Cokin allows you to adjust for filter thickness without using a screwdriver. Plus it cost about 1/2 what the Lee holder costs.

I am in the process of replacing my resin 4x4 filters (HiTek, Cokin and Lee) with glass filters primarily because the glass is scratch resistant but also because of the supposd better optical quality of optical grade glass. The glass filters are super expensive - $250 for example for a Schneider Tru Circular Polarizer - but worth it in the end as long as I don't drop them on concrete :) So far I have two Schneiders (Polarizer and UV) and two Formatt (1stop ND and 2 stop grad).

I've been using the Cokin Z-Pro filters for B&W, HiTek for Grads, and Lee and Cokin (I bought a complete set of Lee 4x4 81 Series warming filters at a camera show for $30 in brand new condition with Lee case) with no discernable problem other than they will develop scratches over time despite taking the utmost care.

BTW, I've searched E-bay for some time for a reasonable priced compendium shade for my Toyo's. Haven't found any yet but you don't really need one. Every time I pull the dark slide I hold it to the side of the lens until I see its shadow cover the lens/filter.

[Sevo]

also because of the supposd better optical quality of optical grade glass.

The optical properties of glass are actually worse, when it comes to a plan-parallel plate introduced into a optical system. Optical plastics are not neutral (even gels are only approximating neutrality), but a fair bit closer to neutrality than glass.

[Wally]

I disagree. I've found the Cokin Z holder essentially the same as the Lee Foundation except that the Cokin allows you to adjust for filter thickness without using a screwdriver. Plus it cost about 1/2 what the Lee holder costs.

...

I've been using the Cokin Z-Pro filters for B&W, HiTek for Grads, and Lee and Cokin (I bought a complete set of Lee 4x4 81 Series warming filters at a camera show for $30 in brand new condition with Lee case) with no discernable problem other than they will develop scratches over time despite taking the utmost care.

...

Are you sure you don't mean the Cokin X-Pro? I don't think the Z holder can handle a 4-inch filter.

[J Ney]

Are you sure you don't mean the Cokin X-Pro? I don't think the Z holder can handle a 4-inch filter.

The Z holder can hold the 4-inch filter... the X filter is something huge like 130mm.

[Brian K]

I'm getting ready to make a more significant investment in filters as I'm prepping for the leap into the 8x10 world. To this point, I've been using Cokin P filters yet continuously read that they are far below the quality ladder from Lee / Hitech / etc... I completely understand that when you are talking about grad. ND filters that it is worth the investment to get a premium filter to avoid the color-cast, etc.


My question is, for black/white contrast filters (#25 red; #58 green; etc...) is there a significant quality difference between Cokin filters and the higher-end filters (specifically Hitech)?

Thanks,
J

Besides some of the qualitative differences mentioned already, such as lower flare on multicoated glass filters, there are several other differences that can be significant. The most important being that the use of plastic or resin filters with longer focal length lenses will noticeably degrade the image. If you plan on shooting with lenses over 250mm you really need to use glass filters that screw in so that that remain plano parallel.

As for my first choice of filters it's always B+W.

[Drew Wiley]

I do keep quite a set of plastic and gel filter on hand for studio use. Won't go into all
the reasons, except that many of these are cc's and light balancing etc. In the field
I wouldn't dream of using them. Gels aren't cheap to begin with, they get dirty quite
easily, and degrade image quality. Often for published work I could get away with
this kind of thing because the degree of magnification was generally insignificant.
In the field I am likely to be taking high quality negatives for print enlargement.
As far as contrast filters for black-and-white film, I gave up on Tiffen, because the
sandwich style filter degraded the image and was hard to keep clean, while plastic filters are electrostatic and actually attract dirt and pollen. Now I only use multicoated B&W, Hoya "HMC" filters, or potentially something similar. Glass filters
will last a long time, don't cost that much more, and you really don't need that many
types.