Jobo one step closer to the end.

[Paul Kierstead]

A pretty good sized step.

linky (http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Jobo-AG-ist-insolvent)

Funky machine translation (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Jobo-AG-ist-insolvent&sl=de&tl=en)

[Joseph O'Neil]

Another story, same topic, different paper. All in German (sorry)
joe

http://www.insolvenz-ratgeber.de/jobo-stellt-insolvenzantrag/2010/03/08/

[Frank_E]

Also reported on T.O.P.

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/blog_index.html

[Renato Tonelli]

Sad news.

Better get those spare Jobo drums soon.

[Brian Ellis]

Another one bites the D . . .

[Renato Tonelli]

But WAIT! This might be a good opportunity for some small company to buy their processor technology and re-introduce one or two drum processors. I am thinking small scale production.

[Sevo]

Right - indeed, there is some hope that some small enterprise might jump on the opportunity and pick up the tank and processor (or at least processor spare part) production, something which Jobo (mismanaged and converted into a inferior Hama competitor) recently neglected.

[Greg Blank]

That writer is an A-hole.


Also reported on T.O.P.

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/blog_index.html

[Dirk Rösler]

In case you need Jobo parts and products, contact Klaus - Dieter Seynsche <kds@fotolaborservice.de> http://www.fotolaborservice.de/

No relation, just got some small Jobo bits from them without problems (easy running rollers etc.)

[Drew Wiley]

If you want to see a basic drum processor that did it right, it was CPI, not Jobo.
Far less complicated, far more reliable, and much more versatile, right up to 30x40
drums.

[Greg Blank]

Ok , what the heck is a CPI?


If you want to see a basic drum processor that did it right, it was CPI, not Jobo.
Far less complicated, far more reliable, and much more versatile, right up to 30x40
drums.

[Drew Wiley]

CPI was a small production co in Florida, basically a one-man band named David
Seriqui I think. Production stopped when he retired. These were affordable semi-automated machines, but are coveted and almost never come up for sales used (think I've seen it happen only once). Had speed control and bi-direction. On mine
I added an eccentric for 3-way agitation. The drums were made of noryl plastic instead of ABS, so were much better insulated. They also loaded and drained way
faster than Jobo, and are much easier to take apart to clean etc. There was an easily replacable but strong gearmotor, not the tiny little thing like Jobo uses, so drums up to 30X40 can easily be used. Also you could run these at a very low RPM. Jobo was just revved up way to high for a lot of things. They never seemed to listen to this complaint. The CPI unit is very solid and basic, although the drums were
somewhat expensive because noryl is way more expensive than most plastics.
CPI also made the Accu-temp series of thermoregulators, which were very respected
in their time, and color easily hold water bath temp within 1/10 degree F.

[Stephen Willard]

CPI was a small production co in Florida, basically a one-man band named David
Seriqui I think. Production stopped when he retired. These were affordable semi-automated machines, but are coveted and almost never come up for sales used (think I've seen it happen only once). Had speed control and bi-direction. On mine
I added an eccentric for 3-way agitation. The drums were made of noryl plastic instead of ABS, so were much better insulated. They also loaded and drained way
faster than Jobo, and are much easier to take apart to clean etc. There was an easily replacable but strong gearmotor, not the tiny little thing like Jobo uses, so drums up to 30X40 can easily be used. Also you could run these at a very low RPM. Jobo was just revved up way to high for a lot of things. They never seemed to listen to this complaint. The CPI unit is very solid and basic, although the drums were
somewhat expensive because noryl is way more expensive than most plastics.
CPI also made the Accu-temp series of thermoregulators, which were very respected
in their time, and color easily hold water bath temp within 1/10 degree F.

Hey Drew, do you know any outlets that carry used CPI equipment?

[jeroldharter]

I think the big thing about Jobo is the ability to process all sorts of film, especially sheet film with the expert tanks which are very nice. Did CPI have film tanks? Have any pics? Just curious. I use BTZS tubes for everything which are great but tedious.

[Renato Tonelli]

If you want to see a basic drum processor that did it right, it was CPI, not Jobo.
Far less complicated, far more reliable, and much more versatile, right up to 30x40
drums.

Now you tell me!:rolleyes:
A new company could make the Jobo processor sturdier. A fully loaded Expert Drum seems way too heavy for the Lift - if I didn't help raise it with my right hand, I would be afraid of snapping it.

But, I degress...

[Drew Wiley]

Like I said, I've only seen one CPI unit ever sold used, and I unsuccessfully bid for it
myself just for parts. No big deal, because everything inside can be replaced with a
basic gearmotor or components from McMaster or other industrial suppliers. Nothing
was proprietary. I have modified a few things including the insides of one of the drums,
but basically, it made the whole complicated flimsy Jobo arrangement seem stupid from
the start.

[jon.oman]

Like I said, I've only seen one CPI unit ever sold used, and I unsuccessfully bid for it
myself just for parts. No big deal, because everything inside can be replaced with a
basic gearmotor or components from McMaster or other industrial suppliers. Nothing
was proprietary. I have modified a few things including the insides of one of the drums,
but basically, it made the whole complicated flimsy Jobo arrangement seem stupid from
the start.

Drew,

Do you own a CPI unit? If so, can you provide photos of it? I would also like to know the brand and part number information on the gearmotor drive.

Thanks!

Jon

[Drew Wiley]

I'd be happy to provide specifics on the CPI, but please be a little patient with me.
I'm heading out of town next week for property maint, photog, etc, and I'll have to open the unit up to look at the gearmotor spec. The biggest problem with mfg a rig
like this is simply paying for the setup of the basics like the platform itself and the
drums. With very large drums you have a problem of maintaining internal temp for
fussy processes like RA4 with small volume chem. That is why thick Noryl plastic was
chosen instead of thin ABS like Jobo. However, the nature of the rig is that virtually
anyone's drum can be used on it - no goofy cog system like Jobo. But my own rig is
all tricked out to turn it into a portable cart, and as I mentioned, I did a simple modification to allow 3-way agitation. I don't have a digital camera but can take simple
shots - PM mail me if you would like these and I'll mail them to you when I get the
chance. Temp control was separate, though I did build it into my own unit for optional use; but just as simple to keep the chem in a tempering box or thermoreg on the side.
There were patents on everything, which probably exp by now, but I'll see if the #'s
for these are still legible. Best drum processor ever made.

[Greg Blank]

Of course I've been working on and repairing Jobo machines for about four years, there are some observations I have regarding how one could make a simpilar machine,....for instance one could drive a said drum with a bicycle type mechanical hand operated crank. all one needs is a metronome and one can keep fairly consistent agitation "cycles going" The Jobo interestingly enough used drums almost the same diameter as the King Concept drums Omega Arkay had made for the KC line. If one is bent on making equipment for personal use there are better systems than rotary processors.....like Stainless Nitrogen burst temperature controlled hand lines - stainless tanks.

All you need additional are film hangers, night goggles and a good exhaust fan.


I'd be happy to provide specifics on the CPI, but please be a little patient with me.
I'm heading out of town next week for property maint, photog, etc, and I'll have to open the unit up to look at the gearmotor spec. The biggest problem with mfg a rig
like this is simply paying for the setup of the basics like the platform itself and the
drums. With very large drums you have a problem of maintaining internal temp for
fussy processes like RA4 with small volume chem. That is why thick Noryl plastic was
chosen instead of thin ABS like Jobo. However, the nature of the rig is that virtually
anyone's drum can be used on it - no goofy cog system like Jobo. But my own rig is
all tricked out to turn it into a portable cart, and as I mentioned, I did a simple modification to allow 3-way agitation. I don't have a digital camera but can take simple
shots - PM mail me if you would like these and I'll mail them to you when I get the
chance. Temp control was separate, though I did build it into my own unit for optional use; but just as simple to keep the chem in a tempering box or thermoreg on the side.
There were patents on everything, which probably exp by now, but I'll see if the #'s
for these are still legible. Best drum processor ever made.

[Drew Wiley]

Greg - I was obviously referring to a drum processor in a more universal sense, not
just for film development. When's the last time you made a 20X24 or 30X40 print in
a nitrogen burst tank? An effective hand crank would be just as much fuss to mount
as an automated gear motor. Why not just hook a willow stick to the tail of a hound
dog, rig a cam to that, and use a bone hanging from a string on the ceiling as the metronome? Each time the bone would sway, the dog would wag his tail and rotate
the drum.

[Renato Tonelli]

Why not just hook a willow stick to the tail of a hound
dog, rig a cam to that, and use a bone hanging from a string on the ceiling as the metronome? Each time the bone would sway, the dog would wag his tail and rotate
the drum.

:D Speaking for myself, I think I'll stick to more reliable methods.
I do think you have a good point about Jobo processors though; they kept on adding features to the same basic system even when it became obvious that a new 'from the ground up' design would have been better.

[Greg Blank]

Obviously :)

How about just using a big tray and a good exhaust fan.



Greg - I was obviously referring to a drum processor in a more universal sense, not
just for film development. When's the last time you made a 20X24 or 30X40 print in
a nitrogen burst tank? An effective hand crank would be just as much fuss to mount
as an automated gear motor. Why not just hook a willow stick to the tail of a hound
dog, rig a cam to that, and use a bone hanging from a string on the ceiling as the metronome? Each time the bone would sway, the dog would wag his tail and rotate
the drum.

[John Kasaian]

Greg - I was obviously referring to a drum processor in a more universal sense, not
just for film development. When's the last time you made a 20X24 or 30X40 print in
a nitrogen burst tank? An effective hand crank would be just as much fuss to mount
as an automated gear motor. Why not just hook a willow stick to the tail of a hound
dog, rig a cam to that, and use a bone hanging from a string on the ceiling as the metronome? Each time the bone would sway, the dog would wag his tail and rotate
the drum.
Would a short tailed dog require shorter developing times to compensate for the faster rotation speeds? ;)

[Drew Wiley]

John -a long-tailed dog would obviously work better, because you can attach the
string at any point along the length of the tail - think of it as a variable-speed tail.
Now for the seemingly more relevant point of why not just use trays - 1) with color
chemicals in particular, a big tray full of something like RA4 blix or Ciba bleach is distinctly unhealthy; 2) it's distinctly expensive, since you're exposing a large volume
of fussy chem to oxidation all at once, and because you need far large volumes of
chem; 3) it can be distinctly corrosive to everything in the room around it; 4)harder to
maintain temp with large work due to need of huge water jacket; 5) ever try to handle
30x40 color prints in a tray - you have to be damn careful even with the lights on!
So lets compare: say enough RA4 for a 30x40 one-shot in my drum needs a little over
a pint of solution. The machine runs on about 4 amps. By contrast you'd need about a
gallon in a tray, with trouble replensishing; or if own a roller-transport 40-inch
processor you're looking at how many gallons??? plus you need 60 amps of 220V -
serious stuff (I'm thinking of installing one of those things myself, but it ain't so simple). Therefore drums just make sense - they're affordable, versatile, and efficient.

[Paul Kierstead]

... there are better systems than rotary processors.....like Stainless Nitrogen burst temperature controlled hand lines - stainless tanks.


In which ways are they better?

[Greg Blank]

Stainless is easier to regulate temperature with. Plastic insulates so to get it to temp you heat longer, stainless comes up to temp a lot quicker. Fewer anomylous problems-the film does not contact a drum or other surface...easier to wash out the antihalation backing-etc. However open tanks mean you need a good exhaust system.


In which ways are they better?

[Ivan J. Eberle]

Drew,

Do you know of any hairless breeds that are also good around small children?

[Drew Wiley]

I don't know, Ivan. Most mechanical manuals showing dog powered machinery were
illustrated in the eighteenth century, in which case a hairless dog usually implied mange. But what are children doing playing in the darkroom anyway?

[Drew Wiley]

Don't get your angle, Greg. I've got all kinds of stainless trays. Plastic is used for the water jacket outside them. In the case of a drum, the whole point is to keep the
drum insulated and the temp constant inside, so heavy plastic is preferable. Although dip tanks can be used for film dev, I don't know of anyone trying to make prints in them, although there was the Nova system for very small prints.

[Paul Kierstead]

Stainless is easier to regulate temperature with.

Although what you say is true, you can get exceedingly good regulation with plastic. The other advantages ... well, I dunno. Film on a reel also enjoys most of those advantages. It doesn't seem to really offer that much for small scale. I'm genuinely curious as my Jobo is destined to be die, and I'm keeping an eye for the alternatives (roll film is also a requirement, prints are not)

[Greg Blank]

No real angle, I was primarily referring to film development with Nitogen burst. People do use trays for prints though 'even color prints'. There is also the Nova slot processors. Lots of options the only limitation is imagination :)



Don't get your angle, Greg. I've got all kinds of stainless trays. Plastic is used for the water jacket outside them. In the case of a drum, the whole point is to keep the
drum insulated and the temp constant inside, so heavy plastic is preferable. Although dip tanks can be used for film dev, I don't know of anyone trying to make prints in them, although there was the Nova system for very small prints.

[Greg Blank]

Once the drum is warm regardless of material that would be the case. However stainless is a far better heat conductor as would any metal be "Talking theoretical design here".

With deep tanks at one point Arkay sold reel "film" baskets that you loaded with multiple stainless reels and then submerged in the tanks. No agitation was needed because of the nitrogen burst coming from the pleniums in each tank.



Although what you say is true, you can get exceedingly good regulation with plastic. The other advantages ... well, I dunno. Film on a reel also enjoys most of those advantages. It doesn't seem to really offer that much for small scale. I'm genuinely curious as my Jobo is destined to be die, and I'm keeping an eye for the alternatives (roll film is also a requirement, prints are not)

[Drew Wiley]

The whole point is to properly preheat the drum internally, which is generally done
both by ambient temperature and, more importantly, by a tempered presoak. From
that point on, the more the drum insulates, the better. Hence the value of a moldable and gluable thermoplastic with a high R-value like Noryl. An obvious exception would be something like small film drums setting in a controlled temp water bath, where stainless is obviously preferable. Stainless is also the preferred
material for preheating individual solutions in a water bath prior to development.
Nitrogen burst is a lot more finicky, although once set up correctly, it can be used
successfully for sheet films. Drums are more versatile on a restricted budget, since different size drums can be used for many sizes of film or prints on the same set
of motorized rollers.

[Paul Kierstead]

Once the drum is warm regardless of material that would be the case. However stainless is a far better heat conductor as would any metal be "Talking theoretical design here".


Ah, but the conduction cuts both ways. A poor conductor also looses heat poorly, so when you put your warm solution into the drum, it also doesn't loose heat very quickly (where as a steel one would).

A stainless steel tank would typically provide better temperature control since it loses heat better, making (in particular) temperature overshoots less of a problem (but this can be mitigated by tuning for a plastic tank). Of course the Jobo doesn't have a proper controller (just a simple thermostat). With an actual PID controller, it would be trivial to hold a good temperature in plastic tub. I have one that easily holds 0.1 F (or C) and was relatively cheap. I use it with a rice cooker for sous-vide cooking, but I want to rewire my Jobo to use it as well since you can so easily dial in a temperature and it nails and holds it so well.

[Drew Wiley]

Paul - my whole gripe with Jobo was that it was neither fish nor fowl. The drums are
plastic but thin plastic, so they don't equalize well to the water bath quickly enough,
and the bath itself isn't terribly well regulated. Some of the drums load and drain much
too slowly. Then there's that twerpy little motor with totally wrong gearing, which makes it almost useless for things like Ciba or pyro. Yeah, I know all the tricks, but a simple motor change would have alleviated most of them. Even at the lowest speeds it is still much too high an RPM and it doesn't have enough power for anything realistic. Over twenty years ago I mentioned this to a Jobo rep and he literally cried, as if I was critisizing their engineering expertise. Actually, I was being very polite and thought I was offering constructive criticism that would increase the versatility and sales. But
they freaked out. So other than a few roll film and 35mm film reels and drums for hand
development, I haven't bothered with Jobo at all.

[Greg Blank]

That the whole issue is it not "a restricted budget" If you have the dollars you can build anything included space craft. Jobo built lots of CPP2's that was a specific level. You had two lower end machines. You also had the ATL's the biggest versions had dollar amounts in the 10K+ range. Those machines gave the user a different experience than the CPE.


Drums are more versatile on a restricted budget, since different size drums can be used for many sizes of film or prints on the same set
of motorized rollers.

[Greg Blank]

If one removes the heat source, well yes you are correct I wouldn't do that while processing though :)

It depends on which processor. From the CPP2 up they use two sensors that balance the temperature being sensed between two points front and top in through. The accuracy I have measured using a fairly standard calibrated mercury 1-10th incremental therm corresponds to the digital display or lets say to the calibration values in my reference material.

If you have a CPA or E its another matter as they use a simple mechanical reostat.




Ah, but the conduction cuts both ways. A poor conductor also looses heat poorly, so when you put your warm solution into the drum, it also doesn't loose heat very quickly (where as a steel one would).

A stainless steel tank would typically provide better temperature control since it loses heat better, making (in particular) temperature overshoots less of a problem (but this can be mitigated by tuning for a plastic tank). Of course the Jobo doesn't have a proper controller (just a simple thermostat). With an actual PID controller, it would be trivial to hold a good temperature in plastic tub. I have one that easily holds 0.1 F (or C) and was relatively cheap. I use it with a rice cooker for sous-vide cooking, but I want to rewire my Jobo to use it as well since you can so easily dial in a temperature and it nails and holds it so well.

[Greg Blank]

Drew;

Which processor was this analysis based on?



Paul - my whole gripe with Jobo was that it was neither fish nor fowl. The drums are
plastic but thin plastic, so they don't equalize well to the water bath quickly enough,
and the bath itself isn't terribly well regulated. Some of the drums load and drain much
too slowly. Then there's that twerpy little motor with totally wrong gearing, which makes it almost useless for things like Ciba or pyro. Yeah, I know all the tricks, but a simple motor change would have alleviated most of them. Even at the lowest speeds it is still much too high an RPM and it doesn't have enough power for anything realistic. Over twenty years ago I mentioned this to a Jobo rep and he literally cried, as if I was critisizing their engineering expertise. Actually, I was being very polite and thought I was offering constructive criticism that would increase the versatility and sales. But
they freaked out. So other than a few roll film and 35mm film reels and drums for hand
development, I haven't bothered with Jobo at all.

[Paul Kierstead]

If one removes the heat source, well yes you are correct I wouldn't do that while processing though :)


Again, cuts both ways. And both will lose heat out the exposed parts, and plastic will lose it slower.

[erie patsellis]

Although what you say is true, you can get exceedingly good regulation with plastic. The other advantages ... well, I dunno. Film on a reel also enjoys most of those advantages. It doesn't seem to really offer that much for small scale. I'm genuinely curious as my Jobo is destined to be die, and I'm keeping an eye for the alternatives (roll film is also a requirement, prints are not)

Paul, keep your eyes out for a wing lynch pro 6 processor, tube based, stainless rolls to 8x10, the ability to run off DC to finish a run if AC is interrupted, no chemical pumps, fully auto and configurable for any process you would desire.


erie

[Drew Wiley]

Basically, I thought all their processors were hokey, including the ATL. It all could have been done so much better. A decent gearmotor with actual power and realistic control doesn't cost all that much. And the ATL filled and drained so slow that it was useless for a lot of things; and it wasn't cheap. There were all kinds of drum processors made, some for real lab use. As I recall, I paid only a grand for the CPI
back in the 70's, plus the drums. It made even the ATL look like a toy.

[dsphotog]

An unfortunate loss of another darkroom processing resource, regardless of one's opinion of the product line.

[bob carnie]

I ran nitrogen burst , dip dunk and then bought two alt2300.(I prefer the Rotary System by far)
15 years later I've lost count how many runs but the Jobo's were consitant and reliable.
When Jobo left NA all the issues with parts started happening but I will miss the Alt's.
On APUG I have started a long thread about replacing my machines, by June this year I will have a 48inch roller system working with a tempering bath off the side.
I will still be using the Jobo reels and tanks , and am making a couple of big MoFo tanks for large film .
All parts are off the shelf NA products easy to find and purchase.
This system will be manual feed by our young technicians and we plan to run a lot of film, colour and black white.




Basically, I thought all their processors were hokey, including the ATL. It all could have been done so much better. A decent gearmotor with actual power and realistic control doesn't cost all that much. And the ATL filled and drained so slow that it was useless for a lot of things; and it wasn't cheap. There were all kinds of drum processors made, some for real lab use. As I recall, I paid only a grand for the CPI
back in the 70's, plus the drums. It made even the ATL look like a toy.

[Drew Wiley]

Bob - sounds like you're trying to build something analogous to what I've got. I have
two beefy 4ft stainless rods, one connected to the gearmotor etc, and both with
adustable rollers. One roller is eccentric to provide a bit of rocking motions. I put the whole works on a cart so I can go outdoors if needed to avoid any color chem fumes in the dkrm. The basic problem with Jobo was very simple. They had a lot of OEM and custom-fitted components, made a product for relatively large scale export and distribution, plus a lot of accessories with lots of patents, then beyond that, rather substantial wholesale and retail markups. On the other hand, CPI produced very limited quantities with relatively low overhead, and sold direct to end users. Simple math. And they used widely available parts, at least from industrial sources. Sad to see Jobo go down, however. The design work was done back in an era when many German companies were very sensitive to outside comment. That has changed quite a bit in recent years, and I have been personally involved in several think sessions with German equipment engineers, though not photo related.

[bob carnie]

Drew

were we split up at birth? Ciba Printers mask making now this.

Putting the rollers on a cart is a really good idea, and I will now incorporate this into my new system.
I am trying to build a tank to process 30x46 inch film . the largest tank I have here is a 16x20 Jobo , the insert though workable, all the divits came off or at least most of them.
I am trying to figure a simple way of having the film base not touch the tank so that the developer can get to the base.
Any thoughts on this??



Bob - sounds like you're trying to build something analogous to what I've got. I have
two beefy 4ft stainless rods, one connected to the gearmotor etc, and both with
adustable rollers. One roller is eccentric to provide a bit of rocking motions. I put the whole works on a cart so I can go outdoors if needed to avoid any color chem fumes in the dkrm. The basic problem with Jobo was very simple. They had a lot of OEM and custom-fitted components, made a product for relatively large scale export and distribution, plus a lot of accessories with lots of patents, then beyond that, rather substantial wholesale and retail markups. On the other hand, CPI produced very limited quantities with relatively low overhead, and sold direct to end users. Simple math. And they used widely available parts, at least from industrial sources. Sad to see Jobo go down, however. The design work was done back in an era when many German companies were very sensitive to outside comment. That has changed quite a bit in recent years, and I have been personally involved in several think sessions with German equipment engineers, though not photo related.

[Drew Wiley]

Bob - I simply have long ribs glued to the inside of the big drum. These are half-circle
in cross-section and quite thin, so won't scratch film. Another way to do it is what I
use in trays and washer dividers: you can get little half-sphere self-adhesive cabinet
door bumpers made of silicone (don't use the vinyl type) - they seem chemically inert
and last forever, but I haven't tried them in drums per se. I should have also clarified
something about the roller "eccentric" - it's actually a perfectly round but oversize i.d.
type 316 shaft collar, mounted via the set screws so it's off center on one end of the
passive roller. Got it from McMaster, then added a nonskid surface. I hope to try my
drums for dye transfer matrix film one of these days. I figure that just about the time
I have it all figured out, the supply of this film will dry up forever. But what the heck -
nothing ventured, nothing gained. Don't have time to fiddle with color carbon.

[bob carnie]

Drew

Richard Sullivan is working on colour carbon tissues, I am very interested in his teams progress.
I think the stickler will be pre sensitized tissues , over sensitizing at time of printing(huge cans of whoopass)

Thanks for the tips on the drums.

bob

[Drew Wiley]

Bob - There might be only a couple of people in the world doing large color carbons. There are apt to be some serious bumps in the road. I believe the whole pigment issue itself needs to be reexamined and updated. Sandy King is obviously generating a lot of
interest in carbon, but obtaining a high degree of repeatability in color is a pretty tough nut to crack. I don't have either the time or space for carbon as well as all the
other damn processes I'm involved with now, but if I did, I would undoubtedly install my own dedicated coating machine and be rethinking the process from the ground up.