Recommended enlarging lens for 8x10 Durst

[Jon Wilson]

Well, I am getting very excited about the establishment of my darkroom and small studio. A portion of the darkroom ceiling is being raised so that my recently purchased Durst 8x10 Enlarger CLS-2000 which has a color head can be fully extend to its maximum 9 feet. The 8x10 enlarger should be installed by the end of next week and hopefully a 220 power outlet installed by that time too.

This enlarger comes with a 210mm Rodagon lens installed. I believe there are other Rodagon lens ranging from 300mm down to 50mm. I have several process lens, e.g., 240mm Kowa, 270mm Kowa, 305mm Kowa, 420mm Rodenstock, 610mm Rodenstock, 760mm Rodenstock, etc. (some of these may not fit this enlarger). I have minimal experience in the darkroom and that over 30+ years ago printing with 35mm negatives. I realize I will be able to test several lens and decide which would be best for my needs for a given negative, but I would like some guidance to narrow the field.

Also, is there any advantage to setting up additional enlargers, e.g., 4x5, 5x7, provided there is sufficient space? Prior to acquiring this 8x10 enlarger last week, I had previously acquired a Saunders LPL 4x5 and a Zone VI 5x7 unit.

Needless to say, I may need to narrow the field of surplus equipment. :eek:

All assistance is appreciated. In fact, if you are in my neighborhood, come on by and we can try it out.

Jon

[Allen in Montreal]

Jon,

Congratulations!

You have the height for a 300 Rodagon, very nice lens.
I would think your Kowa 305 would be very nice too.

If you look in IC-Racer's thread on his Durst 1840 renovation there are some measures with different focal lengths vs print size. They are also in the durst manual, but mine vary slightly from the manual.

The 360 is huge and a very nice piece of glass, but you won't be making murals with it.:)

I don't see the point in a 240 Rodagon for you since you have the height to carry the 300mm.
The 210 is nice for 5x7, you just need a 150 for the 4x5 and you are set. I would never ditch my 138s or my Focomat V35, but I think that is personal.
What kind of neg carriers do you have? Will you sandwich the smaller negs or Lapfe them?

Just about anyone who starts to use a big Durst falls in love with them, so let the love affair begin and enjoy the ride!

[Jon Wilson]

Thanks Allen. It has a 10x10 glass negative carrier and came with 4 sheets of 10x10 Anti-Newton Glass (3 of them new). The prior owner made a 5x7 mask and inserted in the holder so he could enlarge 5x7 negs.

I am not sure if I will make similar masks or perhaps have the 4x5 and 5x7 enlargers setup and ready for their respective negatives.

You are right, I will not be making murals...

The print developing system the seller made for making prints is unique...or at least it is to me. He designed a unit with 5 slots (similar to a washer, e.g., Zone VI, Salthill, etc.) and each slot will hold 5 gallons of chemicals. Each slot has a lid which seals the air out when not in use. The slots are about 24 inches x 3 inches each. This limits the chemicals exposure to air and thus, the chemicals can last 6 months. This will save lots of time in actually printing the pictures since I won't have to set out the chemicals in trays each time. The downside is I am not able to view the print as it is developing. Thus, I will lose more photographs until I determine the exposure I prefer.

I am stoked; I realize it will be long learning curve for me.....but as you know the ride will be fun!

Jon

[ic-racer]

This is my personal lens setup (though subject to change any time ;) )

8x10 negative -> 1:1 -> 305mm process lens
8x10 negative-> up to the full baseboard size -> 300mm Rodagon (non-G)
8x10 negative-> up to full baseboard size without getting on my knees->Fujinar 250mm (still need to mount that one on a board)
8x10 negative-> on the wall -> 360mm Componon

I just finished filling my Tripla with a set of 3 Componons and developed a slick masking procedure. So I have been experimenting with the thought of doing 35mm, 6x6, 6x9 and 4x5 on the Durst. Mostly just to see how it would work out, I don't think I'd stop using my two 4x5 enlargers though.

I'm thinking I'd use the Durst 8x10 with the small formats just when I wanted to project them on the wall.

On my Tripla I have the Durst branded 150mm, 210mm and 80mm.

I also just got the Laratub so I could also use that with an 80 or 50mm.


Just last night I figured out a cool way for masking the smaller formats. On the Negateil negative carrier there are slots to accept a masking panels that come in from the sides and go right under the negative carrier. I made some cardboard masks with appropriate sized holes in them for the little format negatives. Now I can easily slide those cardboard mask in when needed.

[bob carnie]

This is a great enlarger, I use a 360 and a 300 with it , you also can adapt for smaller film and use smaller lenses

have fun, an incredible piece of equipment you are installing.

[SAShruby]

Jon?

Does your enlarger comes with a big grey box, you have to hang it on the wall? Also it has somewhat cumbersome, heavy remote which operates enlarger. If you have something like that, we have same type of enlarger ;).

[mhulsman]

This is my personal lens setup (though subject to change any time ;) )

8x10 negative-> up to the full baseboard size -> 300mm Rodagon (non-G)

Why the non-G ????
Is a +G better than a non-G on baseboard level ?

Mike

[Jon Wilson]

Jon?

Does your enlarger comes with a big grey box, you have to hang it on the wall? Also it has somewhat cumbersome, heavy remote which operates enlarger. If you have something like that, we have same type of enlarger ;).


I am not sure. It comes with an 8x10 and 4x5 mixing box and as to the heavy remote unit, I don't think so.

I will post some pictures of the darkroom as it progresses. My friend made the cut in the ceiling today and will be framing it in tomorrow so the enlarger and literally reach the roof (about 9+ feet)
Jon

[cory stickley]

Hey Jon! Congratulations!

We are at about the same stage of development with our Dursts.
Mine(a very ancient beast) got moved into a new darkroom recently, but I wasn't ready to use it. Last fall several of the very knowledgeable people on this forum, guided me through the process of figuring out if I should enlarge horizontally or vertically, and then what lens I needed.
The 360mm I had just was not going to work for what I wanted. Even though I had the headroom, I didn't really want to work on my hands and knees:)
In the end, I bought a 240 mm Rodenstock, then a Vapla lens board and flange to mount it. Just last Friday, I made my first 11x14 enlargements from my 8 x 10 negs.
I am thrilled with the results.
Using that lens for vertical projection suits my needs. In the future, I may look for a 300 lens but for now, I am very happy with this set up.
Have fun with the Durst. Would love to hear how you like the 300mm lens.

[ic-racer]

Why the non-G ????
Is a +G better than a non-G on baseboard level ?

Mike

For me, full-baseboard-size is 40" or so. That is 4x which is right in the middle range for the "non-G" lens.

The "G" is for 10x and up (or something like that).

Technically everyone speaks of optimization for a given magnification range. I think of it more in terms of optimization for a given Negative-to-Lens distance. As you can imagine the rays coming in from the edges of an 8x10 negative projected at 1:1 form quite a different angle with the lens 600mm from the negative compared to a Wall-Sized print where the lens is like 305mm from the negative. Also, the maximum sharp image circle will be important with a Wall-Sized print, whereas with smaller prints you are just using the center of the circle.

[ic-racer]

But, to answer your question, I have not tested the two lenses (G and non-G) side by side. I do know that for 1:1 reproduction, my process lens has much better flatness of field than the non-G 300mm. It is pretty obvious that the edges of the 1:1 image with the non-G 300mm lens focus on a different plane than the center and this improves as the magnification increases.

[John Kasaian]

I got a 229mm Ilex Copy Paragon with a lovely blue coating for $35 that works well on my Elwood. Photo Graphic Sytems had a mess of them---maybe they still have a few left?

[ic-racer]

I got a 229mm Ilex Copy Paragon with a lovely blue coating for $35 that works well on my Elwood. Photo Graphic Sytems had a mess of them---maybe they still have a few left?

Based on my experience with my 305mm Eskofot Ultragon, that should be a fantastic lens for the range of 1:1 up to 1:2 (8x10 to 16x20). And likely better than a 'true' enlarging lens for that low magnification range.

[mhulsman]

ic-racer,

That make sence, I was not thinking about that.
Or maybe it has been told but I could not remember that.
At the moment I am printing with a componon 300mm.
The Rodagon-G 360mm is now in front of my camera, recomended by Gary.

[ic-racer]

ic-racer,

That make sence, I was not thinking about that.
Or maybe it has been told but I could not remember that.
At the moment I am printing with a componon 300mm.
The Rodagon-G 360mm is now in front of my camera, recomended by Gary.

Exactly!

Enlarging is just like LF photography if you think of the paper as the subject! Makro taking lenses are like 'standard' enlarging lenses and 'high mag' enlarging lenses are like 'standard' taking lenses.

[Jon Wilson]

Hey Jon! Congratulations!

We are at about the same stage of development with our Dursts.
Mine(a very ancient beast) got moved into a new darkroom recently, but I wasn't ready to use it. Last fall several of the very knowledgeable people on this forum, guided me through the process of figuring out if I should enlarge horizontally or vertically, and then what lens I needed.
The 360mm I had just was not going to work for what I wanted. Even though I had the headroom, I didn't really want to work on my hands and knees:)
In the end, I bought a 240 mm Rodenstock, then a Vapla lens board and flange to mount it. Just last Friday, I made my first 11x14 enlargements from my 8 x 10 negs.
I am thrilled with the results.
Using that lens for vertical projection suits my needs. In the future, I may look for a 300 lens but for now, I am very happy with this set up.
Have fun with the Durst. Would love to hear how you like the 300mm lens.

Thanks Corky. The Durst is installed and I hope to have the wet side setup by next week. I just received my first shipment of darkroom supplies....Photographer's Formulary. The paper I ordered from Freestyle should be here by the end of the week.

Jon

[Jon Wilson]

Jon?

Does your enlarger comes with a big grey box, you have to hang it on the wall? Also it has somewhat cumbersome, heavy remote which operates enlarger. If you have something like that, we have same type of enlarger ;).

Peter, it has been a while, but I have a Fotar Enlarge with a Durst CLS 2000 color head.

Jon

[jeroldharter]

I would use a different enlarger for smaller formats if I had one. Just powering up that light source for a 6x7 negative seems like overkill. If your darkroom is relative small you will get some heat buildup from the lamp. However, if you get into masking the larger enlarger might be useful say for using 5 x5 masks with 4x5 film.

[Jon Wilson]

Besides the above described lens I have to use, I do have a 210mm (9 inch Verito) in a studio shutter and recently acquired the Wollensak diffusing slots from another LF Forum member which I plan to clean up and try to use with this 8x10 beast. It should fit on my Fotar lens board which is absent a lens. The person I purchased this solid unit from kept his 240mm lens which he used for his 5x7 negs. However, I may need to "tap" a couple of threaded screw holes to hold the flange.

Jon

[Jon Wilson]

I would use a different enlarger for smaller formats if I had one. Just powering up that light source for a 6x7 negative seems like overkill. If your darkroom is relative small you will get some heat buildup from the lamp. However, if you get into masking the larger enlarger might be useful say for using 5 x5 masks with 4x5 film.

I don't think the heat buildup would be factor for my darkroom is a good size (including the 10 foot vertical rise built in for the Fotar. However, that is a good point and I also have Saunders LPL 4x5 enlarger across the room set up which I can use for the small negs. without masking the film holder.

It is all a large learning curve for me, but I plan to take it to task. Any assistance is truly appreciated. In fact, if any forum members are going to be in my neighborhood, let me know and we can have a darkroom party.....anyone have a killer 8x10 negative you would love to print? I have the setup for it....even if it is as organized as I would like it.

Jon (Boise, ID)

[ic-racer]

If you do plan on using your Durst CLS 2000 for all formats from 35mm to 8x10 keep in mind the replacement cost of the bulb and the dichroic reflector. They are separate, unlike the smaller dichroic bulbs. A new bulb is almost $300 and a new reflector is about $1800 last time I checked.

[Jon Wilson]

If you do plan on using your Durst CLS 2000 for all formats from 35mm to 8x10 keep in mind the replacement cost of the bulb and the dichroic reflector. They are separate, unlike the smaller dichroic bulbs. A new bulb is almost $300 and a new reflector is about $1800 last time I checked.

Excellent point. I must make sure my 4x5 Saunders LPL is level :) and clean out that area. Thanks.

Jon

[cyrus]

I use a 300mm for 8x10 and a 240mm for 4x5 and 80mm-105mm for MF on my CLS 1840. I haven't had a need for the 360mm.
I have 11 ft ceilings too. The fan on my unit works just fine, no heat buildup. the bulb on my unit is just a projector lamp - not nearly $300.

[ic-racer]

I use a 300mm for 8x10 and a 240mm for 4x5 and 80mm-105mm for MF on my CLS 1840. I haven't had a need for the 360mm.
I have 11 ft ceilings too. The fan on my unit works just fine, no heat buildup. the bulb on my unit is just a projector lamp - not nearly $300.

Yes, the 1000W bulbs are cheaper. I think the quite expensive dichroic reflector is the same on the CLS1840 and CLS2000, though

[rjmeyer314]

For many years I used a 210mm Fax-Nikkor on my 8x10 Elwood. Right now I'm using a 180mm Repromaster. They both cover 8x10, are sharp, and give much bigger enlargements than a 300mm lens.

[Kimberly Anderson]

I put a down payment on my 184 last week and was sent home with 4 boxes of condenser lenses and enlarging lenses. Wow... I am starting to get a taste of what I am in for.

I have the 360 Componon and am reading about what others have to say regarding this lens. I do not plan to project onto the wall, and I have a 9-foot ceiling.

What say you 8x10 enlarging folks? Do I want to swap/sell/trade my 360 for a 305-ish lens?

All of the other enlarging lenses (210, 150, 80 and 50) are the original Durst lenses sold when the enlarger was new. I'd like to try to keep some degree of authenticity with this beast.

[Len Middleton]

Michael,

Congratulations, you got a great enlarger.

There is a lot of information on them, and a number of individuals on this site own them.

I have an older one with a condenser head.

First you should check if you have the condensers to match the lenses you have.

Next you should check to see if you have a working enlarging lamp. I received two with mine, but neither is working, so need to find an alternate, as the lamps have not been available for some time.

Should have some others who know much more than myself (including Allen, and ic-racer) providing some additional advise.

Enjoy,

Len

[Kimberly Anderson]

I have gone through these boxes very quickly. I saw a lot of big BIG pieces of convex glass in some frames named with words that don't mean much to me....yet. The enlarger I am getting has the color head and apparently was purchased new with all of the accessories. I believe it's been all kept together in a working commercial lab for the past 25+ years. This looks like an older one, but I am not exactly sure.

I also have at least 3-4 replacement enlarging lamps. The one in the enlarger is still good, but I can't test it yet, as I have not picked up the enlarger portion. I am *ASSUMING* that the repoacement laps I got will work, but nothing is guaranteed.

I am reading a lot about this thing in preparation to pick it up in two weeks.

Biggest question I have now is how do I disassemble this thing to get it down my narrow-ish stairs with a bend and into my basement? Once it's downstairs I'm not to worried about moving it around, but just getting it down there will be a challenge.

[ic-racer]

I put a down payment on my 184 last week and was sent home with 4 boxes of condenser lenses and enlarging lenses. Wow... I am starting to get a taste of what I am in for.

I have the 360 Componon and am reading about what others have to say regarding this lens. I do not plan to project onto the wall, and I have a 9-foot ceiling.

What say you 8x10 enlarging folks? Do I want to swap/sell/trade my 360 for a 305-ish lens?

All of the other enlarging lenses (210, 150, 80 and 50) are the original Durst lenses sold when the enlarger was new. I'd like to try to keep some degree of authenticity with this beast.

You are just the guy to buy the 240mm Componon enlarging lens in the for-sale section. I have the newer 240mm but from the pictures that looks like it comes with the Durst adapter for your enlarger.http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showpost.php?p=779676&postcount=12

[Len Middleton]

Michael,

The enlarger column can be separated into two sections, an upper part with the head, and the lower part that stays with the baseboard. My adult son and I got mine down the basement stairs. But it did cost me in future considerations given its size and weight.

Is the colour head a diffusion head? Does it come with two different heads (condenser and colour)?

The condenser head uses large opal lamps about 4-1/4" in diameter. Those arre the ones that are hard to get.

Good luck,

Len

[ic-racer]

There are 2 different color head styles. The CLS300 series and the newer CLS1840/2000 series. Yours should say something on it.

[Kimberly Anderson]

It says 'Laborator' on it. Here's what it looks like:

http://www.chinaphotography.com/forum/attachments/6049/f112d48f70ac1c034a642620fea77097

[Allen in Montreal]

It says 'Laborator' on it. Here's what it looks like:



Sweet!
Congrats.

The enlarger comes apart where the red arrow is in the middle.
2 men can take it apart, but it has a tendency to want to flop over forward (upper arrow) once free from the lower part so a third person just to balance is a good idea (my teenage daughter was the third person on my move and did the job perfectly, it is just to keep it straight while moving it out of the lower section and down on to the hand dolly).
Bring a small hand dolly, place the upper part in the dolly and keep it vertical and you can buzz her right up in to the van by yourself.

Remove the light bulb before moving. Collapse the bellows to avoid damage.
If it has the crank handle as shown, and you have far to travel, you may want to remove it for the trip. If it has the Lamot, do not lay it on the side that has the Lamot mounted on it.

You just bought yourself a really beauty!

[ic-racer]

Wow that looks like brand new! That is the condenser head, so you will need to use a set of multigrade filters if want to print that way. If you can't raise it all the way to the top, you may want a 240mm lens.

[gary mulder]

The 240mm is not useable with 8 x 10 and a condenser head. The necessary condensers have never been made by Durst, or at least not documented.

Disassembling the 184. If you have the room. Lay it on it's back. That way noting can become victim of gravity.

[ic-racer]

The 240mm is not useable with 8 x 10 and a condenser head. The necessary condensers have never been made by Durst, or at least not documented.
.

The table in the L184 manual shows to use 380 & 380 condensers with the 240mm.

[Len Middleton]

The table in the L184 manual shows to use 380 & 380 condensers with the 240mm.

ic,

On the one table that I have shows that yes one is to use the 380 and 380 condensers with the 240mm lens, but the format / negative size they list it for is 5x7.

Shortest lens they list for 8x10 is 300mm.

The 240mm lens might cover 8x10 with a difused enlarger light source, but apparently (at least according to Durst USA) not with a condenser light source.

I think Michael you are still needing to look for a 300mm lens to do sizable enlargements depending upon your head room, although the 360mm will work if you either restrict your size of enlargements or go with horizontal projection.

You look to have a newer (and cleaner) version of my L184 enlarger with the V184 condenser head.

Regards,

Len

[ic-racer]

Maybe Allen in Montreal can chime in here if he has used his 240mm lens for 8x10 with his condenser head.

[jayabbas]

Looks like you stopped by the factory and picked up an enlarger via time travel. Nice 184 you have there.

[Allen in Montreal]

Maybe Allen in Montreal can chime in here if he has used his 240mm lens for 8x10 with his condenser head.

I have a 240 on my 138 but never had it on the 184.
I had a Rodagon 300 for the 184.

Since Michael has a 360 and 210, I would say skip the 240 and sell the 360 after you find a 300 you are happy with.
You can still make some decent prints with the 360 given the bed on the 184 will drop almost to the floor!

[Kimberly Anderson]

My immediate plans are to start making prints 20 inches wide from my 4x10 negatives. I am going to look for a glass holder so I can print with the rebate, or I was even looking at those cool funky spring-holder negative carriers.

I have 9-foot ceilings in my basement, and printing to the floor wouldn't be a problem, I just like to dodge-and-burn with my hands rather than with my feet.

[Allen in Montreal]

My immediate plans are to start making prints 20 inches wide from my 4x10 negatives. I am going to look for a glass holder so I can print with the rebate, or I was even looking at those cool funky spring-holder negative carriers.

You should be able to do that with the standard carrier, the one in the picture you posted was Grane, but I think that image was pulled as a stock image to show which version of enlarger you purchased? Either a Nega or a Grane should do the task.
If you glass is not up to snuff, Focal Point has good glass at good prices.





I have 9-foot ceilings in my basement, and printing to the floor wouldn't be a problem, I just like to dodge-and-burn with my hands rather than with my feet.

What is wrong with dodging with your toes?
Bad attitude! :) :)
You will be fine with a 300mm making prints that size, and burning with your hands.
She is a beast, but she is a beauty!
Enjoy.

[ic-racer]

I am going to look for a glass holder .

As Allen indicated, I believe you can put glass in your holder if it does not already have it. I have the Laraneg and Negateil, and perimeter masking is different on both of those, but I'm sure there is a good way to mask your 4x10s while in the Grane.

As to if a 240mm Componon works for 4x10 with the condensers, I don't know, but I'd probably make an offer for the 240 with the Durst mount in the for sale section. You could easily pay $100 just for a lensboard to mount a 300mm lens that you might acquire.

Any of the 300mm lenses listed for sale by Peter here will be excellent enlarging lenses under $50, but you will still need to get a lensboard for the Durst. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=81096
I have a 305mm Eskofot Ultragon and it is a fantastic enlarging lens. At 2x enlargement, with the grain magnifier the image is just as sharp and clear out to the edges as with my 300mm Rogadon enlarging lens. Peter is selling one for $25, I'd be all over that.

[Kimberly Anderson]

At least two have asked for the Eskosoft...

[ic-racer]

At least two have asked for the Eskosoft...

Ok I see that. I just saw Peter yesterday and he said he was selling those but didn't realize he had posted that back on the 25th. Other lenses will come up for sure. What is your lens budget?

[Kimberly Anderson]

Well, the budget is whatever it'll take to make nice prints. I'm not against selling the 360 since I'll never use it to it's full potential...

[kpphoto]

Great looking piece of condenser fun~joy!
Anyone have a similar head for sale for my 184?

[ic-racer]

Well, the budget is whatever it'll take to make nice prints. I'm not against selling the 360 since I'll never use it to it's full potential...

Looks like he had four of the JML 305mm lenses at $25 and only one taken.