Wet Mount Scanning Fluid

[Richard Martel]

I recall reading somewhere that some brand/s of scanning fluid is 10% mineral oil and 90% Naptha. I have used light mineral oil in the past but it is a pain to clean. Used mild dishwashing detergent, cotton balls and running water.
Today while cleaning some items with "Ronsonol" lighter fluid I noticed that it was Naptha and it evaperated fast with no visable residue.

I get mylar courtesy of a local printer.

If I were not leaving, in a few days, for a month photo shoot I would try it myself, on some backup negs, as I think it may be worth the try.

Good luck.

Regards, Richard

[shileshjani]

I have used Ronsonol for a few years now - no issue that I can tell.

Shilesh

[Richard Martel]

Hi Shilesh,

Please tell us more. What, if you do, mix it with? In what proportion?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks for the input.

Regards, Richard

[shileshjani]

I did not invent this use - I am sure I read it someplace. I use it on the glass holder of a Polaroid SS 120 scanner. A few drops of fluid, film emulsion down, wipe with Pec Pad, and scan. I just shake the film dry afterwards. I have also used one of those film cleaners for the same purpose.

Please use caution - this is flamable stuff, and I am not endorsing its use.

[IanMazursky]

I found the MSDS pdf (http://pages.slc.edu/~aschultz/chemical_hygiene/MSDS/theater%20msds/LIGHTER%20FLUID.PDF) for the Ronsonol lighter fluid.
Kami looks a bit more pure then lighter fluid and a little safer. Id rather use Kami on my drums then lighter fluid.
Ive heard that lighter fluid can damage the acrylic drums so i wont risk it but I think its fine for glass and glass drums.

I do know a number of scanner operators who used to use Ronsonol on the Hell drum scanners.
They loved it but on occasion blew themselves up. Not kidding they did.
Static is a killer working around solvents.

[Bruce Watson]

I can't imagine why anyone would want to endanger their film and/or their equipment using household chems to do work they were never intended to do.

Why not use chems. that are intended for the duty proposed? Chems. that have been proven to be safe for film, and safe for scanners? What's wrong with using scanner mounting fluid when doing fluid mounts on a scanner?

[Richard Martel]

Just because a household "chemical" is bottled in a container to clean toilet bowls does not mean you can't use that same chemical to brush your teeth, if that same "chemical" happens to be a major ingredient in toothpaste. If one wishes to use Perrier instead of tap water, so be it. I stated that I read somewhere that naptha, as in Ronsonol, was a major ingredient in mounting fluid and it seems that some of the posters concure,or at least using naptha albeit with a valid warning. I think this is NOT the post to start a flame war. (insert grin here)
I think more documentation would be nice.

Ifound the referal to naptha and lighter fluid. Direct quote below...Quite the coincidence.

"Bruce Watson7-Mar-2006, 19:23
Just so you'll know, the MSDS for both Kami and Prazio anti-Newton fluid both indicate that the fluids are Naptha based. IIRC, basically lighter fluid. Clearly they are somewhat different because the have different evaporation rates, and Kami fluid is rumored to have some anti-static properties.

So, basically, you are using a solvent. To make a solvent go away, you typically use another, higher volitility solvent. Which is why the film cleaner route works.

If you decide to use something other than film cleaner, please post your results. Might be interesting."

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Regards, Richard

[Richard Martel]

This is Azteks MSDS on their mounting fluid.

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/pdf/msds/kami_scanner_fluids/Kami_Scanner_Mounting_Fluid.pdf

Regards, Richard

[Thebes]

Is the Kami significantly less flammable than Ronsonol?

[Bruce Watson]

Just because a household "chemical" is bottled in a container to clean toilet bowls does not mean you can't use that same chemical to brush your teeth, if that same "chemical" happens to be a major ingredient in toothpaste.

That's true. It is also true that the household product hasn't been tested and shown to be safe to use to brush your teeth. It's ironic you should pick this particular example after the debacle of the Chinese putting diethylene glycol in tooth paste (http://publicsafety.tufts.edu/ehs/?pid=27) just a couple of years ago. It's unknown / unexpected impurities that I'm worried about.

For just one example, one of the big dangers to photographic film is water. It swells and softens the emulsion and makes it much easier to scratch and to embed dust and crud. For older color films it can dissolve and remove the final rinse products from the emulsion and make the dye image more susceptible to fading and the gelatin more susceptible to biological attack. IOW, if the product you want to use to fluid mount with contains water, you might not like the results. But it might not contain any water, so you might be fine. The point is, no one knows, so you are working in the dark.

What the commercial mounting fluids have going for them is that they've been designed for and tested for fluid mounted scanning. This means that they have the optical performance, they won't damage your film or damage your scanner, and they in general clean up fairly easily without leaving a residue.

Can you use other things? Sure -- it's your film and your scanner. You can use shoe polish if you want. Or honey. Whatever makes you happy. But just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Just sayin'.

[Richard Martel]

You missed, or maybe not, the point regarding the debacle with Perrier a number of years ago. And from experience, getting things through the FDA approval process is more how facts and paper work is juggled than with actual performance in many cases.. They, FDA, don't have a steller reputation regarding "approved" products that we use daily
Alot of what you say, regarding water, not all water though, is true. Ironically, It was your reply to a thread, regarding the use of Naptha, with no caveat, that stuck with me. Most of what we get here on this great forum is the anecdotal experience and opinions of others. I have learned a tremendous amount here. To me, others and I'm sure you, value this input. And you voiced yours. I would assume that commercial mounting fluids are designed to work for their intended purpose, but to say "use them" and nothing else would be to stifle innovation. As it stands I did not see any overwhelming reason stated, flammability well noted, not to use Naptha/Ronsonol.

Bruce, since you have such strong feeling regarding the downside of home formulated Naptha/mounting, you must have equally strong experience wet mounting. In this case, please let me ask you, for myself and others,what do you use to fluid mount? Do you have any first hand experience with Lumina (or other) mounting fluids ? Would you care to share your experience re fluid mounting/cleanup here?

Here is a link that may be of interest.

http://www.photo-i.co.uk/BB/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=1873

Thank you.

Regards, Richard

[IanMazursky]

I don't think Bruce missed the point at all. We speak from experience.
Ive been drum scanning for over 10 years and i have friends that started over 25+ years ago on the Hell scanners that took up a whole room.

I use Kami exclusively now but in the past i have used all of the Prazio products, SDS, Mineral oil and almost tried lighter fluid.
Mineral oil was used forever and is still used by some. It works really well except on certain emulsions (E100G for one) where is starts to absorb.
After i found that out the hard way 8 years ago i never used it again. Prazio products are great but theyre mostly gone from the market.
I did love the montage gels but they took forever to clean up. I still have a bunch left but i only use them seriously damaged film.
SDS falls into the same category. I have some left over and occasionally use them when needed.

Lighter fluid scares me. I have a few friends that seared all of the hairs off their arms and ended up with some good burns.
What bothers me about the products that are not designed for drum scanning is the longterm effect on film.
It hasn't been throughly studied and probably wont be. The MSDS only states percentages and usually doesn't always include chemicals that are under 1%.
ie: fragrances, small amounts of buffers....You just don't know whats in them or what the tolerances are in the manufacturing of them.
Water is one problem. Film will stick to a drum or mylar if enough water is present. I had a friend ask me how to get some film off a flatbed that he water mounted.
Of course i said you mean fluid mounted, he said no, water mounted. Well to say the film was ruined is an understatement.

Certain products will work great on glass (flatbeds and glass drums) but will totally destroy acrylic drums.
Ive seen it and its not pretty. Remember film is immersed in the fluid for minutes to many hours.
Issues with the fluid might not be apparent immediately after scanning but can show up after a period of storage.
The same goes for the drum or glass. The effect can be cumulative.

It all boils down to risk. If you are willing to take the risk, go for it but test, test, test....
If not, buy a commercial product like Kami, Lumina, Prazio if you can find it.

[Richard Martel]

Ian,

Thank you for your informative reply. I never doubted Bruces ability. He has, as you, some lovely images and knows his way, according to his website, about scanning, but a more in depth explanation would have been more of a help. I just have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that Kami fluid being 90% Naptha is that much less prone to ignition. What is it that I'm not seeing? Does the addition of the mineral oil change the flash point of Kami fluid that much?
Your concern regarding, drum damage, added chemicals and impurities are a concern especially when your dealing with customer and your valuable negatives.
Instead of trying to re-invent the wheel I'll try the Kami fluid. Are you also using the kami cleaning fluid.

Thank you again Ian.

Regards, Richard

[Peter De Smidt]

Just in looking that MSDSs posted earlier, the flash point of Kami is 16F whereas Rosonol is 42F. That said, whereas Kami does not list any carcinogens, Rosonol does. In addition, as Bruce points out, we don't know what other impurities Rosonol has, and what effect these might have on film, drum cylinders or us.

I have enough Kami and Prazio fluid to last a long time. If I were buying new supplies, I'd certainly consider lumina, as it's supposed to be less toxic and less flammable.

[Paul Kierstead]

In my recent experience, I have noticed that Kami leaves a slight residue (a slight smear) on glass if allowed to dry. Haven't figured out the best method of removal yet; using optical wipes works well, straight alcohol doesn't.

[Peter De Smidt]

Yes it does. I wipe the scanner glass immediately after scanning with a scanner wipe and Windex.

[Keith S. Walklet]

Having used both KAMI and LUMINA, I can say I prefer the LUMINA which doesn't exhibit the strong aromatic qualities of the KAMI.

[Richard Martel]

Thank you for all the informative replies. I'm off tomorrow for a trip west to, hopefully, do a lot of photography.
Thanky.

Regards, Richard

[tbirke]

Kami is 100% Naphta, and the warning label on the bottle warns you of combustion as well, caused by static. Especially when cleaning the INSIDE of the drum.
Never happened to me though...

[IanMazursky]

Hi Richard,
Kami will ignite if you prompt it same as most solvents. In my experience it seems less sensitive to static discharge.
Im not tempting it though. I have adequate ventilation and an anti static generator (recent purchase).
I have no idea about the actual chemistry as to what makes it less sensitive but i would trust it over lighter fluid.
I wouldn't advocate this but a few years ago i did try to light the vapors with static and i couldn't.
Like gasoline, the vapors need a specific mix of oxygen and vapor to ignite.
An open flame will do the trick fast and its very hard to extinguish. So no experimenting indoors.

I have used the Kami drum and film cleaner in the past. They are a close relation to the mounting fluid.
They are colored so you don't accidentally mount with film cleaner. That would damage an acrylic drum.

Keith, I know a few people who hate the Kami smell also. I love it but i practically bathe in it so im not a good judge.
I say use what works for you and since Lumina is a commercial product and tested. Its not a real risk in my book.

Thomas, kami is <90% naphtha, <10% mineral spirits and <4% of n-Hexane according to the msds.

Speaking of the inside of a drum, i wrote a life in times of a drum scanner operator post on this forum a while back.
Years ago a good friend of mine was working at a plant, one of his co workers was cleaning the inside of a large Hell drum.
Im not sure if it was Ronsonol or a film cleaner but it wasn't kami. Anyway he was wearing a fuzzy sweater.
He was warned not to do it but did it anyway. He turned the drum into a great flame thrower.
Burned his arm pretty good and added a valuable lesson to the employee handbook. I think the drum survived.

I never let my clothes touch the drum when im cleaning the inside. I always have myself grounded in some way just in case.
Ventilation is very important when using any type of solvents indoors. Before i added a fan, a few hours of mounting was all i could take before feeling sick.

I just re read the Kami msds and i cant figure out how the flashpoint could be 16F.
Its much warmer then that in my office. Shouldn't it go up at room temperature?

[Richard Martel]

Thanks Ian.

Regards, Richard

[Pfeiffer Duckett]

Is the Kami significantly less flammable than Ronsonol?

Although Kami has a lower flash point temperature than Ronsonol, (16F vs 42F), Kami has a much smaller Flammable Limit of 0?%-.5%, and Ronsonol is 1%-7%. This means Kami shouldn't ignite if it has more than .5% of the vapor oxygen mixture is Kami at the point of ignition. Since both would be used in room temperature, Kami is less susceptible to catching fire, but I wouldn't test your luck on it.

[polyglot]

Film cleaner seems to be largely methanol - has anyone tried using that as mounting fluid?

[IanMazursky]

Thanks Pfeiffer for the explanation. I guess i should have paid more attention in chem class.
Kami is pretty safe from what i have said but like anything when flammables are involved, don't try your luck!

[Keith S. Walklet]

Polygot, I am sad to say that i did try mounting with PEC-12, when testing the wet-mount station of a friend's V-750 a few years back. He was out of KAMI and I reasoned that if I cleaned my film with the PEC-12, that it wouldn't hurt to have it sitting on the film for an extended period.

It melted my film. Biggest bummer was that up to that point, I had used the same piece of film to test all the scanners I was comparing.