Fake Schneider lens?

[Songyun]

170431915256

[Dan Fromm]

Eh? Wot? Why do you think it might be a fake?

Who would bother to fake such a common pedestrian lens?

[Oren Grad]

Why do you think it might be a fake?

For one thing, because the labeling on the lens doesn't match the Schneider house style for any generation of any Symmar type.

And the late-model blackface Copal is not contemporaneous for a plain Symmar (though the cells could have been transplanted).

And the front cell looks oddly proportioned, too (although that could partly be a result of photographing it too close with too short a focal length).

I wonder what it is...

[Songyun]

For one thing, because the labeling on the lens doesn't match the Schneider house style for any generation of any Symmar type.

And the late-model blackface Copal is not contemporaneous for a plain Symmar (though the cells could have been transplanted).

And the front cell looks oddly proportioned, too (although that could partly be a result of photographing it too close with too short a focal length).

I wonder what it is...
I have seen a similar lens on Chinese forum. It was believed to be a Korean knock off. If you look carefully on the first image. The letter printed on the barrel is NOT "lens made in Germany" which is how Schneider would print.

[Oren Grad]

If you look carefully on the first image. The letter printed on the barrel is NOT "lens made in Germany" which is how Schneider would print.

That's right. That part is out of focus, so it's hard to make out exactly what it says, but it clearly doesn't match the Schneider standard. On my 135 Apo-Symmar, that part of the labeling says "LENS MADE IN GERMANY" on the top line, and the serial number below that.

[BarryS]

The lens also has a "multicoating" label. I don't believe Schneider introduced multicoating until a few years into the Symmar-S line. The early Symmar-S lenses were single coated, so how would a straight Symmar lens have a factory multicoating?

[Oren Grad]

The lens also has a "multicoating" label. I don't believe Schneider introduced multicoating until a few years into the Symmar-S line. The early Symmar-S lenses were single coated, so how would a straight Symmar lens have a factory multicoating?

That's right too. The whole thing is wrong - wrong wording in several ways, wrong (non-contemporaneous - a couple of decades off) typeface for a plain Symmar, wrong shutter, weird-looking front cell...

[Lee Christopher]

'LENS BY GERMANY' should be a dead give-away!

It apparently sold for US$355!

[Arne Croell]

'LENS BY GERMANY' should be a dead give-away!

It apparently sold for US$355!

Very weird. Under the "Lens by Germany" line there is another one starting with "Product by.." and the last part is not legible. This seems to imply they bought lenses from Schneider and they were then assembled in Korea ?!

It still doesn't make sense to me to copy, counterfeit, or fake a) specifically a large format lens with a decidedly small market and not much collecting going on, at least compared to, say, 35mm Leitz and Zeiss glass, and b) a lens as common as a Symmar! A Biogon 75mm or an Apo-Lanthar fake would have made a bit more sense.

[David McNiven]

Credit where credit is due though - damn good job of faking the Schneideritis...

[Songyun]

Credit where credit is due though - damn good job of faking the Schneideritis...

:D :D :D :D

[Lee Christopher]

Very weird. Under the "Lens by Germany" line there is another one starting with "Product by.." and the last part is not legible. This seems to imply they bought lenses from Schneider and they were then assembled in Korea ?!

It still doesn't make sense to me to copy, counterfeit, or fake a) specifically a large format lens with a decidedly small market and not much collecting going on, at least compared to, say, 35mm Leitz and Zeiss glass, and b) a lens as common as a Symmar! A Biogon 75mm or an Apo-Lanthar fake would have made a bit more sense.

Perhaps it was by someone who loves the idea of LF or LF gear, or just a specialist 'entrepreneur' looking at untapped markets? :D

[Lee Christopher]

Credit where credit is due though - damn good job of faking the Schneideritis...

Err ... maybe that WAS real? :D :D :D

[Arne Croell]

Err ... maybe that WAS real? :D :D :D
maybe..lets spin this a bit further - assume some Korean company bought a bunch of coated and edge painted lens elements from Schneider, likely leftover lenses when they switched from the Symmar-S to the Apo-Symmar and assembled them in their own mounts just for sale on the home market? That would explain the Schneideritis (the edge painting that lifts off in spots) as this would have been done by Schneider; if they were Symmar-S lens elements that would explain the MC label and look and the black Copal since now we are talking later 1980's. Why is not named Symmar-S? Maybe Schneider did not allow it, to keep them from selling it elsewhere? This is all pure speculation of course...

[walter23]

I have seen a similar lens on Chinese forum. It was believed to be a Korean knock off. If you look carefully on the first image. The letter printed on the barrel is NOT "lens made in Germany" which is how Schneider would print.

But it has schneideritis!

[Mike1234]

No... that's chinaritis!!

[Arne Croell]

Back home now, I pulled out the Symmar, Symmar-S, and Apo-Symmar lenses in my collection (210mm, not 150 though) and had another long look at those pictures in the ebay ad. The mounting style of the lens elements and the retainer rings in the cell, the taper of the back cell, the size relation of the front and back cells and the coating colors definitely make me think this is a rebadged multicoated Symmar-S, it all fits perfectly - plus the fact that I can't get my head around the notion of forging a lens like this, it does not make any sense to me. My Symmar-S also has the very same Schneideritis specks shown in the pictures, whereas both my Symmar and Apo-Symmar don't show it. Given the mounting similarities I suspect that Schneider at some point sold unlabeled Symmar-S lens cells (not just elements as I mentioned above) to some company that then relabeled them in clumsy English: the double labeling of "Lens by Germany" and "Product by ..." would corroborate that.

[Songyun]

Back home now, I pulled out the Symmar, Symmar-S, and Apo-Symmar lenses in my collection (210mm, not 150 though) and had another long look at those pictures in the ebay ad. The mounting style of the lens elements and the retainer rings in the cell, the taper of the back cell, the size relation of the front and back cells and the coating colors definitely make me think this is a rebadged multicoated Symmar-S, it all fits perfectly - plus the fact that I can't get my head around the notion of forging a lens like this, it does not make any sense to me. My Symmar-S also has the very same Schneideritis specks shown in the pictures, whereas both my Symmar and Apo-Symmar don't show it. Given the mounting similarities I suspect that Schneider at some point sold unlabeled Symmar-S lens cells (not just elements as I mentioned above) to some company that then relabeled them in clumsy English: the double labeling of "Lens by Germany" and "Product by ..." would corroborate that.
Arne,
If Schneider won't allow them use the label Symmar-S, why would they allow them use Symmar? I mean they can use Symar, Symmer, Summer, whatever they like to use.

[Arne Croell]

Arne,
If Schneider won't allow them use the label Symmar-S, why would they allow them use Symmar? I mean they can use Symar, Symmer, Summer, whatever they like to use.
The plain Symmar name was maybe not as problematic in competing with Schneider-badged lenses when Schneider themselves were selling the Symmar-S or the Apo-Symmar? Or they used it without permission after they already had the cells? I don't know. Does anybody know if Schneider lenses were officialy sold in S. Korea in the late 1970's/early 1980's?

Obviously all of this is speculation...

[rdenney]

Is it possible that this is an older Symmar that was recoated (maybe only the front element) and with the barrel painted and engraved? I can picture the barrel as being chrome, making it an early Symmar. If they removed the retaining ring on the front cell (which is where the label resides on Symmar-Convertible-era lenses) and replaced it with a generic ring after applying a colorful coating to the front element, and then painted the outer barrel black, they would be able to engrave through the paint the label we see. It would be a real Symmar, with real Schneideritis, and a way for a small optical shop that might make, say, cheapie binoculars to make a quality camera lens with very little investment.

I have a 180mm Symmar Convertible and I ought to look at it to compare the barrel shape.

What I can't figure is why the price went so high.

Rick "who paid less than half that for the 180" Denney

[Songyun]

OK, OK, I did some research... And Arne, this is for you :D :D
More puzzle...

[Songyun]

It has NO serial number!

[Oren Grad]

Very interesting! If you google Symmar-Krishna, a bunch of links to Chinese and Korean pages come up.

There are other focal lengths. Look at this one, a 210 in a Copal Press:

http://new.sy916.net/details.php?image_id=42836&sessionid=eec4d77ca136945fa9232c4588832661

[Arne Croell]

Is it possible that this is an older Symmar that was recoated (maybe only the front element) and with the barrel painted and engraved? I can picture the barrel as being chrome, making it an early Symmar. If they removed the retaining ring on the front cell (which is where the label resides on Symmar-Convertible-era lenses) and replaced it with a generic ring after applying a colorful coating to the front element, and then painted the outer barrel black, they would be able to engrave through the paint the label we see. It would be a real Symmar, with real Schneideritis, and a way for a small optical shop that might make, say, cheapie binoculars to make a quality camera lens with very little investment.

I have a 180mm Symmar Convertible and I ought to look at it to compare the barrel shape.

What I can't figure is why the price went so high.

Rick "who paid less than half that for the 180" Denney

Rick, the shape of the back cell doesn't fit a plain Symmar, the 150mm convertible Symmar (not the 210) had a straight cylindrical barrel as the back cell.

[Arne Croell]

Songyun, thanks! That is great! So now its clear that they were "produced" in S. Korea. I don't think a forger would put that on there?! And after seeing the 210, I am sure, if its a fake they at least based it on the Symmar-S, not the plain Symmar.
But I still think it might be the South Korean equivalent of a "Caltar-S II".
The script for the standard "Symmar" and the "Multicoating" as well as the focal length is very similar to the Schneider one, although the slash between 5.6 and 210 or 150 has a different angle. Of course the Krishna-Symmar script is very different.

[Songyun]

Songyun, thanks! That is great! So now its clear that they were "produced" in S. Korea. I don't think a forger would put that on there?! And after seeing the 210, I am sure, if its a fake they at least based it on the Symmar-S, not the plain Symmar.
But I still think it might be the South Korean equivalent of a "Caltar-S II".
The script for the standard "Symmar" and the "Multicoating" as well as the focal length is very similar to the Schneider one, although the slash between 5.6 and 210 or 150 has a different angle. Of course the Krishna-Symmar script is very different.
I was also thinking about the Caltar-S II. It doesn't have serial numbers. However, it does have the "lens made in germany" sign.

[rdenney]

Rick, the shape of the back cell doesn't fit a plain Symmar, the 150mm convertible Symmar (not the 210) had a straight cylindrical barrel as the back cell.

My theory was already undermined by the pictures of the Symmar-Krishna.

Rick "shutting up now" Denney

[Arne Croell]

I was also thinking about the Caltar-S II. It doesn't have serial numbers. However, it does have the "lens made in germany" sign.

I assume Calumet bought complete lenses off the Schneider assembly line incl. the shutter. If we put any value on the "Product by "R.O.K." line, I interpret it such that the lens cells were put into the shutter in Korea, and probably some of the screen printing on the lens barrel was done there, too.

[Lee Christopher]

This is getting too weird for me ...

Kind of remind me (rather obliquely though) of the ironical situation in China or Korea where manufacturers of imitation goods were peeved that their imitations were being imitated and threatened to take the imitators of the imitated imitation goods to court!

[Robert Hughes]

If this is pushed too much, we'd put the entire Far East out of business... weren't the early Nikons blatant, part-for-part ripoffs of western designs?

[Paul Ewins]

I'm guessing that there was some sort of tariff/tax situation that made it viable to assemble (i.e. screw the cells into the shutter) in Korea rather than just buy complete units. The same person has sold a number of "Penta" brand Toyo clones and there was another brand as well, bot made in Korea, so it seems like there was some sort of Korean LF activity.

What I am surprised about is the final price, it does seem rather a lot for a Symmar-S.

[lokomotiva]

I bought one of these "Krishna Symmar" lenses from a Korean site on E-bay. It was sold as "Schneider Symmar Multicoating" and the displayed photos showed neither Krishna nor Schneider. Was surprised with a rather low winning bid of $255. Then I got the lens.
The lens looks clean, barrel has no scratches and the Copal0 shutter appears to be relatively new, although clearly slower at all speeds. On the outer side of the front element it is written: Symmar-KRISHNA 5.6/150 SYMMAR MULTICOATING, then in small letters: Lens by Germany / Product by R.O.K. Upon inquiry, the seller sent me this explanation:
"This afternoon I've advised by a Schneider's licensed lens dealer in my domestic.
Yes, You're right . It's a family version of SCHNEIDER KREUZNACH , made for Asian market -To Japan, Korea, China etc.

Sorry if you've confused with it. But I want to let you know, We Korean do value a Krishna as a Kreuznach because both are from Schneider's brand. And it makes a good image, not easily comparable to both of the output, many Korean commersial photo guys do shoot with Krishina version ( Krishina is a little cheaper than Kreusnach version) . Symmar is a brand as Caltar, Sinaron, But Kriahina Kreuznach are name of province of manufacturer - So they also call it as "a version".

Amazingly Lots of Schneider's lenses are made in a plant in Korea today, most photo guys know it's from Germany. No ! lots are from Korea !!"
I decided to return the lens. Not that I have anything against Korean products, but I would still rather go for German Schneider if I am sold one (even though it might have been made in Korea anyway...). I wonder what Schneider has to say about this?
Hope this helps.
p.s. I did not try the lens - I wish I could. Probably was o.k. Any experiences out there?

[Arne Croell]

I bought one of these "Krishna Symmar" lenses from a Korean site on E-bay. It was sold as "Schneider Symmar Multicoating" and the displayed photos showed neither Krishna nor Schneider. Was surprised with a rather low winning bid of $255. Then I got the lens.
The lens looks clean, barrel has no scratches and the Copal0 shutter appears to be relatively new, although clearly slower at all speeds. On the outer side of the front element it is written: Symmar-KRISHNA 5.6/150 SYMMAR MULTICOATING, then in small letters: Lens by Germany / Product by R.O.K. Upon inquiry, the seller sent me this explanation:
"This afternoon I've advised by a Schneider's licensed lens dealer in my domestic.
Yes, You're right . It's a family version of SCHNEIDER KREUZNACH , made for Asian market -To Japan, Korea, China etc.

Sorry if you've confused with it. But I want to let you know, We Korean do value a Krishna as a Kreuznach because both are from Schneider's brand. And it makes a good image, not easily comparable to both of the output, many Korean commersial photo guys do shoot with Krishina version ( Krishina is a little cheaper than Kreusnach version) . Symmar is a brand as Caltar, Sinaron, But Kriahina Kreuznach are name of province of manufacturer - So they also call it as "a version".

Amazingly Lots of Schneider's lenses are made in a plant in Korea today, most photo guys know it's from Germany. No ! lots are from Korea !!"
I decided to return the lens. Not that I have anything against Korean products, but I would still rather go for German Schneider if I am sold one (even though it might have been made in Korea anyway...). I wonder what Schneider has to say about this?
Hope this helps.
p.s. I did not try the lens - I wish I could. Probably was o.k. Any experiences out there?
The part about the Korean made Schneider lenses refers to the lenses on Samsung digital compact cameras which are made under license from Schneider - similar to the "Leica" lenses on Panasonic digital compacts being made in Japan. The lens cells of the one you had, however, would have been made by Schneider in Kreuznach, just screwed into a shutter in Korea - thats what "Lens by Germany / Product by R.O.K" means, I think.

[duff photographer]

Thread resurrection...

Instead of starting a a new one, I thought I'd add to an old one.

Another fake Schneider lens on ebay, sold as fake getting 147 Euros. The copal shutter is apparently genuine.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/APO-SYMMAR-5-6-180-MULTICOATING-034-KRESFNUCH-034-Copal-1-Linhof-Wista-Lens-Board-/233422740213?hash=item3659145af5%3Ag%3AbDYAAOSwcYVd4U4J&nma=true&si=iqrf2dOHQ4WTXpe5%252BWyUuGASe5Q%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

200483200482

Cheers,
Duff

[Jim Galli]

Just when you thought you'd seen everything . . .

[Drew Wiley]

Never ever underestimate the ability of the Chinese to make knock-offs. The good ones are even stamped and labeled perfectly (doesn't mean the quality is equal). Before I retired, I saw piles of this kind of thing - lots of power tool, very expensive door hardware, much of it very good looking but functionally almost worthless. But the lens picture posted in this case just looks overall fishy. I might work OK, maybe, maybe not, but is certainly an outright deception trying to imitate something known to be pricey. My very favorite example was a line of electric rotary hammers being sold by "factory-direct" truck at a big local flea market. That truck had interchangeable magnetic signs. But from the same source came a Makita rotary hammer with a label stating, "Made in Germany", and a Bosch rotary hammer stating, "Made in Japan". Well, nobody's perfect. Both came to our repair dept after failing within three days, and were obviously unwarranted and unrepairable. Then when they asked who can handle them, the answer was simple, Go to the guy who sells ten dollar Rolex watches out of the trunk of his car, and ask him. I particularly enjoy the Schneider "Kresfnuch" in this case.

[John Kasaian]

B-b-but can they copycat Schneideritis?:rolleyes:

[Drew Wiley]

They just call it Fakeritis. Not all that much worse than arthritis.

[Oren Grad]

I particularly enjoy the Schneider "Kresfnuch" in this case.

Here it is! :)

200498

[duff photographer]

Here it is! :)

200498

You do know that some people are going to believe that little bit of manipulation don't you. ;)

...adding to the web of deception :eek:

[duff photographer]

Never ever underestimate the ability of the Chinese to make knock-offs....

In all seriousness, I'd like to know how they produced it. The shutter, according to the seller, is a genuine copal. Did the factory buy in old lenses very cheaply, spruce them up, re-tag them, and then back onto the market? I can't help being a little impressed by their ingenuity, and in this case, if someone bought such a lens, with its 'Kresfnuch', thinking it's genuine then that someone deserved to be taken ;)

Throughout history, someone somewhere has been producing knock-offs or fakes, even on the rare occasion producing something that is actually better than the original. Also, and not wishing to slip off-topic too much, wasn't there a controversy over a Chinese source producing 'fake' handbags which later turned out to be the same factory that was churning out the same handbags for the likes of Gucci and what-have-you?!

[Bob Salomon]

In all seriousness, I'd like to know how they produced it. The shutter, according to the seller, is a genuine copal. Did the factory buy in old lenses very cheaply, spruce them up, re-tag them, and then back onto the market? I can't help being a little impressed by their ingenuity, and in this case, if someone bought such a lens, with its 'Kresfnuch', thinking it's genuine then that someone deserved to be taken ;)

Throughout history, someone somewhere has been producing knock-offs or fakes, even on the rare occasion producing something that is actually better than the original. Also, and not wishing to slip off-topic too much, wasn't there are controversy over a Chinese source producing 'fake' handbags which later turned out to be the same factory that was churning out the same handbags for the likes of Gucci and what-have-you?!

Look at the Exacta 66 SLR. Heinrich Mandermann bought Praktisix bodies from East Germany, imported them into West Germany, recovered them and relabeled them Exacta.

He was also the man that bought Schneider out of bankruptcy and later added Rollei and B+W.

[Greg]

In all seriousness, I'd like to know how they produced it. The shutter, according to the seller, is a genuine copal. Did the factory buy in old lenses very cheaply, spruce them up, re-tag them, and then back onto the market? I can't help being a little impressed by their ingenuity, and in this case, if someone bought such a lens, with its 'Kresfnuch', thinking it's genuine then that someone deserved to be taken ;)

Throughout history, someone somewhere has been producing knock-offs or fakes, even on the rare occasion producing something that is actually better than the original. Also, and not wishing to slip off-topic too much, wasn't there are controversy over a Chinese source producing 'fake' handbags which later turned out to be the same factory that was churning out the same handbags for the likes of Gucci and what-have-you?!

Was related to me by a photographer in China that there are indeed 2 factories over there buying up lenses in Copal No 3 shutters and one has already marketed rip-offs of LF lenses. I think he was referring to the Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm). Not sure of the other factory or what they are or will be selling.

Were there any updates posted on the Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 lens? Would love a 600mm Fujinon C but their going for prices just too hard to justify. Currently use a barrel 600mm f/9 Apo Ronar which when I use it with a Sinar shutter, well the combo is not exactly portable.

Recently borrowed and used a Chinese rip-off of a large Ries head. I was very impressed by its quality but just not sure how well it will hold up. Cosmetically it did look great.

[Oren Grad]

In all seriousness, I'd like to know how they produced it.

Agree. I imagine there's an interesting story behind it.

[Bernice Loui]

Fake Brand Name lenses.. Will they gain a following due to their image personality?

This becomes a question of perception of what is desirable in the print-image.

What makes a "quality" desirable lens ?

It is the emotional reaction to the perception of a Lie or Fake or untruth that tars the perception of a fake brand name lens into being Un-Desirable - Inferior, but is it really not a good thing or just an emotional reaction?


Bernice

[Arne Croell]

I have a tough time wrapping my head around this one. It is obviously fake, but an Apo-Symmar 180mm is not exactly rare on the used market, why would one want to fake that? Faking a, lets say, late production Zeiss T* Planar 135mm f/3.5 for Linhof would make more sense, or a Fujinon-A 600mm. And somebody apparently looked up the approximate right serial number range for the Apo-Symmar time frame, but then they make those stupid "Krefnuch" and "by Germany" mistakes? Beats me.
€147 for a working Copal shutter and a lens board is not a bad price, btw.

[Drew Wiley]

I see cheap printing on that thing that reminds me exactly of a mere simple generic step ring that proved worthless, and even the black anodizing was fake and rubbed off; the threads didn't fit. In a different kind of industry I had to compete with truckloads, even warehouses full of knockoff items, some of them faked right down to the patent numbers. For one thing, it's illegal and deceptive to do that; importers of such things can and do go to prison if it's egregious enough. For another, you've got about a 99% chance it will be inferior, probably extremely inferior. If some web advertiser clearly states that something is an aftermarket replacement for something else, and not original, that's a different story, at least if the patent for the original has run out. It doesn't have to make sense. Lots of counterfeiting never makes sense, just like most bank robbers are downright stupid. But it still happens. Tripods. I sold US Mfg CST survey tripods. Not Ries quality, but solid and dependable except for ferrous hardware needing period replacement. The Chinese knockoffs looked identical, but the legs slipped, hardware broke almost instantly, and we got called greedy for charging three times as much. At one time we were distributing pre-import Baldwin and Schlage commercial door hardware meant to last decades of hard use. A guy in San Diego started distributing massive quantities of knockoffs that really looked darn good. What would you do - spend $700 per door for hardware from me or half that amount? Well, all those knockoff locks broke within a few months. Word got around, and hopefully the importer learned his lesson too while he was sitting in prison for six years or so. I could write a book on this stuff. And yes, I think it is ethically important not to feed those kinds of parasites, wherever they might be located, because you're just stealing from someone else's legitimate hard work by doing so. The Chinese already have giant optical factories if somebody legit wants to contract with them for their own line of lenses; but the kind of thing we're discussing at the moment is just some kind of slippery small-shop redo of whatever. If I want a shutter cheaply, there are hundreds of used view lenses to choose from already without needing to feed deceptive practices.

[duff photographer]

Just a thought (and I'm going back a little on what I said in my first post #34)...

'Kresfnuch' - Looks like Kreuznach but it isn't.
'Made by Germany' - Not 'in' Germany. A subtle but significant difference.

Technically, this doesn't make it a fake. Misleading maybe. The makers may be ignorant of Latin characters as many westerners are of Arabic characters, for example, but those who are ignorant tend to get the letters mis-shaped. In this case the letters are perfect and it leads me to suspect they knew what they were doing.

While I don't think this is the case here, it is not uncommon for new companies, or possibly in this case entities, to name themselves similarly to well established and reputable companies.

Is it an attempt to avoid copyright? Not knowing the country of origin for the lens (we can assume but not really know) the makers may be open to prosecution on that front. I know that manufacturers of plastic model kits have to change the lettering of extant commercial companies on their kit parts, e.g., 'Continental' on the tyres changed to 'Dontinental'.

'Made by Germany'. Okay, this is reaching somewhat but if they have someone in the factory named 'Germany' then...

Anyway, fun to speculate during the quieter moments of an evening. ;)

Cheers,
Duff.


UPDATE:

Okay, curiosity got the better of me (it's a really quiet evening) so did some internet searching...

It appears that Kresfnuch might be a legitimate 'brand' similar to the Korean Symmar-Krishna mentioned 10 years ago in this same thread and it looks like Arne's speculation (post #14) of 10 years ago may be close to the truth.

References are made on the Galerie-photo.org website http://www.galerie-photo.org/n3-f2,183610.html (where the user is happy with what he thought was a genuine Schneider) and one or two Korean websites.

Seems to have been available in at least 150mm and 180mm.

So maybe not a 'fake' after all!

Cheers,
Duff

[Louis Pacilla]

I thought these fake Schneider lenses came from some operation in South Korea and started showing up sometime in the mid 80's. They obviously didn't flood the market with them but I have seen at least a half dozen over the years. I remember checking one over (a 210 fake Schneider) at Mid-West Photo back in the days when Jim was always around and he gave me a little info on the subject but I can't recall the details except the South Korea origin. I do remember he said his contact/partner in Japan said that many of the faked Schneider lenses made it to Japan. I take the "many" with a grain of salt.

[Drew Wiley]

Of course it's fake if even the lettering is fake. At the very least, it was being deceptively marketed at the time. If they just wanted to clean up and resell the real thing, why not do it the same way we all do, and just like any legitimate dealer does, and just state up front that it's used item and indicate the condition. That Kang Rinpoche 600 example doesn't claim to be a Fuji C 600, but to fill a similar niche, and it's clearly labeled as a different product. Whole different story. And it doesn't matter if Krefsnuch is a Korean brand designation or not. Simply by uniting this to implied German manufacture is indicative of the intention to be deceptive. When view camera use was much more routine than now, you could buy less expensive lenses like those from Bromwell that were honestly marketed. And there are just so darn many real brand-name plasmat lenses out there at the moment at bargain prices that I don't see why anyone would even be tempted with a hokey knockoff unless they just wanted a conversation piece.

[Bob Salomon]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone asked Schneider?

[Drew Wiley]

What if it had been labeled, "Rodenschlok, Gemanie", Bob? Would you bother to ask if there was any connection?

[Bob Salomon]

What if it had been labeled, "Rodenschlok, Gemanie", Bob? Would you bother to ask if there was any connection?

No, but I would want the factory to know that their IP was being violated.

In Schneider’s case the trademark was violated by the use of the Schneider name, the lens name and the lettering logos on the barrel.

We took trademark violations very seriously. When we first began distributing Heliopan we had a problem with someone importing Heliopan from somewhere in Germany and retailing them at an unsustainable price in the USA. That was why Heliopan assigned their trademark to us as we were not a subsidiary of the factory.
Turned out the guy doing this lived in very rural VA, was not registered with the state as a retailer, was not collecting sales tax, was not declaring his earnings on his income tax. He was simply benefiting from our advertising, our exhibiting at shows, our PR, etc..

[duff photographer]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone asked Schneider?

No, that's far too sensible a suggestion! ;)

I'm not that curious but if anyone else is, please feel free and report back.

[Drew Wiley]

Well, there were seemingly some incidental lenses here and there, for sure. But I was operating in construction supplies distribution where tens and even hundreds of thousands of dollars of bribes alone can be transacted with respect to sneaking through massive quantities of substandard components. And we didn't stop with complaints. Detectives and even sometimes the FBI got involved, and people truly did go to prison. Our best catch was the Inspector General of a major city who got 12 years in the slammer. That's much harder to achieve when the Big Box chains do the same kind of deceptive labeling because they have such huge legal departments of their own. But with bribery, which is often involved too, it's easier to get at least a personal conviction, although the corporations themselves just get little slap on the wrist, even though knockoff distribution and false labeling is routine policy. Glad I'm retired. But glad I didn't retire in Florida with some new house reeking with formaldehyde from knock-off substandard drywall, or substandard nails that rust through in six months.

[John Kasaian]

The heart of the matter is this....is it legal to pay for a fake lens with counterfeit money?:rolleyes:

[Drew Wiley]

No. But it is appropriate to use such a lens with falsely branded film.

[Dugan]

No. But it is appropriate to use such a lens with falsely branded film.

...especially when covering fake news stories.

[Drew Wiley]

One more argument just to throw ALL of our lenses and film away and convert to Photoshop. Who needs anything real anymore?