Ebay and PayPal Policies

[Brian Ellis]

I just sold an item on ebay for the first time in a couple years. When I first prepared the listing I said it could be paid for by PayPal, check, money order, etc. The listing wouldn't go through that way, instead I received a notice that payment had to be by PayPal only. So I did that. The item sold and I immediately received a notice from PayPal saying they were holding my money for 21 days, after which I could withdraw it as long as the buyer didn't report any problems (or that maybe they'd be good enough to let me have my money sooner if the buyer posted positive feedback). I don't sell on ebay very often but this is the first time I've run into anything like this. I'm amazed that I have to ship my item without being able to first withdraw my money. And if the buyer reports a problem he still has the item I sold but I don't have the money.

I'm just curious - is this now the standard ebay/PayPal policy i.e. does everyone get subjected to this 21 day treatment or have I been singled out for some reason (I have 100% positive feedback on ebay so it certainly isn't related to any past problems I've had).

Moderators - if this is in the wrong place please move it or feel free to delete it if it's considered an inappropriate topic for the LF forum.

[percepts]

I have had this happen to me and I got a bullshit message about it being for my protection.
The hold is waved if you have enough history of selling. But I suspect in my case the real reason it was held was because the buyer had just signed up and made first purchase. Ebay thinks this may be fraudulent use of a card for payment so won't let you take the money as you could just take money and stop any charge backs. If it was card fraud then you lose out unless you can convince ebay to pay up. They won't tell you that though.
Just mail the buyer and tell them ebay has put a hold on payment and that you won't release item until they do. Also in future spell it out in selling terms that you won't ship until ebay release the funds.

Banks are bastards

[Lachlan 717]

Did you check the "Immediate payment required" option? (I've never seen the scenario that you described...)

[Bob Salomon]

They did that to me once. As soon as I received notice of what they did and how much they were holding - without paying me interest while they used my money - I called them and was told that that was policy. I asked for a supervisor and was tol the same thing. I asked for his supervisor and in very strong language explained that I expected the monies to be deposited in my bank within 24 hours or I would immediately file small claims court proceedings.

The money was in my bank the next day.

[Mike1234]

FeeBay and Pay-thru-the-nose-Pal continue to get worse and worse and worse. I quit greedBay and Pay-me-all-of-it-Pal years ago.

[Lachlan 717]

FeeBay and Pay-thru-the-nose-Pal continue to get worse and worse and worse. I quit greedBay and Pay-me-all-of-it-Pal years ago.

With all due respect to your (probably correct!!) feelings
to eBay/PayPal, for the sake of those still not fully p#ssed off with it, can we please try to let the information, rather than the vitriol, come out in this thread?

Otherwise, I feel that your sentiment will be reiterated ad nauseum!!

[eddie]

a few questions.
did you verify your bank address, and maybe SS #? this will make using some features easy and it will give your account more credibility. this may help. i do not know. i have to verify the above to be able to with drawl more than $500 per month. i have had no problems so far.

i think it will only hurt you to hold the item for 21 days......your innocent buyer will be the only affected party. just add a nice not e saying you have left him pos feedback and would the buyer please do this after the item has been received. most people are good......

my wife has just opened a PP account (and e bay!....she has been "gambling" already!) so i will see what happens to her and see if we can get the cash any other way or faster.....maybe i will buy something form her just to make the test.

i try and play within the PP rules....so far so good. a few things to keep in mind. i insure the package no matter what. i assume ebay and PP will not cover me. PP sellers protection appears to be only non delivery or unauthorized signature....nothing else. i use the PO insurance. anything over $300 gets you a signature that you need for PP by default. paying the $2 for signature confirm is not worth it....you may as well just buy the insurance.

a second more important thing i learned is that PP does not warranty the goods condition. i learned this from a forum member here....he got screwed by another forum member a while back. basically IF you buy something and you are suspect of the buyer or just want to be covered USE your credit card as the funding source! for example if you buy a watch and a rock comes inside the package PP will not cover you! (your CC should and ebay goods are covered) they say they do not warranties condition! that is just F ed up......

oh! i also ship 90% of the stuff priority mail....fast and cheap if you are going a long way. neither you or the buyer will have to wait to long this way. NY-Ca takes 2 days usually. so if you go PM and ask the buyer ti leave pos feedback you should have your money in 3-5 days. (about as long as an e check takes)

please keep us posted on how this goes and when/if you have this hold lifted in the future. OH! maybe if you have proof of delivery you will get your $$ sooner.

eddie

[Juergen Sattler]

As others have stated - this happens when you do not sell very often on eBay. They will hold your money for 21 days or until your buyer has left positive feedback. I don't think there is anything you can do about it - eBay and Paypal have gotten very buyer-only oriented - they seem to think that sellers are by default crooks. The pendulum has swung too far IMHO.

[Len Middleton]

Interestingly, while PayPal is obligatory for sellers on most of the English language feeBay sites (USA, UK, Australia), it is not on feeBay Canada. You could still list (mind you I have not done so in some time) on the Canada site even if you did not take PayPal.

I do not know for certain the reasons for that, but it may be related to Canadian banking laws. And with sincere apologies to ducks everywhere, it may be that if it walks like a banker and quacks like a banker, then it may be viewed as a banker by the Canadian banking laws. And if you do not comply, you do not play.

As a mandatory financial service, it would presumeably get closer observation than it would as a optional service.

Just some observations and speculation...

[Bill_1856]

- eBay and Paypal have gotten very buyer-only oriented - they seem to think that sellers are by default crooks.

As a buyer-only, I disagree. To me they seem to be leaning over backwards for the sellers. Apparently it is an equal-opportunity screwer.

[Oren Grad]

Official policy here:

https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/Marketing/securitycenter/sell/SaferPayments

[Oren Grad]

Scratch that - you need to log in to see that page, which is unreasonable given how important and fundamental it is. Here's the content:

________________________________

PayPal Payment Holds

We're committed to providing you and your customers with a fast and secure payment service while keeping our prices competitive. To keep ourselves on track, we've established a Funds Availability Policy.

We might be throwing some new words at you here, but we promise to explain them in full detail. As part of our Funds Availability Policy, "reserves" may apply to certain accounts. A reserve is a percentage of your payments that'll be released at a later date. A related term is "payment hold." A payment hold is a type of reserve in which 100% of the funds received are held for a specified amount of time.

Payment hold - a longer definition

A payment hold is an amount of money that belongs to you, set aside by PayPal, while we make sure that your customers are satisfied. The funds for payments received are held temporarily as a pending balance in your account, and released at the end of the given hold timeframe. The funds may be released early if PayPal determines that the transaction has been fulfilled and your customers are satisfied.

Why does PayPal use payment holds?

Payment holds ensure that sellers have sufficient funds in their account if, for example, a customer files a dispute. This allows PayPal to provide a fast and secure payment service to you and your customers while keeping our prices competitive.

We know this is a change in the way we do business with you and we hope you understand that, if you incur a payment hold, you haven’t done anything wrong. In deciding whether to apply payment holds, we review many factors including transaction activity, business type, and customer disputes.

When do payment holds apply?

Payment holds may be applied to some or all transactions in your account if PayPal perceives a risk associated with your account. Here are some common reasons for holding payments:

•You have been an eBay and PayPal member for less than 6 months, and, have limited selling activity, or
•You have an eBay feedback score of less than 100, and do not have a record of good performance or
•You have a Buyer dissatisfaction percentage of 5% or greater than 5%, or
•You have an average Detailed Seller Rating (DSR) of less than 4.5, or
•You have received fewer than 20 Detailed Seller Ratings in the last 12 months, or
•You have a high rate of customer disputes
•You're selling in a high risk category or industry such as, but not limited to, tickets, travel, gift certificates, computers, consumer electronics, or cell phones
•You have a spike in selling activities or begin selling in a category without an established history

If your account is subject to payment holds, PayPal will provide you with notice specifying the terms. The terms may require that the amounts received into your account are held for a certain period of time.

If PayPal places payment holds on your account, the funds will be shown as “pending” in your PayPal balance.

When does PayPal release payment holds?

Payments will be held in a pending balance for a certain time period. For example, if you receive a $100 payment (after fees), the $100 will be held in a pending balance for that amount of time. After then, the money will be available for withdrawal.

The money may be released sooner if:

1.We can confirm that the item was delivered
2.Your buyer leaves positive feedback. (Applies only to eBay items.)

To get access to this money more quickly, please process this order right away and communicate with your customers early and often.

What can I do to avoid payment holds?

Here are some things you can do:

•Improve your DSR feedback rating
•Process your orders right away
•Communicate early and often with your buyers
•Resolve all customer disputes quickly

If you meet the following, you'll receive payments instantly in most cases:

•You have been an eBay and PayPal member for 6-months or more, AND
•Your total Feedback score is 100 or greater, AND
•Your Buyer dissatisfaction percentage is less than 5% AND
•You are selling in a category or industry with an established history.

Or

•Your average DSR is 4.5 or greater AND
•Your have received 20 or more DSRs in the last 12-months AND
•Your buyer dissatisfaction percentage is less than 5% AND
•You are selling in a category or industry with an established history.

I’m a new seller. Will payments I receive be held?

If you’re a new seller with PayPal, we may hold your payments until you establish payments history and a record of good performance.

I’m a tenured PayPal seller. Will payments I receive be held?

If you don’t have a record of good performance or have limited selling activity or other indication of potential performance problems, your payments may be held.

[SW Rick]

"A payment hold is an amount of money that belongs to you, set aside by PayPal, while we make sure that your customers are satisfied. "

So it would seem that it involves not just delivery, but also customer satisfaction with the item?

[rguinter]

This policy change occurred ca. January 2009. Paypal is fully owned by ebay and the bottom line is they collect more fees when buyers and sellers subscribe to paypal. That is their driver.

I have been an ebay buyer for about 10-years and an occasional seller. But I decided long ago that I would never under any circumstances join paypal. I feel it is a huge security risk to have this pseudo-financial institution handling my personal and financial data.

Ebay also can't completely force transactions to go through paypal because that would be in violation of US Antitrust Laws. But as we all see, they are making it exceedingly difficult to operate there without a paypal account. I am probably one of the few buyers that still do.

I'm waiting for a class action lawsuit to begin for violation of US Antitrust. When it does I will be willing to contribute a substantial sum to support the litigation against paypal. Bob G.

[Mike1234]

Class Action Lawsuit?? Perhaps the biggest in history!! :D

[Brian Ellis]

Thanks for the various responses. I spoke with a Pay Pal customer service representative today, she was of no help, so I spoke with her supervisor who likewise was of no help. The supervisor told me this 21-day hold policy applies to sellers who have been ebay members for less than 6 months, who have 5% or more negative feedback, or who have fewer than 100 positive feedbacks. I've been an ebay member for 10 years and have no negative feedbacks. But I only have 83 positive feedbacks (100%) so they're holding the money because I'm under 100.

The thing that bothers me if I ship is that the buyer has my camera, I don't have the money, and if he chooses to tell Pay Pal there's a problem I'm just sitting there high and dry. I imagine it would eventually be resolved, hopefully they wouldn't return the money to him without my telling them the camera has been returned, but it just doesn't seem to me to be good business practice to ship something without first being paid and I don't consider Pay Pal holding the money to be the same as having the money in my bank account.

Anyhow, thanks again for the responses.

[Brian Ellis]

Well, I remember a fleabag that lived in Mexico about a 1.5 ago who fleeced a couple of us. (said he was getting out of photography). One member bought a Hassy system and got nothing (lost thousands). I'm sure many of us remember the incident. A seller is getting hard earned cash in 21 days and with no risk (held by PayPal)! The buyer is less well off....the product may be stolen, not in the condition promised, damaged in transit and then must deal with more problems, etc. It makes sense that he should be protected, and the only way is to withhold funds until the product is inspected.

Some sellers may not like the fact that someone is using their goods without receiving any payment....but that is the way business runs. BestBuy gives a 30 day money back gurantee and get the use of their product. Some goods they return to stock as new, and some new goods can no longer be resold as new (eg- big screen tv's have a time counter in the service menu and are resold at a discount). You only have to wait 21 days to get your money (but you WILL get it). If you don't like it, sell it through the newspaper, consignement, or in this group. All things considered, you might find these alternatives even less satisfactory.

Sorry but this isn't "the way business runs." Try buying something from B&H. Tell them to go ahead and ship the item and you'll pay them 21 days later. See what happens.

Best Buy set its own return policies. Presumably they figured that the losses from returned items that have to be discounted is more than offset by the additional business they gain through their liberal return policies. I didn't set the 21 day hold policy, a third party set it for me. Big difference.

[Len Middleton]

The thing that bothers me if I ship is that the buyer has my camera, I don't have the money, and if he chooses to tell Pay Pal there's a problem I'm just sitting there high and dry. I imagine it would eventually be resolved, hopefully they wouldn't return the money to him without my telling them the camera has been returned, but it just doesn't seem to me to be good business practice to ship something without first being paid and I don't consider Pay Pal holding the money to be the same as having the money in my bank account.

Brian,

It does not necessarily work that way all the time...

I had a friend tell me about a situation where the buyer filed a dispute even before they were due to receive it. My understanding was that the buyer got the goods, and my friend did not get paid.

Now I do not know / remember all the details to the story (e.g. shipping method with confirmation) and how long ago that was (maybe PayPal has got a little more sophisticated?), but I do not doubt it happened then.

Maybe things are different now. :)

Regards,

Len

[SamReeves]

I liked the old days of eBay best. You could pay with check or money order. As a seller it was nice since you could avoid all the Pay Pal fees as mentioned above. I've given up on both fronts since Pay Pal seems to be the only choice now.

[Mike1234]

Maybe feeBay will finally greed itself out of business along with the latest craigslist search engines up and running... too bad feebay owns a big chunk of craigslist though. They'll surely muck that up too. :(

[Len Middleton]

Maybe feeBay will finally greed itself out of business along with the latest craigslist search engines up and running... too bad feebay owns a big chunk of craigslist though. They'll surely muck that up too. :(

Mike,

I thought it was Kijiji they owned...

Do they control Craigslist too? :eek:

Len

[Mike Tobias]

Actually, it seems the 21 day hold is becoming very common place with PayPal. They kindly slapped my account with this just before Christmas without my noticing. No note, no explanation. If you read the fine print in their user agreement, they pretty much say that they can hold your money for any reason and for nearly any length of time they see fit. In 10 years on eBay I have 4 negative feedbacks, can count all the times I've had buyer disputes through PayPal on one hand, and none of my "DSRs" are below 4.5. For whatever reason, PayPal just decided to slap me with a 21 day hold on everything, and this also includes payments that go through PayPal but not from eBay! I've decided I'm going to sell all the remaining stuff I have on eBay, and be done with them as soon as I get a chance.

I should also mention, that the 21 day hold is actually fairly mild for some. My company decided to open an online version of our business, and so naturally we were going to use PayPal for some payments. My business partner discovered that they will also process credit cards at a fair rate, and so we applied for their merchant services. They instantly froze all our funds in the account while it was under "review." A week later when they decided to unfreeze our funds and approve our application, they also cheerfully announced that because of our "high risk" they were holding 30% of all funds coming through the account for 60 days. I can't imagine any business that can operate with that sort of constraint, and I can't also think of any other merchant that applies those sort of absurd standard. Our own bank (who we run in-store sales through) takes 3 days to process a payment, and we've never had any trouble in 5 years.

Another thing to note, and something that started me thinking, was something I read somewhere else online. Ebay profits have been plummeting like a rock, and eBay owns PayPal. At any given time PayPal probably has hundreds of millions, if not a couple billion, in held funds. All this probably looks great on the books. And PayPal is not regulated by any banking laws that I'm aware of, and thus not FDIC insured.

Ebay does own a share of craigslist, although they're currently suing eachother. The jist of what I've been able to glean from news reports is that they signed a non-compete agreement before eBay was allowed to sit on the board, then eBay opened Kijiji, and craigslist is accusing them of gaining access to the CL corporation simply to glean information to undermine craigslist. There's a lot more on the CL blog, but it should also be noted that eBay does not own a controlling share, and if the CL executives win their lawsuit, they'll likely not own any at all.

Mike

[Mike1234]

Mike,

I thought it was Kijiji they owned...

Do they control Craigslist too? :eek:

Len

Yes... 20 percent the last I heard.

[neil poulsen]

I have mixed emotions about this policy.

On the one hand, I don't like the idea that a buyer could say something hasn't arrived when it has and then keep the money. So, I make sure that I always ship USPS Priority with insurance and request delivery confirmation. Plus, it gets there quicker, and buyer pays. I don't know if deliver confirmation is enough, but it would help make a case. I currently have a valuable lens up for auction, and I've stated I will ship USPS Express with returned signature. Plus, Express Mail comes with complete tracking.

At the same time, I don't like the idea of getting fleeced by a seller. This has happened to me once, and I lost over $90. Thereafter, I was very careful about sellers having at least 100 feedback, all good. The thief who stole my money had only 21 or so.

As to the delay, it protects me as a buyer, and I don't feel that I need to be as cautious about seller feedback numbers. (How many feedback.) So, I have more purchasing options.

I resisted PayPal initially, but I had no choice if I wanted to sell. (Which I did and do.) Now that I'm settled in with PayPal (so to speak), shipments are much quicker and feedback is quick. No need to pay for money orders. Just to avoid problems, I'm very careful to accurately describe and photograph items that I sell. Lots of pictures. I sell "As Is", so no returns as yet. As to the extra charge, I don't like it. But, consider the market I'm reaching for the items I sell, and with no advertising. (Except for EBay.) I still consider EBAy a good deal, better than paying 20% commission at the local pro shop for a very small exposure.

[Brian Ellis]

I liked the old days of eBay best. You could pay with check or money order. As a seller it was nice since you could avoid all the Pay Pal fees as mentioned above. I've given up on both fronts since Pay Pal seems to be the only choice now.

I agree. I don't sell all that much but I'll be using ebay only as a last resort from now on.

Among other problems, it seems to me that the 21 day policy completely negates a seller's refund policies. I usually say in my listing that I'll refund the purchase price if the buyer notifies me within 3 days that he or she will be returning the item and ships it back to me within seven days. Now that's completely out the window. The buyer can use the camera for almost three weeks, decide he doesn't want it, and tell Pay Pal there's a problem. In which case my refund policy as stated in the listing is meaningless.

Live and learn I guess.

[Mike1234]

BS... the longer they hold your funds the longer they can invest YOUR capital into other ventures. You're being USED!!

[srbphoto]

eddie - "for example if you buy a watch and a rock comes inside the package PP will not cover you! (your CC should and ebay goods are covered) they say they do not warranties condition! that is just F ed up......"

They shouldn't warranty condition. Condition is subjective. One persons good is another's poor, is another's excellent.

A rock intead of a watch showing up is not a condition problem it is a fraud/theft problem. Paypal has a resolution policy if what you receive is different from what you purchased.

[neil poulsen]

I agree. I don't sell all that much but I'll be using ebay only as a last resort from now on.

Among other problems, it seems to me that the 21 day policy completely negates a seller's refund policies. I usually say in my listing that I'll refund the purchase price if the buyer notifies me within 3 days that he or she will be returning the item and ships it back to me within seven days. Now that's completely out the window. The buyer can use the camera for almost three weeks, decide he doesn't want it, and tell Pay Pal there's a problem. In which case my refund policy as stated in the listing is meaningless.

Live and learn I guess.

That's a good point on not being able to refund. I'm wondering if there's a way around that? EBay always urge sellers and buyers to work out problems on their own, so there may be a way around it. It's worth checking.

[Curt Palm]

..... and I don't consider Pay Pal holding the money to be the same as having the money in my bank account.

Anyhow, thanks again for the responses.

Pay Pal tends to think the money in your bank account is theirs too, at least the account you have linked to your paypal account. They can transfer money out of that account if they think it is necessary without notification.

[neil poulsen]

At the same time, 21 days is a bit much. Maybe 3 to 5 days would be sufficient.

Bob's comment is also very interesting. It sounds like maybe the legitimate venue for a court case is at the EBay user location.

[RmFrase]

My experience with PayPal is as follows:

They hold your funds until either the 21 day period has expired OR if the purchaser has provided Positive Feedback.
If you receive Positive Feedback, notify Paypal and generaly, they'll release the funds within about 24hrs.
If you receive NO Feedback period, and 21 days has expired, then contact Paypal to release the funds.

In order to get Immediate payment without the 21 day wait, you have to have (100) transactions. (my assumptions that's 100 positive transactions, but I haven't read the contrary.) After that time, they remove the 21-day Hold.

Irrigardless if you mark Immediate Payment on your auction (etc,) they'll hold it until any of the previous statements have transpired.

I hope this helps.

[Len Middleton]

They instantly froze all our funds in the account while it was under "review." A week later when they decided to unfreeze our funds and approve our application, they also cheerfully announced that because of our "high risk" they were holding 30% of all funds coming through the account for 60 days. I can't imagine any business that can operate with that sort of constraint, and I can't also think of any other merchant that applies those sort of absurd standard. Our own bank (who we run in-store sales through) takes 3 days to process a payment, and we've never had any trouble in 5 years.

Another thing to note, and something that started me thinking, was something I read somewhere else online. Ebay profits have been plummeting like a rock, and eBay owns PayPal. At any given time PayPal probably has hundreds of millions, if not a couple billion, in held funds. All this probably looks great on the books. And PayPal is not regulated by any banking laws that I'm aware of, and thus not FDIC insured.

Ebay does own a share of craigslist, although they're currently suing eachother. The jist of what I've been able to glean from news reports is that they signed a non-compete agreement before eBay was allowed to sit on the board, then eBay opened Kijiji, and craigslist is accusing them of gaining access to the CL corporation simply to glean information to undermine craigslist. There's a lot more on the CL blog, but it should also be noted that eBay does not own a controlling share, and if the CL executives win their lawsuit, they'll likely not own any at all.

Mike,

Thanks for clarifying some of that.

Wow, would that one hell of a hit to a small business!!! Freeze your account, and hold part of the payment for up to 60 days. Certainly I can understand your business is "high risk", but did they indicate at all how much on an impact they would have creating some of that risk??!!

Companies do not become insolvent because they are unprofitable (e.g. dot com boom). They become insolvent because they cannot pay the bills (e.g. dot com bust). That is a cash flow issue. Once the cash dries up (e.g. deep pockets get less deep, investors no longer invest, or business expansion causes working capital requirements to exceede cash available).

Much like the credit card companies, they make money on the "float". So dragging out payment to the seller is not just in their interests to keep them "off the hook" for the payment from the buyer, but also keeping up their own cash flow and the money float.

So we potentially have an organization acting as a bank, without imposing banking reguations (e.g. including holding reserves), and if its parent company gets in trouble...

Certainly interesting to see if this little soap opera plays out...

Sorry if the financial discussion is a "blinding flash of the obvious" to you, but not everyone understands the issues involved.

Regards,

Len

[Mike1234]

Bottom line... you're all being USED. Does that feel good? I haven't done feeBay or Pay-it-all-Pal in years and I'm happy to give up the privelege of being screwed.

[brian mcweeney]

Pay Pal tends to think the money in your bank account is theirs too, at least the account you have linked to your paypal account. They can transfer money out of that account if they think it is necessary without notification.

A good reason to set up a secondary account with your bank. Keep the minimum balance required in it and transfer out your funds when they become available.

[eddie]

eddie - "for example if you buy a watch and a rock comes inside the package PP will not cover you! (your CC should and ebay goods are covered) they say they do not warranties condition! that is just F ed up......"

They shouldn't warranty condition. Condition is subjective. One persons good is another's poor, is another's excellent.

A rock intead of a watch showing up is not a condition problem it is a fraud/theft problem. Paypal has a resolution policy if what you receive is different from what you purchased.


well i am just quoting what paypal said to my friend the buyer. they consider it a warranty of condition...basically it was not in described condition as it was ANOTHER product altogether. paypal's resolution policy that you speak of does not cover goods outside of e bay! be aware of this. use your credit card so you have some recourse as a buyer. the above example i gave is true. paypal was no help. they would not refund the buyers money...really!

like i said above. i use priority mail. it gets there fast. it says if you can prove delivery....insurance above 300 gets you a signature....perfect to prove they got it (confirmed address). so if it only takes 2-3 days to arrive, you prove it you should be good. a PITA for sure but better than 21 days.

another option is to get your own credit card acceptance...this can be done through sams club (that i know of) it is more than paypal but you will have none of the above issues. i looked into it as e bay says you need to accept an online payment....so if you got your own "swiping" machine you will be all set.


A good reason to set up a secondary account with your bank. Keep the minimum balance required in it and transfer out your funds when they become available.

yes, this is what i do. i have a paypal only account. i move money out of paypal the instant i get it and then out of that account.

eddie

[srbphoto]

Actually, if you go into Paypal they show you what to do if it is not an ebay purchase and the item is different than what you purchased. It's under buyer protection.

I don't question your friend had problems with the people on the phone. Anytime I have ever had a purchase problem (though I have never had a problem with ebay or Paypal and I have over 1700 transactions with them) I research the companies policies and then call. It's surprising how many times the customer service people do not know what the policy is. Of course, they are usually the lowest paid people and are constantly being hammered about their "metrics". Their incentive is to get you off the phone. Not bashing the individuals, just the system larger companies set up.

I agree about the secondary account (I do that also) and I always go with something that can be tracked.

[srbphoto]

eddie - BTW is that really your last name? You should shoot there. Some awesome cliffs and climbing!

[Thebes]

I just recently got this. I've been on eBay for over a decade and had no paypal complaints. I had not been entering shipping info because I couldn't find where the corporate overlords had put that link. It seems that they changed something about the 21 day hold very recently because google revealed a lot more of it, some ppl saying that paypal will start doing it to all small sellers soon. Anyway, I entered the shipping info on the item with the held funds and it was made available about 12 hours later. Might be helpful to some, they could make the link for it easier to find though, if this is so important to them.... everytime I get used to how their sites are set up they change it again!

[rguinter]

I liked the old days of eBay best. You could pay with check or money order. As a seller it was nice since you could avoid all the Pay Pal fees as mentioned above. I've given up on both fronts since Pay Pal seems to be the only choice now.

Sam: You still can pay that way but the new rules are that one must ask the seller first if they will accept a check or money order payment. This is what I do whenever I intend to bid on something. So far I have had about 95% sellers agree but my feedback rating is 100%+ with 600 or so feedbacks.

I was not an ebay user until Yahoo Auctions closed. I did all my business on the Yahoo site until that time. When they closed then I switched to ebay which I never truly trusted. But overall I think I have over 1000 transactions between the two sites since the mid 1990s.

For all of those transactions my standard payment policy has been as follows: for payments up to about $50 I sent cash in the mail. Sometimes up to $100 if I had a good enough feeling about the item and the seller. Over that I sent either personal checks or money orders. I never paid for insurance on any of the items except 1. That was a 1970 Guild D-25 acoustic guitar.

I never lost a letter in the mail and not one seller ever cheated me. Once when an item arrived broken due to poor packaging I contacted the seller in Australia via email. he promptly called me on the phone long distance to apologize and sent me another similar item of greater value.

The only item that never arrived was the Guild guitar which we later determined was stolen by the FedEx driver who never logged it in. The seller reimbursed me and I learned later that FedEx made good on the insurance value.

Bottom line: even if I lost a cash payment in the mail today for something or had a seller cheat me out of my purchase, for over 1000 successful transactions I am far ahead of the game dollar-wise.

So as long as it is still feasible to continue this way I will do so.

And when the lawsuit against paypal finally begins I intend to contribute substantially.

Bob G.

[rguinter]

A good reason to set up a secondary account with your bank. Keep the minimum balance required in it and transfer out your funds when they become available.

Brian has a point and a method to (attempt) to protect his financial data. But do any of you think it is a good idea to have such a third-rate company as paypal handling your personal financial data?

I for one do not and I will never give them that info. My opinion is paypal is ripe for fraud and I feel it is just a matter of time before someone there steals client's financial info and uses it or hackers break in and download everyones account info.

The only financial entity that has my data is my bank and that is the only entity that will ever have it.

Bob G.

[rguinter]

Gee the references to Craigslist has me thinking maybe I'm famous by association. I mean who in the world has never heard of Craigslist? Anyone?

I went to school with Craig Newmark who founded Craigslist. He was a year or so behind me. Small world ain't it?

For what it's worth........... Bob G.

[eddie]

eddie - BTW is that really your last name? You should shoot there. Some awesome cliffs and climbing!

har har har. i live here/there. about 6 miles to cliff side. climbed there for many many years. love(d) it. some of the best rock for climbing on earth....really. later i climbed some walls in the valley.....those were the days....:)

eddie

[srbphoto]

Amen! I used to live in the Valley. I know the feeling!

[goamules]

I've been lucky to keep 50 or so sales a year on OhBoy, so held funds never occured. If it began to occur, I would put some fine print in my ad: "Due to Ebay/Paypal policy of withholding funds, I cannot ship until the funds are released. If you pay by other means I will ship immediately."

I've noted a lot of buyers still like to send money orders or checks, and I always go for that if they ask. PP has never screwed me, other than the fees they screw me with every sale....wait.....

As far as the conspiracy theorists who ask, "why let paypal control your personal finances...", um...they don't. They know my bank account number, the one I use just for FeeBay. Maximum amount in it is a couple hundred dollars. Those of us who do online banking know MANY entities "control" small parts of our lives. The trick is to make it where they can't hurt much.

For example with PP. If you sell, say, a $5000 camera outfit, do not ship until payment is cleared, moved out of paypal into your bank, and then moved to your "real" bank. It just takes a few clicks.

[Michael Filler]

Dear Forum members.

Everyone seems to be mad at e-bay and paypal. I look at it as a cost of a service.

Now before I start let me say I don't have any connection with these companies other than my use of the service, and that I too was a little POed each time the upp'ed the ante. That said, they make a market for our stuff and make it easy to get the money.

E-bay is about an inch deep and a world wide. If you have some odd ball thing to sell, you will likely find a buyer there. If you need something you can find nowhere else seems to be the same. The market decides on the price, and you get to decide to play (bid).

I have done a fair amount of business with the art auction houses, and most take a 20% cut from BOTH the buyer and the seller. That means the auction house is keeping about 50% of the money! (the buyer premiums are on top of the sales price and the sellers is out of the hammer price). And you may still have to pay them to accept your item into their catalog.

I was Ticked Off about E-bay insisting you have some form of online payment, but they still don't require that it be PayPal, and you can still accept checks, MOs, postal orders, sheep and chickens, whatever you work out between you and the seller.

Regarding PayPal, I think they are trying to protect all parties, and are in an awkward spot. I mean, really, who really loves their bank, credit card company, insurance provider, the government, etc. They take their little 4% and pretty much take the hassle out of the process. For me it is a part of doing business. If I was running a brick and mortar retail outlet I'd be paying the same % to the credit card company to process my transactions.

Lastly (well not really), it seems the 21 days will not apply to those with a long history of positive transactions and satisfied customers. It doesn't take long to build the numbers they are looking for. (I am plane_rider on e-bay)

And one more thing. on this forum I regularly see the seller asking the buyer to pay his PayPal fees. That seems cheap to me. It doesn't happen to me when I buy at B&H or Amazon. It is sort of like jacking up shipping costs and adding junk "handling" fees. I think we should all accept that there is some cost to these service providers and that the service is worth it. In some states it is illegal to charge more for a product because a buyer uses other than cash. That is why the gas pumps in Illinois have a cash discount, rather than a credit card fee. How many of us offer the buyer a 4% discount if they mail cash? I thought so.

I recently bought something through the For Sale forum and was charged about $30 for shipping by the seller. It was damaged due to poor packaging, and I had a bit of a hassle getting the seller to accept a return on their dime and to replace the item, like somehow I should help them out because they now had lost the value of the thing. It all worked out OK, but when returning the item I was able to ship in 3 days for $10 what took them 2 weeks at $30. Who was ripping who off there? I won't name names, but I just mention it to illustrate that we aren't all Saints.

My policy on sales is always to treat the customer how I'd like to be treated.
I don't ask for him to pay my overhead, handling costs, PP fees, packaging materials or the food for the dog that guards the back door.

I only charge the actual cost of shipping. I do use Priority, insured, and if the thing is big $ get a signature. That is a cost of shipping, and the buyer pays it because it protects us both.

I offer a 7 day free trial to the buyer. If he accepts he will pay the round trip shipping. Any reason, including but not limited to bad Karma.

If I screwed up the ad, bad description or something I pay all the shipping and take it back, or work out something to the buyer's satisfaction. I don't expect anyone to eat something that I screwed up. Let's all take a little personal responsibility in this world.

You know, for the most part all of this activity is untaxed (or at least uncollected), and in many states (NY MA and IL) the tax approaches 10% if we buy in stores. I think we are getting off cheap.

I really feel sorry for the guy who recently placed an ad for an 8x10, where he used a little hyperbole (marketing hype) in his title. From what I can tell he accurately described within the ad what was for sale, and even was asking fair prices. Still, his thread ran to several pages, mostly from people that probably wouldn't buy a Deardorff VS8 for $20 unless it was factory fresh, came with a Schneider 300XL or whatever and the seller agreed to provide film and process for the next year at no additional charge.

Well if you got this far please accept my apologies for feeling like I (also) needed to vent my spleen.


Kindest regards to all,

Michael Filler

[BrianShaw]

I agree, and I'm not mad at ebay or paypal!

[Michael Filler]

Sorry Brian

I forgot what your original letter was asking, ala "I'm curious", and "is this normal policy."

I got caught up in the moment, hearing only the subsequent fleabay and pay-it-all through the nose type negative comments.

My apologies to the members. This is a great forum.

I wonder if those folks in China have these kinds of services and the freedom to talk freely about it.


Sincerely,

Michael Filler

[Helcio J Tagliolatto]

As a buyer-only, I disagree. To me they seem to be leaning over backwards for the sellers. Apparently it is an equal-opportunity screwer.

I agree to Bill. As a buyer-only, from Brazil, PayPal is a safe place to stay.

[Vlad Soare]

I don't know how eBay and PayPal look from a seller's perspective, but as a buyer located outside US I find them the best inventions since sliced bread. :)

Last month I bought something from eBay Germany, and the seller didn't accept PayPal. He accepted either cash payment on pick-up, or bank transfer. I don't know if the "you must accept PayPal" rule only applies to eBay US, or only to certain sellers, but exceptions do exist.
It may have to do with local legislation. It may be that the practice of imposing a certain payment method is illegal in Europe (or just in Germany in particular), though this is just speculation on my part - I must confess I don't know the law too well.

I'm surprised that the US legislation allows for this practice. My impression was that US anti-trust law was far more restrictive than the European one. It seems odd to me that they can bash Microsoft for something as benign as giving Internet Explorer for free, for instance, and still allow eBay to force a service of their own upon their customers. :confused:
I must be missing something. I would be interested in the comments of someone knowledgeable about US commercial and anti-trust law.

[Greg Miller]

FWIW - I'm no EBay or Paypal apologist, but Paypal fees aren't very different than the credit card merchants. Try setting up a credit card merchant account and see what the monthly and per trasactions fees add up to.

The banks aren't exactly angels either. When I opened my AMEX merchant account, they put on a restriction that if ANY buyer requested a credit, AMEX would agree to the credit with no questions asked, and with no opportunity for me to challenge the credit. That was way more onerous than anything Paypal does. That restriction has since been removed after establishing a long period of having no disputes, but I will not forget that AMEX did this to me.

[Thebes]

Well, I've an update.

PayPal just sent me an email to APOLOGIZE. I checked the calender and April 1 is still a ways off, so imagine my surprise. Apparently their scripts accidentally put a 21 day hold on my payment and I am not subject to that policy... or else there was so much uproar from new people abusively subjected to it that they backed off and tried to appease.

I see people who say "don't hate on ebay and paypal". I remember eBay when it was auction-web, fees were low services few but it worked out. Now you MUST use PayPal or a private merchant account, you can't accept other forms of payment in most cases. THAT is why I now hate them, well, that and their constant site "improvements" which might make the average user buy more stuff but do nothing to help me use the site... in particular they often move features that I spend time looking for a year later because I only need them every so often. Also, they have the idiotic auction cancellations (did you know you can't put "like new" in an auction title, but it doesn't matter unless a bigger seller complains then you are supposedly spamming the search term "new" and you get slapped)

PayPal / eBay are just another example of corporate greed ruining a once great business.

[Mike1234]

^^ Right on!! I don't use feeBay or Pay-me-Pal. In fact, I have no credit cards either. I hate all CC companies and those that revolve thier business around them.

[Greg Miller]

Say, aren't you the one next to the woolly mammoth at the Museum of Natural history? ;)

[Michael Jones]

I have never had the experience Brian related. Money in, money out. Of course, it's not free either selling or being paid...

Mike

[Brian Ellis]

I have never had the experience Brian related. Money in, money out. Of course, it's not free either selling or being paid...

Mike

Hi Mike - I had never had this experience before either. It's a relatively new policy I believe, about a year old. If you haven't sold anything recently as I hadn't then you wouldn't have run into it. Or if you have 100 or more total ebay transactions (or maybe it's just sales, I'm not sure) then you won't run into it. There's some other exceptions as well. I had 83 ebay transactions (with 100% positive feedback) so I got hit with it.

I read somewhere that ebay/paypal is trying to get rid of the occasional customers like me who sell used equipment and become more like Amazon in selling mostly new stuff for businesses. If that's what they're trying to do they've certainly succeeded with me. And of course it's quite a nice scam for them, holding millions of dollars of other people's money that they get to invest for three weeks at no cost to them.

[Robert Fisher]

Mike, do you still maintain your stash of firearms to guard against the Feds encroaching on your “rights”?


^^ Right on!! I don't use feeBay or Pay-me-Pal. In fact, I have no credit cards either. I hate all CC companies and those that revolve thier business around them.