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Dvenosa
15-Jan-2010, 06:15
Hi,

Im looking for a light weight(kind of) inexpensive 4x5 monorail in UK. I stumbled upon this kinky Norma(hahaha) http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SINAR-NORMA-5-x-4-Large-Format-Camera_W0QQitemZ230421326669QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Photography_Film_Cameras_ET?hash=item35a62e6b4d#ht_500wt_1182

The seller told me that the missing knob will not affect usability, what do you think?

uhner
15-Jan-2010, 06:26
The missing screw will probably not effect the short-term usability of the camera, at least when using lightweight lenses. However, the screw is there for a reason and I recommend that you get a replacement if you decide to buy the camera.

Peter K
15-Jan-2010, 06:51
The missing screw is replecable with another screw with the right thread and lenght. But the coverd bellows can be a problem, specially if you want to use short-focal lenses.

Steven Tribe
15-Jan-2010, 06:56
I have just checked the screw. It is a brass M5 thread, just 7mm long. The end is ground slightly concave in one dimension.

The extra cover is probably there for a reason. Things like extra rails are not an expensive item. But lightweight!?

Remember to check there is full insurance cover available for Brazil for postage that is more (much more) than 2 kilos. This problem kills may large format sales.

Vlad Soare
15-Jan-2010, 06:59
If that's what I think it is, namely one of the front rise/fall locking knobs, then getting a replacement would be tops on my to-do list.
However, you may be fine as long as the corresponding knob on the opposite side is strong enough (not too worn out) and you use lightweight lenses.

Dvenosa
15-Jan-2010, 07:01
the coverd bellows can be a problem, specially if you want to use short-focal lenses.

The shorter lens I would use would be a 90mm, do you think it will be a problem?

Dvenosa
15-Jan-2010, 07:03
I have just checked the screw. It is a brass M5 thread, just 7mm long. The end is ground slightly concave in one dimension.


THANKS!





Remember to check there is full insurance cover available for Brazil for postage that is more (much more) than 2 kilos. This problem kills may large format sales.

It will be shipped to UK, Im gonna be there next month.

Dvenosa
15-Jan-2010, 07:06
What would you prefer?

The Norma -
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SINAR-NORMA-5-...#ht_500wt_1182



Or this Arca Swiss?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Arca-Swiss-5x4-Monorail-Camera_W0QQitemZ300385228157QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Photography_Film_Cameras_ET?hash=item45f05ad57d

uhner
15-Jan-2010, 07:18
A normal bellows, without an extra layer of leopard skin fabric, is ill suited for 90 mm lenses. That said, there are plenty of Sinar bag bellows around.

Frank Petronio
15-Jan-2010, 07:21
Isn't Leopard a protected species whose hide can not be exported?

Steven Tribe
15-Jan-2010, 07:47
I can only give my insight into the Norma - rather than make a comparison. Certainly the Arca has a lower price in the markets I have seen and "add ons" for the Norma like format additions (5x7 and 8x10) are more available.

I can see that this seller has already sold a good deal of equipment that went with this set, including extension rails and the bag bellows - so you can see how reasonable they are! There are some signs of corrosion on the cast aluminium frames (white dusty pitted patches) but these don't effect the strength. Perhaps you ask him to check all movements and that everything can be locked down without using pliers etc. It looks like all the levels are intact.

Dvenosa
15-Jan-2010, 10:50
Im leaning towards this Norma, I think I can easily replace this screw with a generic one, and bag bellows are widely available on ebay. Any thoughts? Does it accept normal sinar lens plate? Is it better than a Sinar F?

Steven Tribe
15-Jan-2010, 14:03
Same lens board - different paint. You need the silver rails with red ends. The copal/sinar auto shutter fits (all versions). There are a long lasting workhorse! I have an 8x10 Norma and it has been a delight - but I can't compare with the newer models as I have zero experience of them. There must be lot on this site on the Norma.

rdenney
15-Jan-2010, 16:10
Im leaning towards this Norma, I think I can easily replace this screw with a generic one, and bag bellows are widely available on ebay. Any thoughts? Does it accept normal sinar lens plate? Is it better than a Sinar F?

The Norma is better-made than the F, but both are excellent. The differences are:

1. The Norma uses a U-frame and has axis tilts. The F uses base tilts.

2. The Norma is not a yaw-free design, the F is.

3. The Norma has fine focus on both ends, the F only on the rear. (The F2 has fine focus on the front, too.)

4. The Norma is all machined and beautifully finished metal, while the F has plastic stuff. The only real issue of durability on the F is the clip that holds the front standard onto the rail, which is plastic and subject to breakage if one tightens the screw too aggressively. This was corrected on the F2, which has a rail mount similar to the F-series rear standards. The Norma is probably a bit heavier.

All Sinar cameras use the same bellows, lens boards, backs, and (with the sole exception of the Alpina) the same monorail and rail extensions. The colors changed over the years (from olive to silver to black, depending on the part) but not the fit.

Rick "who has a Normal multipurpose standard that works fine on his F/F2 hybrid" Denney

Jerry Bodine
15-Jan-2010, 17:45
[QUOTE=rdenney;548659] The Norma uses a U-frame and has axis tilts.

My Norma has base tilts. I've never seen one with axis tilts.

Don Dudenbostel
15-Jan-2010, 18:15
I wouldn't call the Norma a light weight camera but they're great cameras. I've used my 4x5 and 5x7 for forty years under heavy commercial use and never had the first problem and it's just as tight as when I bought them new. For certain you would want to add a screw and replace the bellows with one that's not covered. Also for a 90mm you will need a bag bellows. I believe any of the current bellows will fit the older cameras and frequently bag and standard bellows can be found fairly cheap. I've recently found bag bellows for fifty dollars and think you should be able to find a square or tapered standard bellows for under a hundred. Rails aren't that expensive either. I purchased my cameras in either 1969 or 1970. I think 70 was the last year of production but it could have been 1971. The camera in the picture shows lever locks on the focus knobs and my model had small screws that put a slight drag on the knobs rather than having to lock the focus. I don't know when Sinar got away from the levers but the camera is probably around forty five years old or more. If treated with care these cameras will last another forty five or more years but if the lever locks are over tightened they can be a problem.

I't correct all Norma cameras have only base tilts and it uses the same board all other Sinar's use.

I love my Normas and don't think I would trade even for a P2. The year I purchased my cameras the Sinar rep told me they produced 750 cameras that year total for all formats and the factory consisted of 7 men making the cameras. They are beautifully made cameras. FYI I found the invoice for my basic 4x5 and it cost $365 new. That sounds cheap but that was more than I payed for a mint M2 Leica ($250) or ($333) for a new 35 1.4 Summilux or ($250) for my mint 21 f3.4 Super Angulon with finder back in 1968. The Sinar was big money then. The other systemI was considering was the Linhof Bi system which cost roughly $700 at the time.

rdenney
15-Jan-2010, 19:23
[QUOTE=rdenney;548659] The Norma uses a U-frame and has axis tilts.

My Norma has base tilts. I've never seen one with axis tilts.

Argh! You're right. I was visualizing a Linhof Kardan Color.

Rick "noting that the Norma multipurpose standard has axis tilt, for whatever that's worth" Denney

Steven Tribe
16-Jan-2010, 02:43
You now have a problem as experience shows that other people's buying/bidding interest gets sharpened through this kind of discussion. Perhaps you should start looking for alternative Sinars as a fall back if this one takes off? Or a wanted in the buy/sell section?

Dvenosa
16-Jan-2010, 05:03
You now have a problem as experience shows that other people's buying/bidding interest gets sharpened through this kind of discussion. Perhaps you should start looking for alternative Sinars as a fall back if this one takes off? Or a wanted in the buy/sell section?

I found another one... ;)

Frank Petronio
16-Jan-2010, 06:22
Likewise, shortly before you want to sell something, create a post hawking its wonderful characteristics and great value.

Steven Tribe
17-Jan-2010, 07:42
No bids by anyone? Did you have a change of heart or couldn't you get him to open up for non-uk bids with delivery in the UK? There are a couple of promising 9X12/4x5 normas in Germany with cheap postage to the UK.

Dvenosa
17-Jan-2010, 11:13
Steven,

I found other options(in a real shop). My current doubt is between a Sinar P and a F2. What do you think? Is the 4x5 Sinar P really HEAVY? Im thinking about opening a new thread...

Struan Gray
17-Jan-2010, 11:24
FWIW, Ffordes have a lot of Sinar stuff at good prices right now, including some F2's, cheap rails and bag bellows. They are reliable and reputable - not perfect, but someone I would buy from more than happily.

Ffordes.co.uk

At those prices I would much prefer an F2 from them over an odd-looking eBay Norma.

CarstenW
17-Jan-2010, 11:29
I can heartily back the Ffordes tip. I bought a slew of things from them recently, and got very good (and humorous) service, and articles exactly as described.

Steven Tribe
17-Jan-2010, 14:40
I have just received a full package from ffordes, too. Well organised, super service and packing. Prices are very uneven (cheap/competitive/not competitive) though.

Dvenosa
18-Jan-2010, 19:49
I bought a Sinar F2 from FFordes!

Thank you all for your kindness!