BTZS Tubes?

[healyzh]

I'm not clear on one thing about the BTZS Tubes. I've read that they can be used for daylight processing once you have the film loaded, but based on the video's on YouTube that doesn't appear to be the case.

How do you use the BTZS Tubes for daylight processing?

Thanks,
Zane

[jeroldharter]

Each tube comes with 2 lids. You load the film into the tube in the dark, put the cap on the tube, and then turn the lights on. When you have assembled the tubes for processing you fill the extra lids with developer, turn the lights out, unscrew the empty lid, then screw on the developer lid. The tube will stand upright. Once the developer lids are loaded, turn on the lights, grab all the tubes (up to 6 at a time), start the timer, shake vigorously for 10 seconds, and then put the tubes in the water bath and start rolling. The lights are on during processing.

When the processing time is nearing completion, I switch to a safelight. You could leave the room lights on, but if you are clumsy and slow you might fog the film. Anyway, you unscrew the cap with developer, plunge the tube into a stop bath tray, give it a few rolls, and go back to finishing the remaining 5 developer tubes. When all the tubes are in the stop, then move them to the fixing tray and roll the tubes for the required time. I turn the room lights on after about 30 sec in the fixer so that I am sure to have immersed them completely.

A bit wordy but you get the idea. Once you load the developer, you could do the whole process with the lights on, but I don't want to chance fogging film if I fumble the tube and don't place in in the stop just so. I have never fogged a sheet of film with the safelight on and have never even tried with the room lights on.

[Eric Woodbury]

You can make a similar workable system, albeit not daylight, from ABS black pipe used in the US for drain-waste-vent.

[h2oman]

I'm doing pretty much what Jerold does. Occasionally I fill the caps with developer in the light, turn off the lights and put the film in the tubes and put them onto the lids with the developer directly. Usually I just go with the two-lid method, as it seems to require less concentration.

One caution I would offer is to make sure the lids are screwed on tight. I have had them come off a couple times (out of 100-150 negs).

[healyzh]

My problem is that at this time I don't have a true dark room. I have a closet that I can load the film in. I then do the developing in our laundry area. As such I need a solution that can be done in the light, and the tubes appear to need darkness at a couple steps (which is how I took the video's). It sounds like something like the HP Combi-Plan or a Jobo tank is a better bet for me at this time, even though I prefer the sound of the tubes.

[J.Medlock]

I also use BTZS tubes and follow Jerold's approach -- the tubes work well for me. I originally tried developing 4x5 film in 8x10 trays and scratched the heck out of them.

[Gem Singer]

Zane,

Get the Combi-Plan tank outfit.

No matter which system you use, you will need to insert the film in total darkness.

If you don't want to load film into the tank in your dark closet, you can use a Harrison changing tent.

[healyzh]

Gem,
Inserting the film in total darkness isn't an issue. Though I am seriously considering a changing tent. I loaded a lot of film into holders prior to a trip last August, it quickly became uncomfortably hot in the closet.

The Combi-Plan seems to be the way to go.

Thanks,
Zane

[Brian Ellis]

Each tube comes with 2 lids. You load the film into the tube in the dark, put the cap on the tube, and then turn the lights on. When you have assembled the tubes for processing you fill the extra lids with developer, turn the lights out, unscrew the empty lid, then screw on the developer lid. The tube will stand upright. Once the developer lids are loaded, turn on the lights, grab all the tubes (up to 6 at a time), start the timer, shake vigorously for 10 seconds, and then put the tubes in the water bath and start rolling. The lights are on during processing.

When the processing time is nearing completion, I switch to a safelight. You could leave the room lights on, but if you are clumsy and slow you might fog the film. Anyway, you unscrew the cap with developer, plunge the tube into a stop bath tray, give it a few rolls, and go back to finishing the remaining 5 developer tubes. When all the tubes are in the stop, then move them to the fixing tray and roll the tubes for the required time. I turn the room lights on after about 30 sec in the fixer so that I am sure to have immersed them completely.

A bit wordy but you get the idea. Once you load the developer, you could do the whole process with the lights on, but I don't want to chance fogging film if I fumble the tube and don't place in in the stop just so. I have never fogged a sheet of film with the safelight on and have never even tried with the room lights on.

Actually you don't need the extra caps. I had some and used them for a few years but one day it dawned on me that I could just put developer in the cap, load the film in the tube, and screw the tube into the cap that was already filled with developer, saving the extra steps of putting on an empty cap and taking it off.

I always turned the room lights on as soon as the caps were screwed onto the tubes and left them on after that. In processing at least a couple thousand sheets over a long period of time I never ruined a single sheet of film by doing that. It really isn't necessary to use a safe light, and certainly isn't necessary to stand in the dark until the film has been in the fix for a while as some people seem to do, but if it makes you feel better you certainly can do that.

[jeroldharter]

Good points and that would suit the OP's needs. He could load the tubes in the closet and stand them in the molded tray and then process in the laundry room with the lights on.

I have never used a Combiplan but don't they usually leak? A Jobo on a roller would work well to if you want to process all of the negs for the same development time.

[healyzh]

Something I'm quite honestly not clear on is which steps can be done in daylight. I always do the develop, stop bath, and fixing in darkness (in a daylight tank). I had thought that at least the first two have to be done in total darkness, and wasn't sure about the last, but the posts here seem to indicate otherwise.

[Wallace_Billingham]

are you shooting 4x5, 5x7 or something bigger? If you are shooting 4x5 or 5x7 you can use a regular Patterson style daylight tank like you would use for roll film and do the "taco method".

Then the only step you would have to do in the dark is to load the film. There is a lot of information about it online. Or check out this thread

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=30099

[David Beal]

I second Wallace's recommendation on the taco method. But if you're only doing a couple of sheets at a time, the BTZS tubes are fine.

You can make home-made tubes from ABS black plastic which work in daylight. My set (for 4x5) is made from 1.5 inch stock and has 3 parts: Part 1 is about 6 inches long, is permanently capped at one end and has an ABS to female 1.5 inch pipe thread adapter at the other. This part also contains a piece of plastic window screen, about 6 inches x 4 3/4 inches. This permits the non-emulsion side of the film to be exposed to chemicals and also permits easy removal of the film from the tube.

Part 2 is a 1.5 inch pipe thread cap (has a pipe thread on one side and a little square cube on the other).

Part 3 is about 3 inches long, is permanently capped on one end and has an ABS to male 1.5 inch pipe thread adapter at the other.

Load (darkness) the film in Part 1 and hand tighten Part 2 into it. I use Teflon(R) thread tape for a tight seal. I fill Part 3 with about 100 cc of developer and set it aside. In darkness, hold Part 1 with the pipe thread cap (Part 2) pointing down. Unscrew Part 2 and screw on Part 3 (also coated with thread tape). Keep the assembly pointed down and turn on the lights. Start your timer, give the assembly a few good shakes, and transfer to a water bath for rolling, using a "to and fro" motion so that the emulsion is constantly wet. My experience is that developing time needs to be decreased by 10-15% with constant motion. A few seconds before developing time expires, turn on a dim safelite, pull the assembly out of the water bath & point Part 3 down, unscrew Part 3 & set it aside, and plunge Part 1 into a tray of stop. After some more rolling -- whatever you think adequate for the stop to function -- remove Part 1 from the stop tray & transfer to a tray of fixer. More rolling for whatever time you desire. Wash with/without hypo clear as you wish. Since I started using the window screen in my Part 1 tubes I haven't needed to use hypo clear.

Best wishes. As you've seen from the posts, there are a lot of smart (I'm not counting myself) and helpful people in this forum.

/s/ David

[healyzh]

are you shooting 4x5, 5x7 or something bigger? If you are shooting 4x5 or 5x7 you can use a regular Patterson style daylight tank like you would use for roll film and do the "taco method".

I'm shooting 4x5. Actually I should look seriously into the "taco method" and the article you referenced. At this time I don't shoot much 4x5, in fact I'm still on my first box of 25 sheets I bought last June when I got the camera, though I just bought a second box. Having said that, once I get my developing issues resolved, and have a good way to get them scanned, I want to start shooting regularly with the camera. Right now it's a real pain and expensive to get a lab to do the work for me.

[healyzh]

Best wishes. As you've seen from the posts, there are a lot of smart (I'm not counting myself) and helpful people in this forum.

I'm very impressed by what I've seen here so far. Simply put this forum is amazing, and amazingly active.

[Vlad Soare]

Tubes are probably a great way of developing different sheets for different times, but this seems to me to be their only advantage. When I started shooting 4x5" I had, of course, to find a developing method that suited me. I took the BTZS tubes into account, but quickly dismissed them because I found that for me their drawbacks exceeded the advantages.

First, what if you want to develop six sheets for the same amount of time? When the time is up you unscrew the first cap, place the first tube into the stop bath, roll it quickly for a few seconds, then unscrew the second cap, place the second tube into the stop bath, roll it quickly for a few seconds, and so on. It seems to me that by the time you get to the last tube it has already spent at least an extra minute in the developer, if not more.

Second, the film must be washed separately, either in a tank or in a tray. Tubes are not good for washing. So you need either to get a dip&dunk tank and a set of hangers (which cost extra, and keep in mind that BTZS tubes themselves are kind of expensive to start with!), or to wash the sheets in a tray and run the risk of scratching them.

I'm sure they work fine, though. Many people use them and are happy with them.

[J.Medlock]

Good point that BTZS tubes are really good for developing for different times - I do this too.

But say I'm developing 6 sheets for the same amount of time: instead of starting development for all 6 tubes at the same moment in time, I instead start with Tube #1 (shake it and start rolling it), and then 30 seconds later I'll start Tube #2, etc...

When the time for Tube #1 is up, I pull it, open the cap, and put the tube into the stop bath with a few rolls to stop development. Then, "30 seconds later" I'll pull Tube #2, repeat, etc...

Of course, I have to stop rolling the remaining tubes (for maybe 5 seconds) while I'm moving a tube into the stop bath -- but once I get the finished tube into the stop bath and roll it a few times, I quickly return to rolling the remaining tubes, and then move each one to the stop bath at 30-second intervals.

This works for me.... :)

[dfoo]

The BTZS site has a video which shows how to develop with BTZS tubes... very educational!

[Brian Ellis]

Tubes are probably a great way of developing different sheets for different times, but this seems to me to be their only advantage. When I started shooting 4x5" I had, of course, to find a developing method that suited me. I took the BTZS tubes into account, but quickly dismissed them because I found that for me their drawbacks exceeded the advantages.

First, what if you want to develop six sheets for the same amount of time? When the time is up you unscrew the first cap, place the first tube into the stop bath, roll it quickly for a few seconds, then unscrew the second cap, place the second tube into the stop bath, roll it quickly for a few seconds, and so on. It seems to me that by the time you get to the last tube it has already spent at least an extra minute in the developer, if not more.

Second, the film must be washed separately, either in a tank or in a tray. Tubes are not good for washing. So you need either to get a dip&dunk tank and a set of hangers (which cost extra, and keep in mind that BTZS tubes themselves are kind of expensive to start with!), or to wash the sheets in a tray and run the risk of scratching them.

I'm sure they work fine, though. Many people use them and are happy with them.

I dealt with the minor problem of all six sheets being developed for the same time by moving quickly. You don't need to roll the tubes in the stop bath, at least I didn't using a pail of stop bath. You just dunk the tube in the bath and move on. I could do six sheets much faster than a minute - I'd guess about 20 seconds or less for all six. I'd start with the first one a few seconds before the exact time, then do the second for the exact time, the third for about 4 seconds past the exact time, etc. This is black and white film, those kinds of deviations from perfection when the film is being developed for 6 to 10 minutes or so aren't going to matter to anything. Plus I usually had a plus or minus development in there somewhere.

I'm not sure what you mean by the film must be washed "separately." The sheets are going to have to be removed from the tubes eventually so I'm not sure what the problem is with removing them before they're washed. I used a Salt-Hill film washer but that had nothing to do with using tubes, I'd wash film the same way regardless of how I developed it. But maybe I'm missing something.

I thought the tubes had the following advantages:

1. Everything done in room light once the film is loaded in the tubes;
2. Very little chemical usage - I used D76 1-1 so developing six sheets used six ounces of developer.
3. No risk of scratches
4. Takes up very little space (compared to a Jobo system)
5. Ability to do plus, minus, and normal development in the same run;
6. Inexpensive (compared to a Jobo system, expensive compared to trays)

The only downside I found was when there were a whole lot of sheets to be developed at once. I did six sheets at a time because that's how the BTZS kit (tubes, caps, water jacket/tube holder) I owned was sold. It probably would be possible to do more but when you're doing only six sheets at a time (compared to 10 with a Jobo I think) processing say 50 or 100 sheets can take a while.

[Vlad Soare]

But say I'm developing 6 sheets for the same amount of time: instead of starting development for all 6 tubes at the same moment in time, I instead start with Tube #1 (shake it and start rolling it), and then 30 seconds later I'll start Tube #2, etc...
That sounds like a good idea. I hadn't thought of that. :o


I'm not sure what you mean by the film must be washed "separately." The sheets are going to have to be removed from the tubes eventually so I'm not sure what the problem is with removing them before they're washed. I used a Salt-Hill film washer but that had nothing to do with using tubes, I'd wash film the same way regardless of how I developed it. But maybe I'm missing something.
I don't know how to explain this. I wanted a system that would take care of everything, from developing to washing, not two separate systems. I didn't want to use BTZS tubes and dip&dunk tanks/hangers, especially as I was on a tight budget. Investing in a separate washing solution didn't look like a good idea to me at the time, considering that BTZS tubes were pretty expensive themselves. Washing the film in a tray would be out of the question, because I don't trust myself not to scratch at least one sheet.
OK, I'm not saying it's a big problem. It's just that I personally found it to be annoying (mostly as a matter of principle) since I knew of other daylight developing methods - CombiPlan, Jobo, Yankee, Nikkor - that didn't require anything extra to wash the film.

You had a dedicated film washer and would have used it anyway, regardless of the developing method. But I have no film washer. I'm used to washing the film in the tank, using the Ilford method. Maybe that's why I don't like the idea of investing in a separate washing solution. :)


4. Takes up very little space (compared to a Jobo system)
Maybe, compared to a Jobo processor.
But compared to a single 25xx tank, which you roll by hand in a tempered water tray just like you do with the tubes, I doubt that there's any difference in space.


6. Inexpensive (compared to a Jobo system, expensive compared to trays)
Yes, it's a little cheaper than a Jobo system, but not by much.
B&H have 2521/2523 tanks in stock for $100, and 2509n reels for $65.
A set a 4x5" BTZS tubes from The View Camera Store is $150.
It's a difference, indeed, but not a great one. Besides, if you add a washing tank and six 4x5" hangers, I think the Jobo becomes cheaper than the tubes. :)

Anyway, I'm not trying to bash BTZS tubes, nor to start a debate about which daylight developing method is best. I'm sure the tubes are fine, and I think they're great for developing different sheets for different times. That's one thing my Jobo can't handle. :)

[Brian Ellis]

That sounds like a good idea. I hadn't thought of that. :o


I don't know how to explain this. I wanted a system that would take care of everything, from developing to washing, not two separate systems. I didn't want to use BTZS tubes and dip&dunk tanks/hangers, especially as I was on a tight budget. Investing in a separate washing solution didn't look like a good idea to me at the time, considering that BTZS tubes were pretty expensive themselves. Washing the film in a tray would be out of the question, because I don't trust myself not to scratch at least one sheet.
OK, I'm not saying it's a big problem. It's just that I personally found it to be annoying (mostly as a matter of principle) since I knew of other daylight developing methods - CombiPlan, Jobo, Yankee, Nikkor - that didn't require anything extra to wash the film.

You had a dedicated film washer and would have used it anyway, regardless of the developing method. But I have no film washer. I'm used to washing the film in the tank, using the Ilford method. Maybe that's why I don't like the idea of investing in a separate washing solution. :)


Maybe, compared to a Jobo processor.
But compared to a single 25xx tank, which you roll by hand in a tempered water tray just like you do with the tubes, I doubt that there's any difference in space.


Yes, it's a little cheaper than a Jobo system, but not by much.
B&H have 2521/2523 tanks in stock for $100, and 2509n reels for $65.
A set a 4x5" BTZS tubes from The View Camera Store is $150.
It's a difference, indeed, but not a great one. Besides, if you add a washing tank and six 4x5" hangers, I think the Jobo becomes cheaper than the tubes. :)

Anyway, I'm not trying to bash BTZS tubes, nor to start a debate about which daylight developing method is best. I'm sure the tubes are fine, and I think they're great for developing different sheets for different times. That's one thing my Jobo can't handle. :)

I didn't think you were bashing the tubes, this is just a discussion not an argument. With respect to cost, when I said the BTZS tubes were inexpensive compared to a Jobo system, I was thinking of the whole system, i.e. the motorized version, not just the tanks alone. My impression is that even used they run in the $500 and up range though maybe not these days. I think I understand what you're saying about washing and a single system. Maybe tanks are better for your purposes, I've never used a tank myself, I've always used the BTZS tubes or trays (for 8x10 only), and a Jobo in some workshops but never owned one.

[dfoo]

... or you can make them yourself with a 1.5" ABS pipe, some end caps and some couplers for much less :)

[Andrew O'Neill]

I use BTZS tubes for both 4x5 and 8x10. Once the film has been developed in the tube, it is okay to have a dim light (actually I use my OC safelight which is quite bright) on for the stop and fix. The film becomes somewhat desensitized to low levels of light for a period of time.
After development, the tube with film is placed in a tray containing the stop bath. Then the film is pulled out of the tubes and slipped into the fix. I've been doing it this way for 12 years with no problem with all sorts of different films.
I should also add that I don't care for the black lighter BTZS tubes compared to the older heavier gray ones. The black ones don't spin as well and they sit on top of the water. A real pain when you are spinning more than one. If you go with BTZS tubes, try to get the older gray ones perhaps on ebay.
I also have a tube that I made for 8x10. The trick is to make it so that the tube sits horizontally in the water bath.