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John NYC
29-Dec-2009, 17:34
Here is a PDF export of a spreadsheet I've started compiling as I try to decide which 8x10 to buy. I know it is missing many models, but these are the ones I'm interested in so far:

Ebony RW810
Canham 8x10 Standard
Wehman Lightweight
Shen Hao FC810-A
Tachihara (Dbl Ext.)

Thought someone else might find it useful. I'd consider putting it together for all currently available 8x10s if it seems like there would be a demand. Perhaps others though don't take this approach. I certainly didn't with my 4x5 and I have never looked back on my decision.

Michael Graves
30-Dec-2009, 05:34
Toyo 810M is a solid metal field. They also make an 810G if you wish to include mono-rails in your discussion.

Gary L. Quay
30-Dec-2009, 05:45
I think it would be a good resource, especially since I'm in the market for an 8x10 field camera.

--Gary

Mike1234
30-Dec-2009, 08:24
Don't forget the Chamonix. :)

William McEwen
30-Dec-2009, 09:25
Very cool. Only suggestion I would make is the addition of lines to separate rows and columns to make it more user-friendly. And -- maybe swap the row info with the column info -- so the cameras are listed vertically along the left and the attributes go across the page horizontally.

Len Middleton
30-Dec-2009, 18:13
You might also include used / no longer built 8x10 cameras e.g. Deardorff, Wisner, Calumet C1, etc.

Given one of the current threads, you did not include the Ritter?

Jim Graves
30-Dec-2009, 22:24
Another easy and useful inclusion is lens board dimensions. Agree with Mr. McEwen's suggestion to switch rows and columns.

John NYC
30-Dec-2009, 23:21
Latest version attached with most of the input given here included. I am not including cameras that cost new more that $5K since that is totally out of my league. (What I would really like to do is just buy an Ebony SV810UE and be done with it!)

I'd appreciate it if anyone could help me find sources for the missing or questioned data marked with a "?".

Hope this is helpful to someone other than me!

John

Mike1234
31-Dec-2009, 00:04
John... this is very cool. Are you going to add any more cameras?

John NYC
31-Dec-2009, 00:50
John... this is very cool. Are you going to add any more cameras?

The only currently available one I know of that meets my arbitrary <$5K criteria and is a purpose built field camera is the Wista, which I have heard (but may be wrong) is very similar to the Tachi, so I didn't include it, but I could.

What other cameras (available new) were you thinking of? I am loathe to start doing older cameras because there were many models of each of them and I don't know where I'd be able to get the data on them. Also, for a person looking to buy within a set timeframe, waiting for that like-new Deardorff to pop up is just unrealistic. I think if one is waiting for that, you already kinda have your mind made up and aren't comparing individual specs?

Mike1234
31-Dec-2009, 00:59
Well, for a poor guy like me I'm forced to buy used. Of course, assembling a comprehensive list of discontinued 8x10's would be quite a daunting task. I'm just thankful for the list you've done. Once I have my finances solidly back on track so I can buy one your list has made my decision easy. Thanks again!!

Armin Seeholzer
31-Dec-2009, 03:10
You should also take this in your checkout list:
http://www.argentumcamera.com/eng/pages/other/home.htm

Cheers Armin

John Powers
31-Dec-2009, 04:40
Very nicely done. When this is complete I think this would be a helpful addition to others on the http://www.largeformatphotography.info/. Thank you for putting it together.
John

neil poulsen
31-Dec-2009, 06:21
Another important consideration for me are the available accessories. For example, wide angle bellows, reduction backs, etc. I think that this could also be good to capture on your information sheet.

Mike1234
31-Dec-2009, 07:41
Another important consideration for me are the available accessories. For example, wide angle bellows, reduction backs, etc. I think that this could also be good to capture on your information sheet.

Yeah... very good point.

John NYC
31-Dec-2009, 08:11
Another important consideration for me are the available accessories. For example, wide angle bellows, reduction backs, etc. I think that this could also be good to capture on your information sheet.

I agree the chart could expanded to include many other comparison facets (lens board type was already mentioned earlier, for example, though I have opted to include only cameras that have full size lens boards options at the moment because of my own personal reasons for building the chart). At some point I might do that after I see what else is suggested. The difficulty here is that when you start getting into optional configurations, the sheet is going to grow enormously.

Mike1234
31-Dec-2009, 08:17
Well, John, if you take on this feat we all applaud and than you.

John NYC
2-Jan-2010, 10:00
Just a side note... after doing this exercise, I believe I am going to go with the Tachihara. Seems to be the best deal for dipping my toe into 8x10.

Mike1234
2-Jan-2010, 10:10
For me it's the Canham because I want the rear shift for stitching.

John NYC
2-Jan-2010, 11:18
For me it's the Canham because I want the rear shift for stitching.

Hmmmm... didn't consider that! Haven't bought yet. Was going to wait until Monday. Now maybe back to the drawing board.

Brian Ellis
2-Jan-2010, 11:30
Very similar information is available in Chapter 13 of the Leslie Stroebel View Camera Techniques book although it won't have the newest cameras such as the Chamonix. OTOH, it includes some older cameras that you don't have and that are still available used. I used the Stroebel information extensively in deciding which LF camera to buy the first time around.

John NYC
2-Jan-2010, 18:31
Latest version attached with folded dimensions of Chamonix after receiving a PM from Hugo with that info. Thanks Hugo!

(And I changed the name of that column to "collapsed" since some cameras listed are not folders).

Still need clarification on the Ritter and Wehman mainly, with one question on the Tachihara that I could not glean from the company website. I tried to dig for info on the Wista, but there is nothing that I could find that I could use to fill out this chart accurately.

Any more cameras in with criteria (field camera, <$5,000 and currently available new, can use standard lens board) that I could include?

John NYC
2-Jan-2010, 18:34
Very similar information is available in Chapter 13 of the Leslie Stroebel View Camera Techniques book although it won't have the newest cameras such as the Chamonix. OTOH, it includes some older cameras that you don't have and that are still available used. I used the Stroebel information extensively in deciding which LF camera to buy the first time around.

Cool. Might be nice to get a copy of that book to start on a more complete version that includes used cameras if I get the gumption.

Ben Syverson
2-Jan-2010, 19:14
Might also consider the Gowland...

John NYC
2-Jan-2010, 21:18
Might also consider the Gowland...

Just googled it. Very interesting. 5lb monorail! And cheaper than the Tachi. Do you know where I can get the specs on the movements? Doesn't seem to be on his website.

tenderobject
2-Jan-2010, 22:03
@john nyc

thanks for making this list up! whats the tachihara website? :)

@brian ellis what book of stoebel should we get? he/she has plentyful! :)

John NYC
3-Jan-2010, 00:43
@john nyc

thanks for making this list up! whats the tachihara website? :)



Quite welcome.

Here's the website... Brush up on your Japanese!

http://www.netlaputa.ne.jp/~tachi-ss/sub1.html

timparkin
3-Jan-2010, 05:14
If you go to http://docs.google.com you can make a spreadsheet and share it with people.. then multiple authors can keep it up to date

John Powers
3-Jan-2010, 07:14
[QUOTE=John NYC;543608]. I tried to dig for info on the Wista, but there is nothing that I could find that I could use to fill out this chart accurately.QUOTE]

Our own Bob Salomon imports the Wista through HP Marketing. Look at the specifications section of this B&H Photo page.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/63362-REG/Wista_218105_810DX_Cherry_8x10_Double.html#specifications

John

John Bowen
3-Jan-2010, 08:36
John,

Richard Ritter's "standard" bellows extension is 32".

As an owner of a Ritter, I can attest that many of the specifications are limited only by your imagination/pocketbook. If you need a longer bellows extension, Richard can handle it. If you need 18" of front rise, just let Richard know. If you want a 7x11, 5x8, or 4x10 supplemental back, Richard can fabricate one for you.

I also considered the fact that Richard is around 50 years old. To me, it was an important consideration that the guy building my camera would also be around in 15 years to service it. Did we learn nothing from Ron Wisner?

Another consideration for me was the feeling that I was supporting a craftsman who supports us, the LF community. Were Richard Ritter to close up shop we would ALL suffer.

Thanks for putting this together, John. I'm sure it will help others with their LF decisions for years to come.

John NYC
3-Jan-2010, 08:36
[QUOTE=John NYC;543608]. I tried to dig for info on the Wista, but there is nothing that I could find that I could use to fill out this chart accurately.QUOTE]

Our own Bob Salomon imports the Wista through HP Marketing. Look at the specifications section of this B&H Photo page.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/63362-REG/Wista_218105_810DX_Cherry_8x10_Double.html#specifications

John

Yes, I looked there, but I'm not sure how to interpret the combined(?) numbers for rise and fall.

John NYC
3-Jan-2010, 08:51
If you go to http://docs.google.com you can make a spreadsheet and share it with people.. then multiple authors can keep it up to date

That's a good idea. I was planning on taking another's suggestion and submitting it for the main page like so... http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/

But if one of the LFF moderators sets up a google account, perhaps all the docs should be converted and put there. I know those lens prices and center filter prices could use some updating!

John NYC
3-Jan-2010, 09:09
Now including the Walker Titan XL and some data for the Wista.

Mike1234
3-Jan-2010, 09:12
I can't remember... is the Toho 8x10 discontinued?

Ben Syverson
3-Jan-2010, 09:33
Just googled it. Very interesting. 5lb monorail! And cheaper than the Tachi. Do you know where I can get the specs on the movements? Doesn't seem to be on his website.
The easiest thing to do is call Peter... The 5 lb "lite" version doesn't have rear movements, but I believe the slightly heavier versions do. I think it will also depend on what he has in stock, as he's slowly selling everything off. He's 93 after all! :)

Mike1234
3-Jan-2010, 10:04
I've been curious about the Gowland 8x10 (complete movement model) as well. But no specs anywhere aon the net that I can find.

Oren Grad
3-Jan-2010, 10:26
I've been curious about the Gowland 8x10 (complete movement model) as well. But no specs anywhere aon the net that I can find.

I don't think Peter has ever published formal specifications. His 8x10's have pretty much all been custom jobs, and there's lots of variation in the details. If my own experience is any indication, he's built plenty of oddball cameras over the years, cobbling together parts on hand to meet a customer's requirements.

Oren Grad
3-Jan-2010, 10:32
Now including the Walker Titan XL and some data for the Wista.

Still missing the triple-extension and superwide variants of the Tachihara.

John NYC
3-Jan-2010, 10:33
The easiest thing to do is call Peter... The 5 lb "lite" version doesn't have rear movements, but I believe the slightly heavier versions do. I think it will also depend on what he has in stock, as he's slowly selling everything off. He's 93 after all! :)

I went ahead and sent him an email explaining the little project and asked if he would provide the data for us.

John NYC
3-Jan-2010, 10:34
Still missing the triple-extension and superwide variants of the Tachihara.

Yes, it is on the Tachihara website, but is it still available? I could not find a retailer here in the US.

Oren Grad
3-Jan-2010, 10:38
Yes, it is on the Tachihara website, but is it still available? I could not find a retailer here in the US.

Badger Graphic lists the triple-extension model. You could ask Jeff Taugner whether he can special order the superwide as well.

John NYC
3-Jan-2010, 11:45
Badger Graphic lists the triple-extension model. You could ask Jeff Taugner whether he can special order the superwide as well.

I will add the wide to the next version of the sheet, but unfortunately, there is no data about the movements on the Tachihara website.

Will also include triple extension on next version.

I have emails into Gowland, Wehman and Ritter to fill in missing/ambiguous data for their cameras if they'd like to.

John NYC
3-Jan-2010, 11:51
[QUOTE=John NYC;543608]. I tried to dig for info on the Wista, but there is nothing that I could find that I could use to fill out this chart accurately.QUOTE]

Our own Bob Salomon imports the Wista through HP Marketing. Look at the specifications section of this B&H Photo page.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/63362-REG/Wista_218105_810DX_Cherry_8x10_Double.html#specifications

John

I'm not sure if that is correct for the Wista. Here is a page basically saying it is the same camera as the Tachihara. Also not sure why the price is so high compared to the Tachi at B&H if this is so...

http://www.vistaview360.com/cameras/wista_8x10_dx.htm

One thing that is clear to me in doing this compilation exercise, it is very hard to know if you have the right data when there are conflicting multiple sources.

Oren Grad
3-Jan-2010, 12:19
Here is a page basically saying it is the same camera as the Tachihara.

Bob Salomon recently on this point:

http://photo.net/large-format-photography-forum/00VCAe

John NYC
3-Jan-2010, 12:21
Bob Salomon recently on this point:

http://photo.net/large-format-photography-forum/00VCAe

I see. Maybe Bob can chime in an provide the specs. The ones on the BH site are spotty at best.

timparkin
3-Jan-2010, 13:43
That's a good idea. I was planning on taking another's suggestion and submitting it for the main page like so... http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/

But if one of the LFF moderators sets up a google account, perhaps all the docs should be converted and put there. I know those lens prices and center filter prices could use some updating!

I combined the lf table with information on flange focus from the ebony tables here..

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArUk_B4TzTHfdEZkVU9iRExneUdqcGFZcndzRXYyUVE&hl=en_GB

Tim

tenderobject
3-Jan-2010, 16:21
hey john! thanks again. haha its japanize! :( how did you get the pricing? from retailers?

google docs would be awesome as well! keep up the good work. i might jump on 8x10 soon so this would be very helpful!

Brian Ellis
3-Jan-2010, 16:55
Just googled it. Very interesting. 5lb monorail! And cheaper than the Tachi. Do you know where I can get the specs on the movements? Doesn't seem to be on his website.

The Stroebel book that I mentioned earlier has specs for two 8x10 Gowlands, the Pocket View and the Pocket View V/H. I can send them to you if you like.

Brian Ellis
3-Jan-2010, 16:59
@john nyc

thanks for making this list up! whats the tachihara website? :)

@brian ellis what book of stoebel should we get? he/she has plentyful! :)

View Camera Techniques

My copy is the 6th edition. There's a 7th edition that's been out for quite a while now and I assume the 6th edition is only available used. Before someone rushes out to buy the 7th edition just for these specs they should make sure the specs are still in the 7th edition. I'm sure someone here must own the 7th edition and should be able to confirm this.

John NYC
3-Jan-2010, 18:50
I combined the lf table with information on flange focus from the ebony tables here..

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArUk_B4TzTHfdEZkVU9iRExneUdqcGFZcndzRXYyUVE&hl=en_GB

Tim

Is that your personal account? If so, maybe it makes sense for the forum owners to create a Google Docs account.

I don't mind doing the initial legwork I've done, but I don't really want to be in charge of maintaining such a doc forever. I'd be happy to convert it to a Google spreadsheet once for others to help maintain though. I can't seem to add or edit to the workbook you linked here.

John NYC
3-Jan-2010, 18:53
View Camera Techniques

My copy is the 6th edition. There's a 7th edition that's been out for quite a while now and I assume the 6th edition is only available used. Before someone rushes out to buy the 7th edition just for these specs they should make sure the specs are still in the 7th edition. I'm sure someone here must own the 7th edition and should be able to confirm this.

It might make sense to see if Peter responds first? Perhaps the models listed are not available new anymore (the focus of the list so far). His website says he is semi-retired.

Oren Grad
3-Jan-2010, 19:33
It might make sense to see if Peter responds first? Perhaps the models listed are not available new anymore (the focus of the list so far). His website says he is semi-retired.

John, "Pocket View" is the name that Peter has used to refer to all of his monorail view cameras for as far back as I can remember. The data in Stroebel aren't necessarily representative of any random Gowland Pocket View you run across, because of all the variation over the years. But by the same token, I wouldn't worry about it - it's not worth your time to track down all the variations. Just put an asterisk on the Gowland entries in your table, and a footnote saying that buyers who have particular requirements should be sure to ask the seller about the relevant details for the particular sample on offer.

timparkin
4-Jan-2010, 00:11
Is that your personal account? If so, maybe it makes sense for the forum owners to create a Google Docs account.

I don't mind doing the initial legwork I've done, but I don't really want to be in charge of maintaining such a doc forever. I'd be happy to convert it to a Google spreadsheet once for others to help maintain though. I can't seem to add or edit to the workbook you linked here.


Yes, it's a personal account. I'm happy to make a copy editable by everyone - you can also embed the table in a web page so it would be a good addition to the normal LF page (with a forum google account of some sort).

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArUk_B4TzTHfdHdQaHZiOVZqeGpUbzNPZ2RZSzJPd0E&hl=en_GB

I'll keep my version read only and then I can 'vet' any edits (just in case someone deletes the whole lot by accident - in otherwords, play with this version as much as you like).

Tim

John NYC
4-Jan-2010, 01:03
Yes, it's a personal account. I'm happy to make a copy editable by everyone - you can also embed the table in a web page so it would be a good addition to the normal LF page (with a forum google account of some sort).

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArUk_B4TzTHfdHdQaHZiOVZqeGpUbzNPZ2RZSzJPd0E&hl=en_GB

I'll keep my version read only and then I can 'vet' any edits (just in case someone deletes the whole lot by accident - in otherwords, play with this version as much as you like).

Tim

Ok, I've added it to a new sheet on your page. This now will be the master copy.

John Powers
4-Jan-2010, 05:40
Yes, it's a personal account. I'm happy to make a copy editable by everyone - you can also embed the table in a web page so it would be a good addition to the normal LF page (with a forum google account of some sort).

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArUk_B4TzTHfdHdQaHZiOVZqeGpUbzNPZ2RZSzJPd0E&hl=en_GB

I'll keep my version read only and then I can 'vet' any edits (just in case someone deletes the whole lot by accident - in otherwords, play with this version as much as you like).

Tim


The link goes to "Copy of LF lenses for LF Forum". Is there a link to the camera spread sheet available?

Thanks again for doing this.

John

John NYC
4-Jan-2010, 10:04
The link goes to "Copy of LF lenses for LF Forum". Is there a link to the camera spread sheet available?

Thanks again for doing this.

John

Yes, at the bottom you can click on the link that says "8x10 Field Cameras" and it will take you to the sheet.

John NYC
4-Jan-2010, 10:11
Got a confirmation and clarfication from Wehman and updated the Google Docs version of the spreadsheet.

Folks, please be careful not to delete any info, it will auto-save and disappear. Eventually, we'll need to lock this spreadsheet.

John NYC
7-Jan-2010, 19:44
Didn't get a response from either Gowland or Ritter (though someone added rise/fall numbers on the google doc sheet for the Ritter). I've seen Bob around on the forum; maybe someone who knows him can ping him for the Wista numbers?

As for me and my reasons for making this list, I've pretty much made up my mind now, and this exercise definitely helped me. Going to think on it over the weekend and then hopefully pull the trigger next week.

If anyone wants to take on putting this sheet on the main page, feel free. Or if we just leave it here in this thread, fine, too. Hopefully we'll get the rest of the data eventually though.

scavenger73
11-Jan-2010, 09:39
I think i will go for the Shen-Hao FCL 810 A II....that's what i can aafford...i am a happy owner of the hzx 45 and i have to say I find it really pretty good...

sha_hong
16-Jan-2010, 08:07
good info.
i prefer metal machine.