who knows their history re: Kodak tranny color film, late 40's early 50's [Archive]

Raymond Bleesz

3-Dec-2009, 20:53

anchored

3-Dec-2009, 21:20

Altho just a little before my time (but dad shot trannies): I believe Kodak Kodachrome was the most oft-used transparency film of the time.

Glenn

rdenney

3-Dec-2009, 21:26

I have stumbled across an archive of Kodak 4x5 color tranny film--shot in the late 40's, early 50's. Can you provide info regarding what Kodak might have had at that time?

Trannys are in very bad shape--not much color left--stored at high alpine altitude in Colorado.

Sounds like Ektachrome, which in sheets first used the E3 process, which came out in the early 50's, as I recall. E4 replaced it in the 60's.

The color dyes in Ektachrome, especially the early stuff, fade badly. I have E4-process Ektachrome slides from the 70's that have noticeably faded. I have some Anscochrome transparencies from the early 70's that are all but gone.

If it was Kodachrome, it would not be faded to any great extent.

Rick "noting only two choices from Kodak" Denney

Gem Singer

3-Dec-2009, 21:33

Merg Ross

3-Dec-2009, 22:45

Could also be Kodak Ektachrome. It was around in the 1940's. So was I.

Ektachrome could be developed in a home darkroom.

Kodachrome required lab. processing.

Both of these were color reversal films.

Gem, you are correct. Ektachrome was available in the 1940's; perhaps only late in that decade, however Kodak provided Edward Weston with both Ektachrome and Kodachrome for his color work in 1948.

benrains

3-Dec-2009, 22:55

Whenever someone in the LF forums uses the terms "trannys" or "trannies" to talk about transparency film, I can't help but imagine you're actually talking about transvestites.

And that makes the sentences like the following sound very funny to me: "Trannys are in very bad shape--not much color left--stored at high alpine altitude in Colorado." Maybe they'd get their color back if you invited them in from the cold for some hot cocoa and soup?

rdenney

3-Dec-2009, 23:17

Gem, you are correct. Ektachrome was available in the 1940's; perhaps only late in that decade, however Kodak provided Edward Weston with both Ektachrome and Kodachrome for his color work in 1948.

Was sheet film available early on? I seem to recall that E2 was available in roll films only, and it wasn't until E3 that sheet films were available.

Rick "who hasn't thought about this in about 25 years" Denney

Merg Ross

3-Dec-2009, 23:32

Was sheet film available early on? I seem to recall that E2 was available in roll films only, and it wasn't until E3 that sheet films were available.

Rick "who hasn't thought about this in about 25 years" Denney

For sure, 8x10 Ektachrome was available in 1948.

Edward Weston took his last road trip, with my parents and Dody, in 1948. They spent a week in the Death Valley area (rented a cabin in Rhyolite) and it was there that my father loaded Edward's holders with Ektachrome film, and also Kodachrome. Edward was unable to do the chore himself, as Parkinson's had taken away his ability to do so. If you look at Edward's color work from 1947-8, you will note that both Ektachrome and Kodachrome films were used.

Mark Sampson

4-Dec-2009, 06:15

some semi-educated guesses; Kodachrome sheet film went away early, probably in the early '50s. I'd guess partly because the (very large and expensive) processing machines were meant for sprocketed long rolls, e.g. 35mm and motion picture. Ektachrome was introduced as a process that anyone could use, because Kodak lost a monopoly lawsuit (owning K-chrome film and processing).
My own color film experience begins in the early '70s, when roll Ektachrome was E-4 and the sheet process was E-3; both were effectively replaced by E-6 in 1977 or so.

Raymond Bleesz

4-Dec-2009, 08:38

Hey fellows--thanks for the input as I have further info at this time--Almost positive image shot late 40's rather than into the '50's--still questionable--Looking at a tranny, there is the following nomenclature---"Eastman--Safety--Kodak" and a number which is not constant--maybe processing number.

Very possible the original shooter did his own processing--there by it would be Ektachrome--From Clear Creek County (Georgetown--the Silver Queen of the West where these images came from) to Denver for processing (Kodachrome) in the late 40's over route 6 would have taken many hours. Hopefully, further material will be shared with you as there are also bw images & perhaps further trannys in this "collection" Included in it is an image of Breckenridge in 1896, by the town photographer---mining shacks in a May snowstorm.

And enjoyed the humor of the day regarding "trannys"--Keep up the good work guys

Raymond

rdenney

4-Dec-2009, 11:02

Very possible the original shooter did his own processing--there by it would be Ektachrome--From Clear Creek County (Georgetown--the Silver Queen of the West where these images came from) to Denver for processing (Kodachrome) in the late 40's over route 6 would have taken many hours. Hopefully, further material will be shared with you as there are also bw images & perhaps further trannys in this "collection" Included in it is an image of Breckenridge in 1896, by the town photographer---mining shacks in a May snowstorm.

As persuasive as that is, the fading to me is far more persuasive to the point of being conclusive. Severe fading was an unfortunate inevitability with early Ektachrome, while Kodachrome is generally thought to be about as archival as it gets with color. If these were Kodachrome, they would not be severely faded. Ergo, Ektachrome.

Rick "really appreciating that (nearly) first-hand history from Mr. Ross" Denney

Nathan Potter

4-Dec-2009, 14:10

I used E3 Ektachrome as a kid as early as 1953 in both 4x5 and 35mm. I processed it myself in the family bathroom. Reversal was non chemical using a photoflood. The degree of fading varied with the care exercised in processing but was noticeable within 10 years. The reds faded less than the other colors. After 50 years some of my material is almost clear but even the best retain only 1/4 to 1/2 original density while the Kodachromes retain 3/4 to nearly all the original density.

You most likely have E3 Ektachromes.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

Merg Ross

4-Dec-2009, 16:11

Rick, thanks. I should probably refrain from interjecting such trivia to the forum, but at least it served to verify dates.

In doing some quick research, I have learned that Kodak introduced Ektachrome sheet film in 1946, with E-1 processing. As you and Nate have noted, among the characteristics of Ektachrome was instability. Color shift and almost total abscence of image over time, are well documented. In fact, I have a drawer full of evidence, slides from the late 1940's (Ektachrome roll was introduced in 1947) that are trash.

rdenney

4-Dec-2009, 17:27

Rick, thanks. I should probably refrain from interjecting such trivia to the forum, but at least it served to verify dates.

Never underestimate the value of such "trivia".

Rick "privileged to learn such trivia from those who were there" Denney

Nathan Potter

4-Dec-2009, 20:48

Merg, your draw has confirmed that I was much less sloppy processing E3 as a kid than I had thought. Trivia can have great psychological value at times.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

archer

5-Dec-2009, 02:18

Dear Merg;
I enjoy the stories you relate about your dad and the history you've been privileged to live. Please don't stop. You are a rare asset for these forums.
Denise Libby

Raymond Bleesz

5-Dec-2009, 08:34

Merg, Nate & Others,, Thank you for your responses as they have been educational. Since I started this dialogue, one more question. Can one in anyway, enhance what might exist in a tranny E1 1946 era bit of film. chemically--not PS. Can one perhaps put a tranny in distilled water, perhaps with Orbit Bath to remove grit, deposit of sorts, etc?. I ask, because with PS I can enhance an image to sub satisfactory standards, however, there is just too much grit, deposit of sorts on the film to make the effort worth while.

thank you--in the Vail Valley-----Raymond and while I have your attention Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays to you all--it's been a very interesting year all the way around. Sante

Merg Ross

5-Dec-2009, 12:15

Dear Merg;
I enjoy the stories you relate about your dad and the history you've been privileged to live. Please don't stop. You are a rare asset for these forums.
Denise Libby

Good morning, Denise:
I appreciate your kind remarks. I am indeed privileged to have lived in such a vital time for photography. My occasional anecdotal comments are, in most cases, an attempt to separate fact from fiction. Some of the history of photography during my lifetime is already being rewritten, by well meaning individuals (not members of this forum). When possible, I like to "set the record straight". That you enjoy my stories gives me great pleasure. Thanks.

Bill_1856

6-Dec-2009, 08:18

I just checked my old box of 4x5 color from the early 50s. Some were in perfect shape, which had to be daylight KODACHROME, and had TWO SEMI-CIRCULAR NOTCHES, whereas several nearly faded out chromes from my Father's funeral must have been daylight EKTACHROME, and had a SINGLE SEMI-CIRCULAR NOTCH.
Incidentally, there were also some color prints which could have been printed yesterday. They were on a cellulose base and labeled "Kodachrome prints by Eastman Kodak."