Advice for Beginner

[jknightsmith]

Apologies if this is posted in the wrong place.

I have been thinking about shooting with a large format camera for a while, but don't know where to start. I think the idea of taking my time to shoot with the camera would really suit my shooting style. I aim to shoot black and white and my goal is to get a nice range of tones in my images and print them at good clarity up to 100cmx100cm in size. I shoot landscapes and will do all my processing digitally.

There's a lot of information on the internet, but I was hoping someone could give me some more concrete information on this forum.

I'd like some advice on what actual gear I need to buy. I think I need the following, but would like some clarification or suggestions:
Camera - Perhaps a Tachihara 4x5
Lens - 80 or 90mm not sure what type to buy
Light meter
Scanner - Do I need a flatbed or are drum scans better for the size I want.

I also don't want to spend too much money on gear but I'd like to get as good print quality as I can.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[rdenney]

I'd like some advice on what actual gear I need to buy. I think I need the following, but would like some clarification or suggestions:
Camera - Perhaps a Tachihara 4x5
Lens - 80 or 90mm not sure what type to buy
Light meter
Scanner - Do I need a flatbed or are drum scans better for the size I want.

One principle often demonstrated on this forum: There is always more money you can spend to get that extra increment of quality. I don't think anyone here thinks we have achieved the best quality possible, and everyone must set their own quality standard.

100cm is 40 inches, and 40 inches is ten times the 4" narrow dimension of 4x5 film. Many will argue that flatbeds are only good up to 4 or 5x, some will argue that they produce quite acceptable results up to 8 or 9x, and others will argue that they never produce really good results compared to a drum scan. 10x is at the outside of this range, and if your standards are particularly high (or they become so) you might find that a flatbed won't meet your needs. There are several options for dealing with that:

1. Get drum scans made. This is the best available option, but by far the most expensive, especially if you do much work.

2. Buy a high-end scanner of your own. In my opinion, scanning would then become your hobby (or profession) to really take advantage of that option. And then it's quite expensive. An Imacon scan is between a flatbed scan and a true drum scan in quality, and the scanner, even used, will cost thousands. There are high-end flat-bed scanners, too, and they also cost in the thousands.

3. Use a larger format. 5x7 would get you your 40" print at 8x, which is more within the range of a carefully used Epson scanner if you aren't a perfectionist. 8x10 would allow a 5x enlargement--well within the capabilities of a cheaper scanner. But the camera, lenses, and especially film will be much more expensive and challenging to use.

If the 40" print is a rare need, then you might be quite happy with 4x5 and a flat-bed scanner for routine work, and drum scans for those occasions when you need the big print.

As for lenses, a 90 is quite wide on 4x5, and you may prefer to start with a 120 even if you like wide angles. Most large-format photographers report that they just don't use as wide a field of view with large format as they do with smaller formats. You'll have to decide that for yourself. I have wide lenses--down to 47--but mostly to support roll-film formats. I would start with something in the normal range (maybe 120-210) and be sure you like doing large format before delving into more extreme optics.

Look up the image circle for prospective lenses (Google is your friend here). For 4x5 a lens must have an image circle of about 160 to cover the format, and more than that allows movements. If you don't know what I mean by image circle, then spend some time reading the LF Home Page tab above, and consider a book on large-format camera use, before spending big money.

For light meters, most large-format photographers use some variation of the Zone System, at least the part where they previsualize the final print, measure tones in the scene, and then place tones as values in their ultimate print. Then, they expose and process accordingly to achieve those tones. For that approach, a 1-degree spot meter is particularly useful. The Pentax models are probably most popular, but they all work if properly calibrated. Others are just as committed to using incident meters, and still others base their exposures on experience. You can also use a small camera with a telephoto lens and an internal spot metering mode, especially if the meter in that camera is already proven to you.

As to the choice of camera, there is so much that relates to personal style and intentions that there is no way to answer that. My recommendation is to start with the cheapest quality variation on the type you think you want, preferably used, and then use it. If it fully satisfies you, then you've saved money. If it doesn't, sell it and get what you want, with the advantage that this time you'll know what works for you. Buying used helps maintain the value of the investment.

And don't ignore the extremely inexpensive but high-quality used monorail view cameras. For many, this type of camera meets all their needs, and in some cases (mine included) more readily and cheaply than a field camera like the Tachi.

Rick "who started with a New-Vue and a 8-1/2" Ilex Paragon" Denney

[drew.saunders]

Apologies if this is posted in the wrong place.

I have been thinking about shooting with a large format camera for a while, but don't know where to start.


This question comes up about every week or so. Click on the "LF Home Page" at the top and/or do a search for "beginner" and you'll see lots of useful information.



I think the idea of taking my time to shoot with the camera would really suit my shooting style. I aim to shoot black and white and my goal is to get a nice range of tones in my images and print them at good clarity up to 100cmx100cm in size. I shoot landscapes and will do all my processing digitally.

LF will do that for you, and shooting LF film, scanning it and printing it digitally is quite common these days.


Camera - Perhaps a Tachihara 4x5
Lens - 80 or 90mm not sure what type to buy
Light meter
Scanner - Do I need a flatbed or are drum scans better for the size I want.


A Tachihara is a fine camera, but might be a little difficult to use with shorter lenses. I have one, I've since upgraded to an Ebony, and found it a bit tight with an 80mm lens. It works just fine with a 120mm or longer lens, and just barely works with a 300mm lens.

There's only one 80mm lens that covers 4x5 and it isn't cheap (Schneider Super-Symmar XL). There are plenty of 90mm lenses. You'll probably want to start with something longer. Like others have said, you'll likely use longer lenses with 4x5 than you do with smaller formats. I use the 15mm and 24mm lenses on my 35mm more than I use the 80mm on my 4x5. I use the 250mm and 300mm on 4x5 much more than I use 90mm on 35mm. If you're used to the 2:3 ratio of 35mm, then comparing focal lengths to the 4:5 ratio of 4x5 isn't straightforward, since you can compare using the diagonal, horizontal or vertical dimension, and different people prefer different comparisons. I've found that comparing along the horizontal dimension (36mm for "35mm" film or FF digital vs. 121mm for 4x5) works with the way I shoot.

120, 125, or 135 are more useful wide angle lenses to start with and, conveniently, tend to be cheaper than an equivalent quality/age 90mm. 150mm is considered "normal" (similar to a 45mm-50mm for 35mm) but feels to short for me, so I use a 165mm or 200mm as my "normal" lenses. 210mm is also very popular in 4x5 as a "long normal" lens. 240mm and up are "long" lenses. In 4x5, "telephoto" is used to refer to actual telephoto design lenses, not just to anything longer than "normal." In short, pardon the pun, a real telephoto design lens lets you use less bellows than a regular lens of the same focal length. For a Tachihara with c. 330mm of bellows draw, you generally can't use a lens over 300mm in focal length, but there are 400mm telephoto lenses that use less than 300mm of bellows. If that confuses you, just don't start with a telephoto lens.

Light meter: If you're not familiar with spot meters, start with a regular handheld meter. You can use your existing camera as a meter to start.

Scanner: Buy a flatbed (you can get an older Epson for cheap or free), send the really good negatives out for drum scanning.

Don't forget a tripod, film holders, and dark cloth.



I also don't want to spend too much money on gear but I'd like to get as good print quality as I can.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

There's quite a lot of good used equipment out there. No need to buy new, especially if you're just beginning.

Try http://www.keh.com to see a lot of choices in lenses, a few cameras, light meters, etc.

Drew

[h2oman]

I'm coming up on 2 years of LF, so I'm still a relative beginner. Here would be my advice:

1. Don't worry about your output yet. Every large print from a drum scan is going to cost you a bundle, then what are you going to do with it? If you are going to frame it, there goes a bunch more cash. Just get the gear and go have fun taking pictures for a while.

2. Start with a lens in the 135-180 range. I got a 90mm pretty early on - it is the right lens for certain shots, but it is still a bit aggravating to work with in comparison with my 150 (which I started with) and 240.

3. Get a decent meter. I used my DSLR for a while, which actually worked beautifully with color transparencies. Then I bought a Pentax spotmeter and started doing B&W negs, and the spotmeter is definitely the way to go for that, at least for me.

All that said, I bought a used consumer flatbed (Canonscan 4990F or something like that) for $225 from someone here, and I got Vuescan software. Using that and my Epson printer I have a lot of fun. My shots might look better with drum scans, but at this point the real limiting factor for me is the images I create!

Good luck, and have fun!

Gregg Waterman

[jknightsmith]

Thanks guys for the replys. I didn't see the home page link, I was just searching through the forums.

I will start reading that page, there seems to be a lot of good information there.

Thanks again.

James

[Robert Hughes]

One principle often demonstrated on this forum: There is always more money you can spend to get that extra increment of quality.

And, conversely, the cheapest beat-up old press camera can give you image quality that will wow anybody used to 35mm or digital point & shoots.

[Lee Christopher]

Hi James,

From one beginner to another, welcome!

You're in excellent hands here and I am sure you will glean a lot of information from the home page, as did I, but it takes awhile to really digest so much.

All I think I can add is stay away from the ultra-wide angle lenses unless you're dead sure you need them e.g., for achitecture and interiors but since your interest is in landscapes, even a 90mm may seem really wide on a 4x5. Ultra wides can be downright painful to use since the very slightest movement is all it takes to alter something. I am learning that from first-hand experience! :D

[Ken Lee]

Depending on where you live, you might be able to connect with other LF people, attend a workshop, or schedule some private instruction.