Current ink Baryta paper favorites?

[Kirk Gittings]

A while back I settled on Innova F-Type Gloss Black Max and bought a quantity of it. I love the deep rich D-max I can get and the paper base color, but am mediocre about the surface which is just ok. When I need to print larger than 16x20 I work with a local art printer who uses Ilford Gold Fiber Silk (haven't used it in a year-has it changed). I love the D-max and the surface on this paper, but dislike the slightly grey paper base. I mat with a 1" window and the faint grey border I dislike.

Any way I am running out of the Innova and am in the market for a new paper. What are people liking and why?

[Gem Singer]

Since you like the baryta coating, try the Harman FB Mp Matt Professional Inkjet paper.

Or, if you prefer, Harman also makes a glossy surface version.

Both are excellent papers, IMHO.

[Greg Lockrey]

Dittoes on the Harmon Gloss. There is a good pick up of detail that is noticable compared to Epson paper.

[Frank Petronio]

I don't monkey around w papers or print large but I really like the Harman Gloss FB AI, I tried it and was happy.

[Kirk Gittings]

Since you like the baryta coating, try the Harman FB Mp Matt Professional Inkjet paper.

Or, if you prefer, Harman also makes a glossy surface version.

Both are excellent papers, IMHO.

I also print on mat papers. It depends on the image and show etc. So called Baryta inkjet papers were evolving rapidly when I bought my Innova inventory-hence, now that I am almost out of it, why I am looking to test where these papers have evolved to.

[anchored]

Kirk,

I use Harman Gloss FB, Ilford Gold Fibre Silk, and also Hahnemuhle PhotoRag Baryta. Preference for cold tones goes to the Harman offering (altho' there's not much difference between it and Ilford). The Hahnemuhle provides a warmer rendition than the other two.

These papers aren't showing much if any bronzing with Epson 7600 or Canon iPF5000 printers.

Another favorite of mine is Hahnemuhle Pearl, but it does show bronzing on B&W's... however the bronzing cannot be seen when mounted behind TrueView UV glass.

[Gem Singer]

Kirk,

Seems like the baryta coated papers have come a long way.

Bob, Glenn, and myself, here in Dallas, have tested several brands of baryta inkjet papers, including various surface finishes and weights.

We have access to HP, Canon, and Epson printers and the three brands of inks.

The Harman baryta papers seem to work very well with both the HP, Canon, and Epson inks, using the proper profiles.

The Ilford Gold Silk baryta paper has a tendency to bronze with the HP Vivera ink but not with the Epson or Canon inks.

The HP Photo Black ink showed the best DMax with every type of paper we tested.

Bob McCarthy can give you more detailed info. However, his internet access is down at the present time.

[Ed Richards]

Harmon gloss FB, hands down, if you want a smooth paper with no bronzing - I used the Innova until I got the Harmon, then I did not even bother to use up the remaining sheets of Innova, the Harmon is that much better. There is now a warm tone paper version as well, which only looks warm next to a cold white paper. Very nice stuff for a lot of images.

[Kirk Gittings]

Thanks all. Seems like the common recomendation is the Harmon.

Ed, I have 0 bronzing and no gloss differential on the Innova. These are two problems I forgot still existed. But it is good to hear peoples experience with the new papers and the M problem. I think I will buy a pack of the Harmon and give it a try. After reading people's recommendations here, I went on the web to see what else was available about the Harmon. Here is an interesting article by a printer I respect. Amongst other high points he measures the Harmon as having a greater d-max and dynamic range than silver. Impressive.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/Surface2.shtml

[Bob McCarthy]

Kirt for black and white, Harmon wins the dmax prize going away with the baryta glossy. Others are very competitive when your speaking color prints. I really like the ilford Gallerie silk. We been testing papers here for the past 6 months. RIPs rule is the mantra. Btw the Harmon matte paper has a nice hand but I find the surface ordinary. I still like the prints I see on German Etching.

Bob

[Kirk Gittings]

Bob, yes I am only looking at printing B&W for my art photography. I send out all the color. As per RIPs, I have been using ImagePrint for years now. I am on IP7 now and still happy with it. I don't see anything in IP8 that I need.

[Bob McCarthy]

Im quite certain you'll really enjoy the Harmon paper. The glossy has a "very" glossy surface, almost over the top, but that's a matter of taste.

I had to adjust inking levels as I was oversaturating the paper at first. Got that tweeked and the black didn't diminish a bit.

5 stars for my money.

Bob

[Tyler Boley]

Just to vary the input a bit, not to be argumentative, I am not a fan of the Harman at all. The base is way too blue, much bluer than any traditional photography paper and any available matte board. Also, the gloss is nothing like a beautiful air dried fiber, but nearly identical to a standard RC gloss print. Not that I feel it should mimic anything, but it lacks an elegant feel to me. The warm version looks promising but I' haven't had time to really tweak it into a sweet spot.
Much as I wanted to like the Ilford Gold Fiber Silk, the strong curl from rolls made it too difficult to deal with, sheets look fine. The HP gloss differential was solved, according to my friend John Dean in Atlanta, with a driver update that allowed more GLOP with some custom setting.
So far, for me, the Photo Rag Baryta has been the most successful, and though many new papers have come along since, Silver Rag remains a great performer though a little toothy. The many others so far mentioned fell a bit short of these, I'm looking forward to trying the Canson Platine Fibre Rag, as their matte papers are testing well here.
Just my opinions...
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/

[Ed Richards]

Kirk,

One suggestion when you try the paper - run at least a few prints without Image print, using just the Epson AWB setting. I did not get as good an output with Imageprint on my 3800 as with AWB, and I even had the Imageprint folks make a custom profile for my printer. I will post my AWB settings when I get home. I moved to Qimage for my black and white, using it for final output sharpening and to keep the printer and layout settings. It is really nice to just have to do proper sharpening on the master image. I think spin out a tif for printing to Qimage.

My major issue with Innova is that it does a surface texture, and Harmon has none. Being old enough to have used silver paper - and even to have ferrotyped it - my preference is for that classic glossly but not ferrotyped silver paper look.

[Kirk Gittings]

Ed, Were you using IP7? Oddly when I got the 3800 I switched to AWB from IP6, fooled with it for a few months, used Chan's profiles, had some made, was not happy at all on baryta papers, was fine on mat, took one of my typical long breaks from printing, bought a new computer, upgraded to IP7 to look at IP again (I had owned it since it came out but never installed it) and love it, superb softproofing, total tonal control......

I would like to see your AWB settings.

I agree about Innova's surface texture.

[Kirk Gittings]

Just to vary the input a bit, not to be argumentative, I am not a fan of the Harman at all. The base is way too blue, much bluer than any traditional photography paper and any available matte board. Also, the gloss is nothing like a beautiful air dried fiber, but nearly identical to a standard RC gloss print. Not that I feel it should mimic anything, but it lacks an elegant feel to me. The warm version looks promising but I' haven't had time to really tweak it into a sweet spot.
Much as I wanted to like the Ilford Gold Fiber Silk, the strong curl from rolls made it too difficult to deal with, sheets look fine. The HP gloss differential was solved, according to my friend John Dean in Atlanta, with a driver update that allowed more GLOP with some custom setting.
So far, for me, the Photo Rag Baryta has been the most successful, and though many new papers have come along since, Silver Rag remains a great performer though a little toothy. The many others so far mentioned fell a bit short of these, I'm looking forward to trying the Canson Platine Fibre Rag, as their matte papers are testing well here.
Just my opinions...
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/

I appreciate that input Tyler. As noted above base paper color and surface is extremely important to me.

[Tyler Boley]

It's hard to be critical of a paper so many like, without implying their own prints fall short in some way, which is obviously not the case, everyone's taste is finely honed and individual. It should also be noted the Brooks, clearly a man of good B&W taste, likes the Harman for the Lenswork editions. So, the usual grain of salt...
I'll have my hands on some of the Platine Fiber Rag tomorrow to begin testing. Also, please be warned I've encountered a lot of buggers in the HPR Baryta, not cool. Lastly, don't confuse the Photo Rag Baryta with the Fine Art Baryta, which has a very different feel and surface, less appealing to me.
Tyler

[Wallace_Billingham]

for B&W work you should also try the Hahnemuhle Bamboo paper. It has become my favorite paper for B&W

[Ed Richards]

Kirk,

IP7. It worked great for Innova and a couple of others, it was only Harmon where AWB was better.

Settings
Media type - Premium Glossy Photo Paper
Paper thickness - 4
Platen gap - Wide
Print quality level - Level 5
Print Quality - Superphoto 2800
High speed - on
Finest detail - off
Edge smooting - off
Color adjust - color controls
Tone - darker
Highlight point shift - off

Any others are default.

[Don Hutton]

Just to vary the input a bit, not to be argumentative, I am not a fan of the Harman at all. The base is way too blue, much bluer than any traditional photography paper and any available matte board. http://www.custom-digital.com/My impression is that the Harman Gloss FB Al is still slightly warm tone and in no way "cool" or "blue"... A while back, I did a set of wet prints on Ilford fiber MG glossy (little selenium toning to boost the Dmax) and the same prints from drum scans on the Harman - the Harman base is obviously warmer. I'd actually prefer it to be slightly more neutral!

I find it to be wonderful stuff and use it in both the normal and warmtone; as well as photorag and Epson velvet fine art (wish they made this stuff wider than 17") for matt papers.

[h2oman]

I'm just a hack with a recently purchased 3800 and the standard inkset. I ordered some "regular" Harman FB Al and some warm. The first three prints I made were all the same shot, with those two papers and the Epson Premium Luster that came with the machine. The Epson seemed cool, the warm Harman too warm, and the regular Harman just right. All to my neophyte eye, that is!

[Tyler Boley]

I'm sorry but it's blue, here are some paper base measurements I made of some available photo surface papers well over a year ago-

---
Hahnemuhle FineArt Baryta- 99.9, 1.2, -3.7
Hahnemuhle PhotoRag Pearl- 98.5, 0.1, 1.6
Harman Glossy FB AI- 99.9, 0.2, -3.0
Innova FibaPrint Ultra Smooth Gloss- 97.7, 1.2, -5.4
Innova FibaPrint F-Type White Semi-Matte- 97.7, 0.8, -3.6
Ilford Gold Fiber Silk- 99.8, 0.1, -0.6

These are LAB numbers. No paper is "virtually" white, so the 1st number
will always be less than 100. The second two would be 0 if the paper were
dead neutral. A negative last number indicates blue, so you can see that
GFS is quite neutral compared to the others. Also, the Innova semi matte
is a bit less blue than the gloss.
---

Since then several other papers of interest have come along, I have not done a similar comparison, or added the Harman Warm.

Again, please don't take offense, I'm sure those who use it are making wonderful prints because they have an affinity for it, but it is to the blue side of neutral.
Not that there's anything wrong with that...

Whew, have I presented the facts while covering my a** at the same time adequately? Or just angered more people here?
Tyler

[shileshjani]

I'm sorry but it's blue, here are some paper base measurements I made of some available photo surface papers well over a year ago-

---
Hahnemuhle FineArt Baryta- 99.9, 1.2, -3.7
Hahnemuhle PhotoRag Pearl- 98.5, 0.1, 1.6
Harman Glossy FB AI- 99.9, 0.2, -3.0
Innova FibaPrint Ultra Smooth Gloss- 97.7, 1.2, -5.4
Innova FibaPrint F-Type White Semi-Matte- 97.7, 0.8, -3.6
Ilford Gold Fiber Silk- 99.8, 0.1, -0.6

These are LAB numbers. No paper is "virtually" white, so the 1st number
will always be less than 100. The second two would be 0 if the paper were
dead neutral. A negative last number indicates blue, so you can see that
GFS is quite neutral compared to the others. Also, the Innova semi matte
is a bit less blue than the gloss.
---

Since then several other papers of interest have come along, I have not done a similar comparison, or added the Harman Warm.

Again, please don't take offense, I'm sure those who use it are making wonderful prints because they have an affinity for it, but it is to the blue side of neutral.
Not that there's anything wrong with that...

Whew, have I presented the facts while covering my a** at the same time adequately? Or just angered more people here?
Tyler

My visual assesment matches Tyler's numbers. Ilford Gold Silk is not "warm". It just is not as "cool" as some others.

[Don Hutton]

I'm sorry but it's blue, here are some paper base measurements I made of some available photo surface papers well over a year ago-

---
Hahnemuhle FineArt Baryta- 99.9, 1.2, -3.7
Hahnemuhle PhotoRag Pearl- 98.5, 0.1, 1.6
Harman Glossy FB AI- 99.9, 0.2, -3.0
Innova FibaPrint Ultra Smooth Gloss- 97.7, 1.2, -5.4
Innova FibaPrint F-Type White Semi-Matte- 97.7, 0.8, -3.6
Ilford Gold Fiber Silk- 99.8, 0.1, -0.6

These are LAB numbers. No paper is "virtually" white, so the 1st number
will always be less than 100. The second two would be 0 if the paper were
dead neutral. A negative last number indicates blue, so you can see that
GFS is quite neutral compared to the others. Also, the Innova semi matte
is a bit less blue than the gloss.
---

Since then several other papers of interest have come along, I have not done a similar comparison, or added the Harman Warm.

Again, please don't take offense, I'm sure those who use it are making wonderful prints because they have an affinity for it, but it is to the blue side of neutral.
Not that there's anything wrong with that...

Whew, have I presented the facts while covering my a** at the same time adequately? Or just angered more people here?
TylerTyler

I'm not "angry"! My opinion was just a visual assessment which was so dramatically different to yours, I added it... I haven't waved a measuring tool near it; my observations were simply that and based around a comparison with a genuine wet print on the paper that the Harman was designed to replicate, of the same images.

[h2oman]

No offense taken by me. You have many orders of magnitude more experience and knowledge than I do. I was just saying that somehow the Harmon Gloss gave images that looked like what expected/wanted them to look like, in comparison to just two other papers. What is that place where you can order a package of several different ones to try? I know I've seen posts about it...

[keeds]

for B&W work you should also try the Hahnemuhle Bamboo paper. It has become my favorite paper for B&W

Bamboo does it for me. Fantastic paper. You do have to bump the highlights a bit higher than normal to get a bit of glow due to the lack of base brightness.

[Bill_1856]

A significant problem is evaluating papers is the ambient light. What is blue to some may be warm to another, especially with these #$#%# high-efficiency pigtail bulbs we are all going to be forced to use. Genuine God's Sunlight is hard to beat.

[Tyler Boley]

I've had a chance to work with the Canson Platine Fibre Rag now, and I'd say if tucks in there amidst the others. The paper base hue is pretty neutral, measuring closest to IGFS. It seems to have a bit more gloss differential than Silver Rag and HPR Baryta, as does IGFS, and is a bit smoother. Since the surface texture is very similar to IGFS, I have to think that the addition of a little more gloss and slight tooth to HPRB and Silver Rag help solve the appearance of gloss differential. With the UCK3pk, the inked areas are glossier than the highlights. I'd assume on an HP the use of glop would address this.
To be fair to the thread, the PLatine Fibre is not a baryta paper, nor is Silver Rag and a few of the others mentioned so far. Recently I notice 2 new Canson papers on the web site with the baryta designation, so perhaps there will be others to look at soon. I am impressed with the matte papers from them, so their offerings are worth attention.
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/

[Tyler Boley]

Two more papers worth mentioning to add to this thread for PK papers.
Pictorico Gekko Green-
http://diamond-jet.com/gekkogreen.aspx
Despite some serious drawbacks this paper may have considerable appeal to people on this list. To my eye it has the most successful surface of the majority of papers out there looking to carry some of the inherent attractive qualities of darkroom papers. It has very slightly more texture than Harman Gloss, and it is random and natural looking, similar to gelatin over paper. It is smoother than the other offerings with more texture or stipple, but doesn't have the RC too smooth shine of the Harman. Seems like someone finally nailed it. Very little apparent gloss differential, and no bronzing I can see.
The cons- Available sizes way too limited and small, and no rolls. But those here liking the classic large format/ little enlarged look, with a desktop printer, may have no problem with that. Secondly, despite the unbelievable claim of a warm base, it is very blue to the eye and measurement. Obviously heavy OBAs here. But, with a cold or neutral ink look, it's convincing.
Also, not Baryta, but as they say- baryta-like. OK then.

JonCone Studio Paper Type 5
http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.362672/sc.13/category.28018/.f
I like this stuff, I like the warmer base papers in general. This is right in there with Silver Rag, Ilford Gold Fiber Silk, Canson Platine Fibre Rag, etc. But again, the surface is nicer. More texture than the Ilford, but not as mechanically stippled as Silver Rag, and possibley very slightly less gloss than Silver Rag. So, a more natural texture like air dried fiber. Takes a tremendous amount of ink, very minimal Gloss differential or bronzing.
Even though I like it as is, I suspect an HP with it's GO would take it one notch up, and Cone's double pass gloss K7 setups probably look great. I'm just using it with x800 Epsons and it looks great as is. I finally nailed a look and hue that can sit next to my old developer-cooled, selenium toned, Portriga prints without shame with this paper. Color is great too.

I constantly try new things as they come along, and as I can afford to, so might as well put the results up here and elsewhere even if I don't wind up using the stuff myself.
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/

[gnuyork]

I have done a test with some of the current Baryta papers - Hahnamhule, Ilford Gallery Gold, Epson Exhibition, and the Harmon. For both B&W and Color I prefer the Hahnemhule the best. My second favorite is the Epson and the Ilford. The Ilford a is slightly warm but not brown at all, and I like that for B&W. I printed a 40 image show last spring and all of the B&W was on the Ilford (also due to it being much cheaper than the Hahnemhule), and I had some color images that I did on the Hahnemhule.

I recently got a good deal on the Epson Exhibition through Atlex and ordered a pretty big quantity.

Of all the papers I tested, the Harmon was my least favorite. It was too dark in the shadows for me, and I really didn't like the feel of the paper. With that said I had no custom made profiles, just using the supplied profiles for each paper, so maybe better results could be had with the Harmon...

but my vote for the best is the Hahnemhule.

By the way I have used the Museo Silver Rag in the past, and though it was pretty good, these baryta papers I feel are even better.

[gnuyork]

just want to further clarify, it was the Hahnemhule Fine Art Baryta, the Harmon FB AL Warmtone that I used in my testing. I was using the K3 inks on my R2400 and the free profiles from each manufacturer.

In the past my favorites were matte papers - namely the Hahnemhule Satin Rag and Epson Velvet. Though now that I have used these Baryta papers I don't think I will go back to using the matte papers. That's how much I like them.

[asnapper]

"Two of the most iconic brands in digital photo printing, Harman Technology and Hahnemühle FineArt are joining forces to create a best-in-class range of fine art inkjet media, due to be unveiled for the first time at PMA 2010 in Anaheim, California."

http://www.photographyblog.com/news/harman_professional_inkjet_by_hahnemuehle/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+photographyblog+PhotographyBLOG

[Eirik Berger]

JonCone Studio Paper Type 5
http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.362672/sc.13/category.28018/.f
I like this stuff, I like the warmer base papers in general. This is right in there with Silver Rag, Ilford Gold Fiber Silk, Canson Platine Fibre Rag, etc. But again, the surface is nicer. More texture than the Ilford, but not as mechanically stippled as Silver Rag, and possibley very slightly less gloss than Silver Rag. So, a more natural texture like air dried fiber. Takes a tremendous amount of ink, very minimal Gloss differential or bronzing.
Even though I like it as is, I suspect an HP with it's GO would take it one notch up, and Cone's double pass gloss K7 setups probably look great. I'm just using it with x800 Epsons and it looks great as is. I finally nailed a look and hue that can sit next to my old developer-cooled, selenium toned, Portriga prints without shame with this paper. Color is great too.

I constantly try new things as they come along, and as I can afford to, so might as well put the results up here and elsewhere even if I don't wind up using the stuff myself.
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/

I got 50 sheets of Jon Cones Studio Paper Type 5 along with the Piezography Selenium K7/MPS inkset for Epson 3800 (with 2 blacks (gloss/matte), 6 shades of grey and Gloss optimizer = using all 9 ink slots). I have not tried it yet, but it looks promising. So does the inks which I am trying out these days. :)

I have heard good things about Hahnemuhle FineArt Baryta. Anyone having experiences with this paper. I have not seen it and I am 2000 kilometres from the closest store with this brand of paper in stock. Can someone give me their subjective opinion?

[Tyler Boley]

Fine Art Baryta has many enthusiastic users. It performs well technically, subjectively I found the surface texture a bit too linear for me, and prefer Photo Rag Baryta.
Some of these things you just have to see for yourself, they are both good.
Let us know how your MPS work proceeds, I did a lot of testing with it and was very encouraged, but had to set it aside as I couldn't devote a printer to it at the time.
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/

[JeffKohn]

I too prefer Photo Rag Baryta to Fine Art Baryta. PRB is just a little bit warmer (FAB has OBA's), also cotton-rag paper base is nicer to handle and I prefer the surface texture of PRB as well.

The "Harman Professional Inkjet by Hahnemühle" announcement is interesting. I wonder is this a case of Hahnemühle acquiring Harman and re-branding their papers, or will they be truly new papers.

[Tyler Boley]

I agree Jeff, HPRB is wonderful to handle. This is a subject too little discussed, many of these papers are just ridiculous right off the roll. I've ruined many a PK print, trying to spread it out or flatten. But this is a uniquely soft PK paper, all cotton, and I too appreciate the base hue over the OBA laden papers. You should see the new "Fiber" baryta, it's literally purple...

[gnuyork]

I got 50 sheets of Jon Cones Studio Paper Type 5 along with the Piezography Selenium K7/MPS inkset for Epson 3800 (with 2 blacks (gloss/matte), 6 shades of grey and Gloss optimizer = using all 9 ink slots). I have not tried it yet, but it looks promising. So does the inks which I am trying out these days. :)

I have heard good things about Hahnemuhle FineArt Baryta. Anyone having experiences with this paper. I have not seen it and I am 2000 kilometres from the closest store with this brand of paper in stock. Can someone give me their subjective opinion?

This is my current favorite. See my post above to what I compared it to. In my opinion it's the best I have used yet. I have not tried the Photo Rag Baryta, but now I am interested from the above posts.

[Ed Richards]

> literally purple

That is the selenium look, I am sure the marketing people will tell you.:-)

[Tyler Boley]

yeah, I always loved how selenium tinted the paper base...
Tyler

[Eirik Berger]

Tyler.

I have just printed out some test images with the Selenium MPS-ink on Studio Type 5 paper with the Type5-curve provided by Jon Cone. I have not done a second run with the GO yet, but this really looks good. It is a total different result than the same image made with K3 ink, specially when it comes to shadow details. I guess the Dmax will increase with gloss optimizer, but I think it looks good without... :)

My fears of devoting my Epson 3800 to BW-only has faded away, knowing that it is probably one of the most capable BW inkjet setups available.

I will print some targets of my favorite papers and send it to Jon Cone/Inkjetmall so they can make perfect curves fro QTR.

Note: Those of you getting prints from me in the print exchange gets prints made with K7 Neutral inks on Type 1 (matte) paper.

[Tyler Boley]

judging from the spraying I did over the Type 5, with the 2nd GO pass I suspect you will see not only a dmax bump, but some added dimension. That feeling of ink sitting on top of the paper recedes, and the image feels a bit more in the paper.
Nice to hear it's working out, it's a unique system. Highly "photographic" compared to other PK B&W systems.
Tyler