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Michael Roberts
30-Sep-2009, 09:00
I'm starting a restoration project on a Century Universal 8x10. Restoration may be too strong a word, as the camera has so much dust and grime on it, I'm not sure yet whether I can just clean it up or will need to completely disassemble, sand off the old finish, and refinish.

At the very least, the initial survey shows:

1. bellows need replacing
2. handle needs replacing
3. clean all the wood
4. clean all the aluminum and brass.

I've also noticed some missing parts, so if anyone has the following, please contact me:

1. missing pin for spring on lower left of back
2. missing gg holder
3. missing knob for tightening second extension.

I'll also post a WTB for these.
Thanks!
Michael

Michael Roberts
30-Sep-2009, 09:04
Pics of parts needed/missing:

Michael Roberts
30-Sep-2009, 09:13
I'll post some pics as I make progress, and may lean on you guys (& gals) for advice as needed.

I've seen Sean's pics of how these can clean up http://www.largeformatphotography.info/century/century_universal_8x10.html so I'm psyched to get started!

Brian Ellis
30-Sep-2009, 10:10
The clips holding the ground glass look just like those used on Deardorff 8x10s (and probably others). So unless you're going for 100% perfect authenticity, you could probably use Deardorff clips which should be a lot easier to find than ones original to a Century.

Michael Roberts
30-Sep-2009, 11:23
Thanks Brian...does this apply to the spring pin also?

Michael Roberts
30-Sep-2009, 11:27
BTW, just finished a complete wipe down with Murphy's Oil Soap (and Baby Shampoo on the bellows). Looks like I'm going to have to strip 'er down. Most of the shellac is worn off, so we're down to the wood in lots of places already.

The wet wipe down of the bellows took care of most of the dryness (didn't help the holes, though).

ic-racer
30-Sep-2009, 12:59
If you have not already seen this thread, it might give you some ideas. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=29267&highlight=century

Good luck, keep us posted, it looks like a fantastic project!

Michael Roberts
30-Sep-2009, 16:27
Thanks, ic-racer,
Read over your thread--lots of good info, and very inspiring.

Like you, I'm on the fence about the bellows. I'm leaning toward Custom Bellows if for no other reason than the bellows on this camera have to compress really, really tight for the front standard to fit inside the rear frame to close the camera. If I'm going to completely strip and refinish all the wood and metal, I'd really like to dodge the bellows work.....

Jim Michael
30-Sep-2009, 17:01
When I did my 2D I completely disassembled everything held together with screws, then stripped the wood with Formby's Furniture Refinisher. That was about 20 years ago and there may be less caustic/flammable/etc. materials available now, I've heard of an orange oil based stripper for aircraft finishes that might be an alternative. Once the old finish was off it was on with several coats of tung oil.

I think someone mentioned Custom Bellows being the source for Canham's bellows, if so that might help weight-wise -- always a consideration.

Re the handle, when I replaced mine I found that a piece of latigo leather dog leash worked perfectly, I just had to trim to match the original. It's still strong after all this time.

ic-racer
30-Sep-2009, 17:07
Thanks, ic-racer,
Read over your thread--lots of good info, and very inspiring.

Like you, I'm on the fence about the bellows. I'm leaning toward Custom Bellows if for no other reason than the bellows on this camera have to compress really, really tight for the front standard to fit inside the rear frame to close the camera. If I'm going to completely strip and refinish all the wood and metal, I'd really like to dodge the bellows work.....

I think your camera is going to be more useable in the long run than my Century, so spending the $$ on a pro-build bellows will probably be worthwhile.

In my case, I'm glad I did the home made bellows because I have about $50 in the whole project (including the brass lens and cost of the camera). Using the Century for 2 years gave me a good chance to know what I wanted in a 'modern' 8x10 camera.

John Jarosz
30-Sep-2009, 17:14
I'll second the recommendation of using Formby's to remove the rest of the finish. There's no water used when you use Formby's so the grain in the wood doesn't swell. A little sanding and you are ready for a finish.

Don't throw away any parts no matter how bad they are until the whole project is done.

I use tung oil to finish the wood. Wiped on, a lot of coats, but it gives a nice finish.

John

Michael Roberts
30-Sep-2009, 17:18
Okay, here's a question for those of you who have restored 2Ds and other oldies:
I ran into this problem with a circa-1925 Empire State a few years ago, and I've got the same problem here:

The shellac is worn away very unevenly. I think if I could find something to use as a finish coat that would fill in the worn away shellac I could get away with not having to strip or sand so much. On my last restore job with the ES, I never could find anything to "fill in" the missing shellac. When I tried to coat over the wood parts where the shellac was partially missing, it looked terrible--i.e., like I had done just what I did--tried to coat it over. So, does anyone know of a product that will "fill in" partially missing shellac?

My guess is probably not, but there's a lot of expertise on this forum.....

Michael Roberts
30-Sep-2009, 17:20
Thanks John! I used tung oil on the spring back and base rails of my 2D. Fortunately I didn't have to strip the front or back frames/standards on that one. I like the finish of tung oil, too.

John Jarosz
30-Sep-2009, 17:48
I've restored 2 2D's and built my 8x20 from 2 others.

You'll never get the new finish to meld into the old. The only thing I've found when it gets that bad is to strip it off completely and then work from the bare wood. The Formby's is so good because it affects the wood very minimally. Use as little sandpaper as possible.

Depending on how tight the screws are, you may want to put some wood filler in the screw holes to tighten up the grip of the screws.

John

John Jarosz
30-Sep-2009, 17:52
The bellows looks like toast. When you have a new one made, send the front & back frames of the bellows (You could send the whole bellows) to whoever you get the new one from. That way, the new bellows should fit exactly like the old one.

John

John Jarosz
30-Sep-2009, 17:55
Using the Century for 2 years gave me a good chance to know what I wanted in a 'modern' 8x10 camera.

What's wrong with the old cameras??????? :D :eek: :cool:

John

Michael Roberts
30-Sep-2009, 18:11
I've restored 2 2D's and built my 8x20 from 2 others.

You'll never get the new finish to meld into the old. The only thing I've found when it gets that bad is to strip it off completely and then work from the bare wood. The Formby's is so good because it affects the wood very minimally. Use as little sandpaper as possible.

Depending on how tight the screws are, you may want to put some wood filler in the screw holes to tighten up the grip of the screws.

John

Yeah, my real problem with NOT stripping off the old finish is that the shellac has gotten so dark (where it hasn't worn off), that you can't see the wood grain at all. I like to see the grain--I don't mind a dark stain--but I don't want the finish to look like black paint (yuck!). I'll try the Formby's!

ic-racer
30-Sep-2009, 19:08
What's wrong with the old cameras??????? :D :eek: :cool:

John

Actually I have got a brass lens on the Century now, so its not forgotten, and I'm pretty excited about seeing what that lens does (its been raining all week :( )

ic-racer
30-Sep-2009, 19:18
On my camera I sprayed clear nitrocellulose laquer over the existing finish then rubbed it out to give it a shine again. All the imperfections and dents are still in the wood, but I know I would not be able to sand them all out if I stripped the camera.

I knew the nitrocellulose would cover shallac becasue I had just re-finished a guitar with nitrocellulose over shellac.

My only problem with that was that I wet sanded. On a solid body electric guitar wet sanding the laquer is the norm, the because the wood should be perfectly sealed. On the Century there were so many nooks and crannies that I got some residual moisture under the finish in some spots. This turns the clear laquer to white. So, if I did it again I'd not do any wet sanding.

The other thing I would do different is to not rub out the wood rails. The rubbing compound got in the nooks and crannies and leaves a white residue. I would just have given a good final coat with some retarder in the laquer so it layers out to a nice shine that would not need rubbing out.

Brian Ellis
30-Sep-2009, 21:09
Thanks Brian...does this apply to the spring pin also?

Sorry, I don't know about the spring pin.

RichSBV
30-Sep-2009, 21:49
A nice old one with original leather bellows. In case you didn't kn ow, Graflex did vinyl replacement bellows in later years that held up exceptionally well. It was suggested to me way back when to use Camera Bellows in England for a replacement as they would be the only ones who could make a true replacement. That tight fitting nesting bellows is difficult to make and I've heard from people who were very disappointed in US made bellows replacements.

Your missing tightening screw is a standard size, I believe a #6 but could be a #8. I bought a dozen of them in different sizes from the hardware store as replacements and they're cheap. So you could easily buy one of each size to make sure as I did. A replacement is slightly larger than the original but still clears the frame below it, but just barely. I know, I didn't reply to your e-mail about that knob. Sorry, it's difficult to keep track of things around here and I did keep it with intentions of replying.

As far as the finish goes, I can only offer my own views. I have always been against refinishing of any sorts when it comes to classic cameras, especially CU's. As such, I never even looked into what the original finish was? If it is indeed shellac you can easily make a batch of liquid shellac and rub it onto the old finish. The alcohol will partially (or fully) dissolve the old shellac and mix the old and new together. I leave the finish as is and love the story it has to tell. Bare wood does get protected though.

In the same vein, the brass parts were originally painted that dark grey that most people seem to think is tarnished silver plate. If you absolutely need to have shiny brass, go for it. I'll take mine in the original grey, except for the one I have that is gold plated. Graflex would do almost anything for money ;-)

Enjoy it, but please leave it as original as possible...

Michael Roberts
30-Sep-2009, 21:58
Thanks Rich! We have a great hardware store in Boulder--McGuckin's--I'm sure they'll have the tightening knob if its a standard size.

Yeah, I would love to leave the finish as original as possible, so I'm looking for an alternative to sanding it down. Your suggestion of liquid shellac is a possibility. Also, the Formby's refinisher says it just takes off the old finish (I assume that means the shellac), doesn't need sanding, just wipe on and off, then apply tung oil. That sounds like it would bring the wood back close to original (can't be that easy, though, can it?).

Michael Roberts
30-Sep-2009, 21:59
Did they really paint the brass a dark grey?? Why???

RichSBV
30-Sep-2009, 22:27
Yes, it's painted. Only guesses could answer why. But as told to me, if memory serves, a new product at the time was Dupont's Duco laquer produced for automotive finishing. Since brass turns nasty colors after a while, it would normally be lacquered to preserve it's bright finish. Oddly, Gralfex decided to go with grey. No doubt they had some aesthetic in mind but who knows? They did want durability and they got that with auto paint. Since it was a hot item at the time, maybe it was also a selling point although I have never seen it mentioned in any ads?

Michael Roberts
1-Oct-2009, 06:17
Maybe the Depression had something to do with it....certainly sounds depressing.

RichSBV
1-Oct-2009, 21:34
On the other hand, if you're talking about a big camera used in the daylight where you have to look under a dark cloth and worry about stray light, wouldn't brite, shiny reflecting brass be a concern and distraction. Thinking of just functionality, dull painted non-reflecting brass would be much preferred over the shiny stuff. Okay, I like the looks of dark wood and shiny brass as much as anyone, but not on my cameras. Back in the day, I would have bought a CU ;-)

Jon Wilson
1-Oct-2009, 21:49
Pics of parts needed/missing:

Mike, let me know if you locate a replacement knob for the "3. missing knob for tightening second extension." I am missing that same part on my Century Universal.

Jon

Michael Roberts
2-Oct-2009, 01:46
Okay Jon. I'll try my local super hardware store this weekend. If that doesn't work, I'll try McMaster-Carr. Will let you know what I find (or not).

Rick, I agree. It may, probably did, look great when new. The alum rails aren't that bad looking now. But the brass on the back has oxidized so much mine looks black and pitted. I think the grey paint must have been much more attractive when new, as some folks have mistaken it for silver plating.

Picked up the Minwax Antique Furniture Refinisher last night; it seems to be the same formula as the Formby's--wipe on, wipe off. So I'll try it on the base (the least visible and most scarred-up part of the camera) as a test.

Michael Roberts
2-Oct-2009, 01:52
BTW, still looking for a pin for the back. If anyone has one on a spare back that's already missing parts, please let me know. If I can't find a replacement, I suppose I can put brass pins in the top and bottom of the gg holder instead.....

ic-racer
2-Oct-2009, 07:27
BTW, still looking for a pin for the back. If anyone has one on a spare back that's already missing parts, please let me know. If I can't find a replacement, I suppose I can put brass pins in the top and bottom of the gg holder instead.....

I think K&S would have a SAE sized brass rod to make a new pin there.

K&S also has the brass sheet you need to make the ground glass holder. I was also missing that piece : http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showpost.php?p=278463&postcount=22

In terms of the hardware, if I were doing it I'd keep it gray. I would probably find someone to powder coat the pieces (after I stripped and cleaned them). I think powder coat will get into the little spaces better than spraying.

Michael Roberts
2-Oct-2009, 08:04
Thanks ic-racer (and Rich) for your suggestions on finishing. One of the things that concerns me is whether a mix of naked aluminum and brass would look weird. OTOH, there are places on both the brass plates and the alum rails where metal slides over metal, the paint has rubbed off, and it just seems like a design flaw to me to think you could have two painted metal surfaces that slide. If I keep the alum rails the dark gray I'll need to either find a matching color to touch up the spots that have been scraped over the years or completely clean off the old paint then find as good a match as I can to restore. We'll see.

Just got a reply from Custom Bellows, so off come the old bellows, and into the box for a trip across the Pond (yay!).

RichSBV
2-Oct-2009, 12:02
Yes, that pin can be replaced with simple brass rod. I just measured one at roughly .1 inch or 2.58mm. Another at .096" and 2.43mm. I would guess a 2.5mm rod would work. A touch of glue to hold it in if loose...

That knob should be readily available at any decent hardware store. I picked up mine at the local, very rural at that) store. They had a selection of knurled brass knobs in various machine thread sizes so I bought them all from #4 through #8 just in case.

One thing to do with the CU's and those sliding areas under knobs is to ad a brass washer (also picked up at the local hardware store). I can't honestly say if washers were original to the camera but I do have some that do look original. The washers are just a good idea, help with the tightening/loosening up and sliding. Looking closely at my collector camera, I'm thinking the washers are original as they are the same color as the rest of the brass and well worn. Definitely for the knobs for the case slides.

The brass sheet works great for missing parts. I had to make a few of the case closer clasp things (do they have a name?) and top strap holders out of it.

Good luck with the new bellows. Last time I contacted them they couldn't do red which upset me a bit. And make sure you get your original stuff back. May come in handy some day.

Oh, a note about that top strap. The holders were originally held in place with rivets. I searched everywhere to find replacements and never did. I finally used #2 machine screws with up-sizing washers on the inside for strength. But watch out as the bellows comes very close to the top of the case and you don't want anything sticking down too far. I got away with a small nut and two washers and had to file the screw to the top of the nut to fit. Something in the back of my head is saying that the #2 may not have fot on one of them. Way back when I bought a collection of all avaiable sizes for restorations. I know one of the cameras had much smaller holes than the other one. Might pay to buy a few of different sizes if you go that way...

Michael Roberts
4-Oct-2009, 07:50
Disassembled the back last night.

1st pic--Started cleaning the brass the day before--before realizing (thanks to Rich) that all the brass had originally been painted gray--no doubt with leaded paint....

2nd pic--Confirming what Rich said--yes, gray paint everywhere--sorry, but I'm one of those guys that if I had a gray-dipped B&J, I'd strip it down to the maple and stain it:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/burke-james/restore8x10.html I don't think gray paint and view camera belong in the same sentence....

3rd pic--back hardware off

4th pic--oxidized versus unoxidized finish

Michael Roberts
4-Oct-2009, 07:55
Next:
1st pic: ugly, oxidized painted brass

2nd pic: my wife is a GENIUS--here's the name plate on the camera, before clean-up

3rd pic: here's the same plate after my wife cleaned it. The product is called Flitz Polish--for metal, plastic, and fiberglass ("safely cleans, polishes, and protects").

4th pic: camera back sans hardware

Next up: strip the old gray paint from the hardware and try the Minwax Antique Furniture Refinisher on the wood....
also, there's a crack on one side of the back that needs repairing....

ic-racer
4-Oct-2009, 18:21
I'l be following this thread. Thanks for posting, I love these projects!

John T
4-Oct-2009, 19:41
Michael,

I may have the part. However, I need to go through my boxes so it may take a little while. I'm up in Greeley, so if I find it, I'll let you know.

John

Michael Roberts
5-Oct-2009, 08:14
Thanks, John! That would be great. Since the end are finger-jointed, I'm uneasy about drilling to put a pin in that's not supported by a plate. I'll be out of town Wed-Mon btw, so no rush.

Michael Roberts
5-Oct-2009, 20:46
Mike, let me know if you locate a replacement knob for the "3. missing knob for tightening second extension." I am missing that same part on my Century Universal.

Jon

Finally made it to the hardware store today--got the missing knob for the second extension!

Thanks for the tip, Rich!

Jon, I picked up a spare for you. PM me your address and I'll get it in the mail to you.

1SharpMonkey
5-Oct-2009, 23:32
this is an awesome thread. all these photos and the play by play is so meaningful, especially to me because I've been considering an old Century as well, not once or twice but enough times that I'm seriously thinking I may put a bid on this one I see on that big auction site.

Michael Roberts
6-Oct-2009, 03:00
Thanks for the feedback. On my end, it's kind of like announcing you're going to get in shape and run a marathon or lose 20 pounds....once you put it out there, you've got to follow through or lose face. So knowing other people are looking over my shoulder means I can't just let it drop when I hit a snag. Also, having sent the old bellows off is an incentive to get the rest of the camera ready so I can just drop in the new bellows in a couple of weeks.

Working on the brass bits now; should have an update in a few hours.

imagedowser
6-Oct-2009, 06:37
Having one of these great boxes, in very avg shape, i'm going to do the same, using your exp as a jump off point/ref. Can't thank you enough. Bill

Michael Roberts
6-Oct-2009, 07:53
Okay, so two applications of Zip Strip to the painted brass hardware got off most of the paint, but underneath seemed to be a blackish coat--maybe a primer??

Anyway, here are the results...

Michael Roberts
6-Oct-2009, 08:04
I haven't had much success cleaning tarnished brass with steel wool, so my preferred method is to sand the tarnish off :eek: with very fine 220 grit sandpaper. Light sanding (so as not to gouge the metal) takes the tarnish off fast and leaves the metal with what to me is a nice, "brushed" look.

On another task, I made a template from the three sections of the old leather handle, and took the template to the shoe repair shop so they can make a replacement handle. Should be ready in a week or so.

3rd pic here is the new replacement knurled knob for the second extension.

So far, I've started cleaning the brass from the back of the camera and the brass base rail. I'm leaving the aluminum and the brass on the front standard for later so I don't get overwhelmed.

At this point, I'm strongly considering painting the aluminum parts a glossy black.

News note: thanks to Rich, using the serial number on the front inside of the base, I learned this camera was part of a batch of 100 started into production in November 1935....so probably assembled in 1936 (by my guess).

John Jarosz
6-Oct-2009, 08:12
This may be considered a dumb question: Are you sure those parts are aluminum? Back in 1935 aluminum was still considered pretty exotic. I'm surprised it would be used for camera parts that could easily be made from steel. Have you tried a magnet on them?

John

Michael Roberts
6-Oct-2009, 08:51
John, you are dead on. I was going on other people's descriptions of the camera. Just tried the magnet test--yes, this is definitely steel, not aluminum. There's not much steel compared to the amount of brass. So far the steel components consist of two oblong pieces that function as washers for the big brackets that connect the back to the base, rails for the second and third extensions, and supports for the front standard (these fit on the back uprights).

Michael Roberts
6-Oct-2009, 08:59
Having one of these great boxes, in very avg shape, i'm going to do the same, using your exp as a jump off point/ref. Can't thank you enough. Bill

Bill, thanks for the feedback. I've been a bit worried I might be monopolizing the air time, so I appreciate the encouragement to keep going with this....

Jim Michael
6-Oct-2009, 09:06
220 grit is awfully coarse. From a recent adventure polishing some aluminum, a good route to take might be 600 -> 1500 -> 2000 grit followed by jewelers rouge on a buffing wheel. Although I'd be a bit surprised if the black didn't come off just with the last step or two. Auto parts stores should have the 2000 grit wet/dry paper if your hardware store doesn't.

John Jarosz
6-Oct-2009, 09:13
Since they are steel, you could copper plate them or use black oxide. There are instructions all over the net on how to do it.

John

Michael Roberts
6-Oct-2009, 09:34
220 grit is awfully coarse. From a recent adventure polishing some aluminum, a good route to take might be 600 -> 1500 -> 2000 grit followed by jewelers rouge on a buffing wheel. Although I'd be a bit surprised if the black didn't come off just with the last step or two. Auto parts stores should have the 2000 grit wet/dry paper if your hardware store doesn't.

Jim, thanks very much for the tip. I'll check out the auto parts store next week when I return from Seattle.

Michael Roberts
6-Oct-2009, 09:43
Since they are steel, you could copper plate them or use black oxide. There are instructions all over the net on how to do it.

John

Interesting idea, John. finishing.com seems to have some easy to understand info. Might be a bit more complicated than I want to get into right now. OTOH, I could have a finishing shop do the work....I'll think on it.

ic-racer
6-Oct-2009, 11:05
I found these 4 different color combinations to choose from :)

ic-racer
6-Oct-2009, 11:06
If your leather strap replacement does materialize, these amp handles might work.

Michael Roberts
6-Oct-2009, 13:24
Great idea for the handles! I like no. 2.
I'm drooling over the 3rd finish job on the cameras....

Michael Roberts
7-Oct-2009, 04:33
Removing the hardware was easy--except for the handle brackets. These were held on with brads (pics 1 & 2). I left these until last--I was cringing at the thought of gouging the wood, and I knew I would have to do it. At least it was going to be on the inside where it wouldn't be visible....

I used the smallest precision screwdriver I could that was strong enough to bend the brad up once I got under it. After I got the end away from the wood, I used a small pair of jeweler's pliers to bend the split ends of the brads together. Then (pic 3) I used the old leather handle as a lever and to protect the wood as I pried the handle bracket off.

Not too bad after all--came out pretty cleanly.

Michael Roberts
7-Oct-2009, 04:36
I would like to reinstall the handle brackets with screws so if I ever have to do this again it won't be such a PITA. I'll have to find screws thick enough to hold in the pre-drilled holes but not too big for the holes in the handle brackets.
OTOH, brads are probably stronger....Another decision to make!

gevalia
7-Oct-2009, 05:15
Check out these guys. http://www.caswellplating.com/

I have used their kits for years. Good stuff, real easy, and they are very helpful. I've done triple chrome, black oxide, copper, nickel, and silver over plastic using their kits.

Ron

Michael Roberts
7-Oct-2009, 06:52
Thanks Ron!

gevalia
7-Oct-2009, 10:30
Thanks Ron!


I warn you, these kits are addicting. I started out plating car parts and found myself nickle plating every doorknob in a friends old house. I've got a nice patina on some copper flower hangers I plated a few years ago.

imagedowser
8-Oct-2009, 09:25
You'll notice the 3rd finish job has all the metal, including the steel gliders, chrome or nickle plated. Gives a nice comparison to the finish color.... very "pro" looking. Bill

ic-racer
8-Oct-2009, 16:33
I agree that third camera is nice. There are powder coat (ie paint) finishes in grays and silvers that would look similar. One potential advantage is that there would be less chance of one irreplaceable part ending up at the bottom of a tank at the plating facility.

Jim C.
8-Oct-2009, 22:15
I would like to reinstall the handle brackets with screws so if I ever have to do this again it won't be such a PITA. I'll have to find screws thick enough to hold in the pre-drilled holes but not too big for the holes in the handle brackets.
OTOH, brads are probably stronger....Another decision to make!

Have you considered threaded inserts to replace the handle brackets brads ?

McMaster has them down to 4-40 thread size, you would need to
enlarge the original brad holes to take the threaded inserts,
then you can use screws with a little thread lock, easy to remove
if in the future you need to replace the handle.

Jon Wilson
9-Oct-2009, 08:37
Have you considered threaded inserts to replace the handle brackets brads ?

McMaster has them down to 4-40 thread size, you would need to
enlarge the original brad holes to take the threaded inserts,
then you can use screws with a little thread lock, easy to remove
if in the future you need to replace the handle.


Mike, when I restored my Deardorff V8, I had the same PITA. I ended up going to the hardware store and picked up not wood screws, but a type of threaded brad, for the lack of a better term, which had a small bolt with an allen head on it which screwed into a a metal flange which inserted into the wood on underside of the back camera standard to hold the handle brackets. You might consider this approach.
Jon

ic-racer
9-Oct-2009, 10:35
a type of threaded brad, for the lack of a better term, which had a small bolt with an allen head on it which screwed into a a metal flange which inserted into the wood on underside of the back camera standard to hold the handle brackets. You might consider this approach.
Jon

The may be referring to a "T-nut" which seems like a good use in this situation.

Robert Hughes
9-Oct-2009, 11:26
I've used those t-nuts for years to mount PA and instrument speakers in cabinets. And they come in the requisite 1/4x20 thread also.

Jon Wilson
9-Oct-2009, 16:36
The may be referring to a "T-nut" which seems like a good use in this situation.


Precisely! Thank you for your much needed clarification of my feeble description!:o

I used a T-nut with a small bolt that had an allen head which seems to stay tighter and can be tightened easier than a typical Philips or straight head. Jon

RichSBV
9-Oct-2009, 21:09
You guys have missed the size of the replacements for the rivets. I originally posted in one of my previous comments that I used #2 machine screws. A bit of further thought and I remembered that the #2'a were far too large. I don't have one handy at the moment, but it was definitely either a #1 or #0 screw. I also have #00 but I don't think they went that small. As I remember, I had to use 2 different sizes due to hole variations in the cameras. It's very easy to simply use a machine screw with a nut & washer on the inside of the case. The hard part is the length. The easy way is to screw one in and mark it's length after installing the nut & washer. Take it out and cut it. Then cut the other 7 to match.

These small machine screws are readily available from places such as Micro Mark and Small Parts. They're cheap enough to buy more than needed in various sizes and come in very handy for other fixes.... And by the way, we're talking BRASS machine screws here. They're easy to cut and plenty strong enough for the application.

Jim C.
9-Oct-2009, 22:34
The threaded inserts I was referring to are not T-nuts which have a habit of falling out
if you remove and replace the screws often enough, they rely on the barrel of the T-Nut to
friction fit into a hole, the barbs on the flange just keep the unit from spinning as you
tighten the screw.

The image below are the inserts I was referring to , they thread into the wood and pretty much
stay put until you physically remove them or the wood rots way.
I believe the thumb screw rail extension female end of the rail for the Kodak 2D and possibly
the Century Universal and others probably use a similar type.
T-nuts would be a poor choice since the barbed flange of the T-nuts would overlap each other
because the brad holes are so close together, the threaded inserts may be a better choice, like
I had mentioned, McMaster has them down to 2-56 size machine screws ( which are available in brass )
and the 2-56 size threaded inserts require a .127" hole ( a little over 1/8" in dia ).

imagedowser
10-Oct-2009, 06:45
....and you would have a solution that will leave the camera closer to "orig".... the T nuts would have been ugly....

Jon Wilson
10-Oct-2009, 12:11
....and you would have a solution that will leave the camera closer to "orig".... the T nuts would have been ugly....

I don't think the T-nuts approach would be ugly for they are attached to underside of the rear standard where the rear portion of the bellows are attached. You don't see the T-nut. You only see the top bracket which holds the strap down and the screws which attach the handle brackets over the strap into the T-nuts.

Jon

Michael Cienfuegos
10-Oct-2009, 12:41
You guys have missed the size of the replacements for the rivets. I originally posted in one of my previous comments that I used #2 machine screws. A bit of further thought and I remembered that the #2'a were far too large. I don't have one handy at the moment, but it was definitely either a #1 or #0 screw. I also have #00 but I don't think they went that small. As I remember, I had to use 2 different sizes due to hole variations in the cameras. It's very easy to simply use a machine screw with a nut & washer on the inside of the case. The hard part is the length. The easy way is to screw one in and mark it's length after installing the nut & washer. Take it out and cut it. Then cut the other 7 to match.

These small machine screws are readily available from places such as Micro Mark and Small Parts. They're cheap enough to buy more than needed in various sizes and come in very handy for other fixes.... And by the way, we're talking BRASS machine screws here. They're easy to cut and plenty strong enough for the application.

I used brass #2 machine screws as replacement rivets for the handle of my 3x4 Graflex RB Series D. They are the same diameter, and except for the slot in the screw head they are pretty much the same size as the rivet heads on the original rivets. I thought of using some brass escutcheon pins as rivets, peening them into place, but I don't want to put that old wood into too much stress. I need to replace the leather handle on my 8x10 2D, I am thinking that the machine screws would be the best bet, but I appreciate all these different ideas, especially the threaded inserts.

Jim C.
10-Oct-2009, 23:48
I don't think the T-nuts approach would be ugly for they are attached to underside of the rear standard where the rear portion of the bellows are attached. You don't see the T-nut. You only see the top bracket which holds the strap down and the screws which attach the handle brackets over the strap into the T-nuts.

Jon

True the flange side would be hidden but the issue is the diameter of the barbed flange,
in the OP's situation T-nuts would not work, the threaded inserts maybe a better choice
depending on how much space there is between the holes.

Jon Wilson
11-Oct-2009, 07:10
True the flange side would be hidden but the issue is the diameter of the barbed flange,
in the OP's situation T-nuts would not work, the threaded inserts maybe a better choice
depending on how much space there is between the holes.

Good points. I did not realize that the thickness of the wood on the Century Universal camera is not as thick as the V8 Deardorff. I used the T-nuts on my V8 and I would agree they would not be the best item to use on the Century Universal.

Jon

r_a_feldman
12-Oct-2009, 08:53
Another option would be to use binder screw posts (sometimes called "chicago posts"). There are no barbs on the posts, so they will not mar the surface of the wood areound the hole. One example is at http://www.screwpost.com/product_info.php?cPath=38&products_id=119. These steel posts are 1/4" OD and threaded 10-24, so you can use different head styles. Black aluminum posts (http://www.screwpost.com/product_info.php?cPath=40&products_id=168) are 3/16" OD and threaded 8-32.

Only problem with the source in the links is they sell in boxes of 100 posts. Other places should have smaller packages.

erie patsellis
12-Oct-2009, 11:15
I would like to reinstall the handle brackets with screws so if I ever have to do this again it won't be such a PITA. I'll have to find screws thick enough to hold in the pre-drilled holes but not too big for the holes in the handle brackets.
OTOH, brads are probably stronger....Another decision to make!

Michael,
I would use the smallest T-nuts (4-40 or 6-32) without prongs, a good quality screw (I use aircraft grade hardware, as I have it already) from the top will secure it well, yet allow you to remove it should you need to.

erie

John Jarosz
12-Oct-2009, 11:37
I would use the smallest T-nuts (4-40 or 6-32) without prongs

I agree.

Michael Roberts
13-Oct-2009, 06:37
The threaded inserts I was referring to are not T-nuts which have a habit of falling out
if you remove and replace the screws often enough, they rely on the barrel of the T-Nut to
friction fit into a hole, the barbs on the flange just keep the unit from spinning as you
tighten the screw.

The image below are the inserts I was referring to , they thread into the wood and pretty much
stay put until you physically remove them or the wood rots way.
I believe the thumb screw rail extension female end of the rail for the Kodak 2D and possibly
the Century Universal and others probably use a similar type.
T-nuts would be a poor choice since the barbed flange of the T-nuts would overlap each other
because the brad holes are so close together, the threaded inserts may be a better choice, like
I had mentioned, McMaster has them down to 2-56 size machine screws ( which are available in brass )
and the 2-56 size threaded inserts require a .127" hole ( a little over 1/8" in dia ).

Just back from Olympic NP--had several great days photographing on the coast....

Thanks guys, for all the wonderful suggestions.

Jim, I'm checking McMasters for these, but haven't found one small enough yet. I'll keep looking.... BTW, the holes left from the bracket brads are 3/16 in., and the top piece of the cherry camera back frame is 1/4 in., so that's what I'm looking to fit.

Got to get caught up on the day job....

ic-racer
13-Oct-2009, 12:09
Jim, I'm checking McMasters for these, but haven't found one small enough yet. ...


Small t-nuts?
Dubro. http://www.rcplanet.com/Dubro_Blind_Nuts_p/dub606.htm

Bosaiya
13-Oct-2009, 16:40
Another option would be to use binder screw posts (sometimes called "chicago posts").

Also known as "sex bolts" which is a lot more fun to ask for at the hardware store.

Robert Hughes
14-Oct-2009, 06:48
Also known as "sex bolts" which is a lot more fun to ask for at the hardware store.
... to go along with those small blind t-nuts, of course ...:p

Bosaiya
14-Oct-2009, 06:50
... to go along with those small t-nuts, of course ...:p

Hey, it was cold out, okay? Everyone knows that things contract when it's cold!

Michael Roberts
14-Oct-2009, 11:38
You guys have missed the size of the replacements for the rivets. I originally posted in one of my previous comments that I used #2 machine screws. A bit of further thought and I remembered that the #2'a were far too large. I don't have one handy at the moment, but it was definitely either a #1 or #0 screw. I also have #00 but I don't think they went that small. As I remember, I had to use 2 different sizes due to hole variations in the cameras. It's very easy to simply use a machine screw with a nut & washer on the inside of the case. The hard part is the length. The easy way is to screw one in and mark it's length after installing the nut & washer. Take it out and cut it. Then cut the other 7 to match.

These small machine screws are readily available from places such as Micro Mark and Small Parts. They're cheap enough to buy more than needed in various sizes and come in very handy for other fixes.... And by the way, we're talking BRASS machine screws here. They're easy to cut and plenty strong enough for the application.

After thoroughly checking McMaster, I think Rich's solution is the way for me to go. I remeasured and the holes drilled for the original brads are only 3/32, not 3/16. McMaster doesn't have threaded inserts anywhere near small enough.

I think a 2-56 should fit nicely. I may add a small brass strip (painted black) on the underside to add further support--now that I've got all the hardware and bellows off, the 1/4in thickness of the back frame seems awfully thin to support the entire weight of the camera....

Thanks for all the suggestions on this point!

Michael Roberts
14-Oct-2009, 18:33
Got out the Minwax Antique Furniture Refinisher, the 0000 steel wool, and got to work stripping the old finish today. Here are some before/after pics.

It took a few tries to get the technique down. I finally worked out I needed to apply the refinisher with one saturated pad and immediately wipe off with a clean, dry one. This stuff dries fast!

I'm pleased--with a little more touch-up, I think I'll be ready to start applying tung oil to refinish!

(Still have to disassemble the front standard, and repeat the process on it, too.)

Michael Roberts
14-Oct-2009, 18:34
More before/afters...

Michael Roberts
14-Oct-2009, 18:36
Two more...

Michael Roberts
15-Oct-2009, 20:19
Okay, so here is what the 2d and 3rd extension rails--steel--originally painted a 1930s file cabinet/manual typewriter gray--look like when painted a glossy black. I left the bit where the front standard slides back and forth bare, 'cause any paint is just going to rub off anyway....

As much as I liked the 3rd finish job from above, I don't want the shiny metal bits to distract from the fine old wood on this camera. So, my present intent is to shine up the brass, and to repaint the steel bits in glossy black....

And, btw, the wood is still raw, no tung oil yet, and the brass rail still needs more cleaning.

Feedback??

Jim C.
16-Oct-2009, 00:11
The painted parts look chocolate brown to me on my monitor for some reason.

3/32 is a small hole, at that point I would have looked for some other type of threaded insert
but that's me ;) a 2-56 machine screw with a backing plate sounds good . I'm not sure how
OEM you want the restoration to be but if you use a brass backing plate I suggest tapping the
holes in the plate for the 2-56's and screwing the plate in from the underside with some wood
screws, that way if you ever need to remove the 2-56's you won't drive yourself nuts with a
loose backing plate.

Michael Roberts
18-Oct-2009, 08:17
Spent literally all day yesterday doing more old finish stripping and sanding, sanding, sanding. The more I sanded, the more the grain came out.

First pic shows supplies to get ready to strip the old finish. I used aluminum foil "boats" to pour up the stripper and soak the steel wool; easy to toss afterward.

Michael Roberts
18-Oct-2009, 08:20
The last photo above and the ones here are after wiping the dust off with Murphy's Oil Soap. I thought I might have to restain--the wood was looking very light--like pecan--after sanding. But the soap and water revealed a much better looking walnut finish, so I think I can go right to the Tung Oil finish coats on most of it. Still a little more sanding to do....it's interesting how much redder the wood looks with a flash (last pic)...

Michael Kadillak
18-Oct-2009, 08:53
A thing of beauty Michael. I know that it will make some marvelous images soon.

I am in the process of grinding my own ground glass. (hint hint).

Cheers!

ic-racer
18-Oct-2009, 12:54
Looking good!

Michael Roberts
20-Oct-2009, 15:05
Pics of parts needed/missing:

Many thanks to Eddie Gunks for sending me the missing spring pin I needed (plus three more and a couple of extra-large gg clips)--thanks Eddie!!!

Thanks also to John Jarosz for sending me a chrome plated gg clip--thanks John!!!

John T
20-Oct-2009, 17:58
Michael,

I'm glad you found the parts. I can't find the ones I was looking for.

John

Michael Roberts
23-Oct-2009, 09:13
I think I'm done with the wood (I was going to say "finished" but thought better of it...). I put on 7 or 8 coats of Tung Oil--the wood was so dry it just drank up the first four or five coats with little to show for it. (I guess I would be dry too after 75 years!) Finally, it wouldn't absorb anymore and the Tung Oil started to smear when I tried putting more on, so I stopped.

The wood has a slightly glossy, slightly satin finish. Color differences are due to some shots with/without flash.

Last weekend was all about the wood; this weekend will be all about the brass...lots and lots of brass on this camera....

Michael Roberts
23-Oct-2009, 09:14
Couple more...

imagedowser
10-Nov-2009, 06:35
Looking forward to seeing how it's going... you must be waiting for the bellows... That's always good for 4 weeks with shipping at a minimum...

Michael Roberts
12-Nov-2009, 08:29
I'm almost finished cleaning the brass and steel parts. I aimed for getting most of the old gray paint and tarnish off, but leaving a little here and there so the camera looks like what it is--an antique.

A few parts--the springs--are still showing some pitting unfortunately....

I left cleaning the brass screw heads and washers until reassembly, which I am starting to do now....

Michael Roberts
12-Nov-2009, 08:41
Here's the new handle!

I wound up (so far) going with #3 brass wood screws to reinstall the handle brackets...

I chose to go with black leather (instead of the original brown leather) to match the new bellows and glossy black painted steel parts.

Michael Roberts
12-Nov-2009, 09:17
Here's the gg frame with its new pins...
(thanks eddie!)

My first try at cleaning the old paint off the brass knurled knobs didn't go so well. My current thought is to try another paint stripper treatment, then really get after it with a wire brush. Does anybody have a better method for getting paint/tarnish from the nooks and crannies?

Also, the camera came with its original gg--the nice, thin 3/32 kind. But the gg has what appears to be rust spots--anybody know a good way to clean these off w/o scratching the glass? Would a razor blade scraper work best or a cleaner like acetone?

jb7
12-Nov-2009, 09:27
Looking great so far...

Michael Roberts
12-Nov-2009, 10:19
thanks joseph!

Jon Wilson
12-Nov-2009, 12:46
Mike, I did not go back thru the thread to look for the answer to my questions....:(
But, can you advise the process of removing the bellows where they attached to the rear standard? Was it a simple process or a tricky one? Thanks. Jon

Michael Roberts
12-Nov-2009, 13:46
Hi Jon,
It was very easy. In back, there are 2-3 screws on each of the four sides that hold the wood bellows frame to the inside of the camera back. Unscrew these and the frame slips right out.

Jim C.
12-Nov-2009, 20:42
Here's the gg frame with its new pins...
(thanks eddie!)

My first try at cleaning the old paint off the brass knurled knobs didn't go so well. My current thought is to try another paint stripper treatment, then really get after it with a wire brush. Does anybody have a better method for getting paint/tarnish from the nooks and crannies?

Also, the camera came with its original gg--the nice, thin 3/32 kind. But the gg has what appears to be rust spots--anybody know a good way to clean these off w/o scratching the glass? Would a razor blade scraper work best or a cleaner like acetone?

Looks to me that you got all the paint off, if there was paint on the knobs, what's
in your pictures looks more like tarnish/oxidation.
I soaked all my brass parts of my Kodak 2D's that I'm restoring in lacquer thinner
overnight, then they were subjected to a soak in Brasso, for about 5 min, then
I used a tiny brush to scrub the knurling and a cloth rubbing to get rid of the tarnish.

Don't use a razor on the frosted side of the GG !
you'll scrape back the roughness that makes it matte and you'll wind up with a
semi clear scratch mark. Try Lacquer thinner first, it may be varnish that inadvertently
got smeared on there, or just wash the GG.

Michael Roberts
12-Nov-2009, 21:21
Thanks Jim. I've got the knobs soaking overnight in paint thinner.

The frosted side of the gg seems fine; it's the smooth side that needs cleaning.

ic-racer
12-Nov-2009, 21:45
It is looking good!

Michael Kadillak
12-Nov-2009, 21:48
If the rust is on the back of the GG and not on the inside frosted side you should be able to take a razor to it and get it off. Could be old residue varnish.

Jim C.
12-Nov-2009, 21:51
Paint thinner is pretty slow acting and tame, lacquer thinner is aggressive, probably
your best bet to get it all off unless the paint is baked on enamel.

Looked at the picture of the gg stain and it sure looks like dripped stain or varnish,
at worse coffee spittle ;)

Where did you get the replacement leather handle ?
I'm thinking of reproducing the OEM strap with the embossing.

Michael Roberts
14-Nov-2009, 13:01
Jim, you were right about the paint thinner--not strong enough. So it was back to the paint stripper, wire brush and sandpaper. Looking better!

I got some of the rust off the gg with a razor blade. Turned out there was some on the ground side as well, that I haven't managed to completely get rid of. May try bleach next.

Jim, my old strap did not have any embossing--does yours? If so, what's it say?

I had my local shoe repairman cut the leather based on a template I brought him.

Jim C.
14-Nov-2009, 16:41
The brass parts look great now !

I'd try solvents first to remove the stain on the matte side, I don't think bleach will do
much.

I'm restoring a Eastman Kodak 2D not a Century, so the strap is embossed with the words - Eastman View and a border the shape of the strap. From the looks of it your Century strap has stitching but not any lettering that I can make out. Unless another member of the forum has a Century strap in better shape than yours, it'll be hard to tell if there was any embossed lettering.

Michael Roberts
15-Nov-2009, 17:09
Progress today--the front standard is back together!
I've attached a "before" for comparison.

I think when I finish this project--in addition to having a great looking camera--I'm going to be all set up for a new life of crime after sanding off all my fingerprints getting the paint off of over 150 tiny, tiny screw heads.

On second thought, I guess fingerprint ID is really old-fashioned, now it's all DNA-hair analysis. At least I haven't lost my hair over this project...yet.

Jon Wilson
15-Nov-2009, 18:16
Mike, your efforts definitely have created a "working" work of art. Having this same camera, i love its versatility and lightness compared to my V8. However, mine is not the sturdiest view camera. Is yours sturdy when extended? If not, what thoughts/suggestions do you have to firm it up for field work? Thanks. Jon

Michael Roberts
15-Nov-2009, 19:33
Hi Jon,
I can't comment based on using it in the field yet, but just from handling it and moving it around when fully extended, I was struck by the fact the weight of the camera is mainly in the base (which I think is mainly cherry, instead of the mahogany of all the rest of the wood), and the front standard. The front standard has an awful lot of brass attached to it--mainly the sliding plates underneath that allow L-R shift and swing.

So I was careful to pick it up with both hands under the base, and never with one hand under the front standard for fear of stressing the extension rails too much.

It's a much, much different camera from the 2D 8x10, which has been my primary camera for the past 3-4 years.

For stabilizing in the field, I would consider adding a 1/4-20 tripod/monopod socket underneath the front of the third extension if stability at max extension seems to be a problem. With a monopod under the front of the camera, I think it would be as stable as it could possibly be.

For myself, I think it will be fine as is. I've got an Ikeda Anba 4x5, which is also not the sturdiest camera, but I'm fine with it.

eddie
16-Nov-2009, 04:55
looks great. i just now realized you needed those spring pins for this restoration.

whos is making your bellows? i may get new ones for my camera as well. i usually use turner bellows becasue they make them fast and affordable but sometimes they do not squeeze down thin enough to fit into the closed box.

nice work! when can i send you mine to start working on? LOL

eddie

Michael Roberts
16-Nov-2009, 06:47
Hi eddie,
I went with Custom Bellows this time just for that reason. I had Turner Bellows make a new bellows for an 11x14 Empire State I restored a few years ago, and they were great to work with. I dealt with Joe Merrie, there, and can't say enough good things about that experience.

Let me finish mine first; I'm sure I'll do a much better job on yours with all I've learned from doing this one.;) (I think I spent over an hour yesterday trying to get the front rise/fall assembly back into place before I realized the problem was that I had the mounting plate reversed!)

I sent the old bellows off to CB on Oct. 2nd; it arrived Friday, the 9th. I'm expecting to hear back from Keith any day now that the new bellows is ready. Since I'm still working on reassembling, the timing should work out well.

Michael Roberts
16-Nov-2009, 07:19
Mike, your efforts definitely have created a "working" work of art. Having this same camera, i love its versatility and lightness compared to my V8. However, mine is not the sturdiest view camera. Is yours sturdy when extended? If not, what thoughts/suggestions do you have to firm it up for field work? Thanks. Jon

Jon, I had another thought about the stability issue. I've also recently switched from primarily using a Berlebach Report tripod to an older Crown #4. The Crown #4 is 1lb lighter, will hold a min of 18 pounds, and has a 6 inch diameter platform. The Berlebach I have has the ball head and only a 1 and 3/4 inch platform. It seems no matter how much I tightened the tripod to camera screw with a view camera at full extension (30 inches), there is inevitable wobble front to back on the smaller tripod head. (This is with the 2D which is very sturdy, and with an 11x14 with 36 inch long, 3/4-in square tubing aluminum rails that don't bend at all.) The Crown cost under $75 (I think I paid $46 plus shipping), and I really like it. Takes a little getting used to not having leg locks (sometimes I go back to the Berlebach for this reason--made a photograph this fall where I was up on a talus slope and had to put the tripod legs on top of three different boulders, each about 3-4 feet in diameter, with camera suspended about six feet above the rocks; I used the Berlebach for this one). I also have a vintage wood and brass tilting platform I can add to the Crown when I need to. About the same time I also found an older Ries with a massive 8 inch Photoplane tilt head. This sucker is heavy-9+ pounds for the tripod and 4lb for the head, but put an 8x10 view camera on top and it's as solid as can be.

So, some other options....

I also like that the CU extensions are steel and brass-reinforced wood. I think the steel may give more support than appears from the weight differential between the base and front standards.

One more thought--you might try tightening all the screws holding the steel and brass reinforcements and see if that tightens things up.

Rodney Polden
16-Nov-2009, 13:46
Mike, your efforts definitely have created a "working" work of art. Having this same camera, i love its versatility and lightness compared to my V8. However, mine is not the sturdiest view camera. Is yours sturdy when extended? If not, what thoughts/suggestions do you have to firm it up for field work? Thanks. Jon

There has been some previous discussion on this issue, Jon. The CU is a wonderful camera for its lightness and versatility, but in some circumstances (breeze! long lenses!) some additional rigidity/stabilisation would be a help. Some types of wind stabiliser kit have been discussed previously - there may even still be one commercially available, or a variant could be built from the basic idea, I guess

You might get some useful ideas from this page:

http://slalom.20megsfree.com/catalog.html

It seems like a rather bulky device, but it seemed to work well from what that particular Century Universal owner had found from using his camera. I'm thinking of making a simplified version of the brace for use with my CU.

Michael Roberts
16-Nov-2009, 15:47
A little more progress today--reassembled the spring back (before/after), and started adding hardware to the back frame.

Still looking for one brass gg clip--missing one on left side of gg. If you have a spare, please let me know. Thanks!

William McEwen
16-Nov-2009, 17:04
I'm starting to think you've been pulling our legs! You're really showing us pictures of two different cameras, aren't you? :) Nice work...

Michael Roberts
16-Nov-2009, 17:05
lol--thanks!

Jon Wilson
16-Nov-2009, 19:29
There has been some previous discussion on this issue, Jon. The CU is a wonderful camera for its lightness and versatility, but in some circumstances (breeze! long lenses!) some additional rigidity/stabilisation would be a help. Some types of wind stabiliser kit have been discussed previously - there may even still be one commercially available, or a variant could be built from the basic idea, I guess

You might get some useful ideas from this page:

http://slalom.20megsfree.com/catalog.html

It seems like a rather bulky device, but it seemed to work well from what that particular Century Universal owner had found from using his camera. I'm thinking of making a simplified version of the brace for use with my CU.

Rodney, that is a sweet brace setup. Gives me something to ponder..... :rolleyes:

Jon

Michael Roberts
17-Nov-2009, 05:24
Just heard from Keith--bellows are ready!

Michael Roberts
18-Nov-2009, 06:30
back side brackets are back in place
24 more tiny brass screw heads down
36 more coming up for the base brass rails...

Michael Roberts
18-Nov-2009, 23:11
Restored Century Universal (with incredible invisible bellows)....

Michael Roberts
18-Nov-2009, 23:13
I've actually got a little touch-up and fine-tuning to do, but got her put together this evening. Just waiting for the bellows now (it's on its way).

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions, and to everyone who has been following along!
-Michael

ps: I'll post an update when the bellows are installed.

jb7
19-Nov-2009, 02:00
Great job,looks fantastic-
Can't wait to see the bellows on it now-
though I'm sure you're even more impatient yourself-

big_ben_blue
19-Nov-2009, 12:25
Looks great.
Say, about how much time did you invest in this project? I got two (semi ugly) Universals sitting around, and both are just sceaming for a restore ... just have to find the time to do it

ic-racer
19-Nov-2009, 15:03
Very nice!

Michael Roberts
19-Nov-2009, 16:13
Looks great.
Say, about how much time did you invest in this project? I got two (semi ugly) Universals sitting around, and both are just sceaming for a restore ... just have to find the time to do it

Good question. I could probably do one faster now that I know what I'm doing (starting to eye my 2-D 8x10....). As best I can recall--

disassembly--1 to 2 hours

stripping old wood finish--I recall spending the best parts of a weekend on this, but if I did it over, I would invest in more sandpaper (use it, toss it, grab another piece--would make things go much faster). The process I used involved an antique furniture finish stripper, but it didn't take all the old finish off, so I ended up doing a lot of sanding. Let's call it 6 to 8 hours of steady work (note: this may translate to two days of going back and forth doing other things for breaks).

stripping old gray paint from brass--similar process as the wood, but with paint stripper. Another 6-8 hours of steady work. Small wire brush works wonders with knobs.

Adding new finish to wood--2 hours, but again this involved about 7 coats, so its 15 min here, come back in four hours, etc.

Painting steel parts--I cheated here and didn't clean off the old gray paint, just put a fresh coat of black laquer over it--1 hour (did 2-3 coats to get an even look).

Then there were a couple of trips to the hardware store for small knobs and screws to replace a few missing items, plus sandpaper, stripper, brushes, etc. Another couple of hours for me since I'm 30 min one way from town (I did combine this with other errands, so maybe not fair to add in).

So, 20 hours? This seems a bit low, given that overall it has taken six weeks. Probably 30 hours would be a better estimate. I know my wife has reached a point of feeling jealous of the camera, so that's probably a more important point than the actual time on the clock I put in to this. I guess the moral of the latter point is to lavish at least as much time on your spouse/partner (children, dogs, whatever) as on the camera you are refinishing. Life lesson.

Wow--you've got two of these? I would definitely start one if you can even spend only an hour or two hours each weekend on a restore, and just a little time during the week picking up supplies as needed. It's one of the most satisfying things I've done.

Michael Roberts
3-Dec-2009, 05:43
A package came Nov. 25th from Great Britain (while I was away visiting family in Georgia and Mississippi)....

The new replacement bellows from Custom Bellows surpassed my expectations--30 inches long, collapses to 1 inch and weighs only 13 oz including front and rear frame!

Michael Roberts
3-Dec-2009, 05:49
I thought installing the new bellows would be a piece of cake. I didn't count on how tough the fabric would be....

My first few attempts to force the wood screws through the fabric and the preexisting holes in the bellows frame were frustrating to say the least.

So, I finally hit on a three-step method--use a safety pin to find the hole location, use the point of an exacto knife to open a hole in the fabric, then push a finishing nail through the hole to widen it enough to fit in the wood screw. Piece of cake.

Michael Roberts
3-Dec-2009, 05:56
I also naively thought the bellows frame would just slide right back into place. No dice. Horrors of horrors--massive light leak gaps between the rear bellows frame and the camera back frame!

Michael Roberts
3-Dec-2009, 05:57
I panicked and emailed Keith at Custom Bellows to see if by some chance the new bellows should have been mounted on the outside of the frame (I couldn't recall if the old bellows had been or not, but there's an odd strip of leather tacked onto the outside of ONE side of the rear bellows frame). Keith told me the bellows I sent were not actually the original bellows and he mounted the new bellows as the older ones should have been mounted. Keith suggested taping the outside of the bellows frame for a better fit.

After studying on it--and especially the fact that the back frame of the camera has a built-in light trap at the bottom, but is smooth (no light trap) on the other three sides....

Michael Roberts
3-Dec-2009, 05:59
I decided to add a wooden light trap to the other three sides. 1/8 x 1/4 inch, painted flat black, and screwed in with 1/4 inch #1 brass wood screws.

BradS
3-Dec-2009, 07:46
nicely done.

Thanks for the photos and the story. I do appreciate the effort.

Michael Roberts
3-Dec-2009, 14:02
Thanks Brad! I managed to get the bellows back in last night. I want to paint the joint all around the bellows and back frame just for extra precaution against light leaks. We're heading to Moab at dawn tomorrow for the weekend. Hopefully I can post some photos of the CU from the field when I get back. I put it on the Crown #4 tripod last night, and it looks pretty awesome. Seems very stable to me. On the scale, it comes in at 9lbs, 1.5 oz.

Michael Roberts
17-Dec-2009, 15:56
The trip to Moab was a bust, weather-wise. That, and -19F temps and 50mph wind gusts at home have delayed me from getting the restored CU--with bellows(!)--out and about so far for any serious photographic endeavers. So, out to the yard today to snap some quick digipics for everyone who has been following this thread....

cdholden
17-Dec-2009, 16:01
Patience, grasshoppa.
The wind will lay down eventually. Keep your focus on the end result and you'll be rewarded by the good karma that will come from putting an old relic back into operation.
Kudos on the good work!

Chris
(soon to resurrect an F&S 12x20)

jb7
17-Dec-2009, 16:02
That looks great-
Health to wear it, as they say...

Michael Roberts
17-Dec-2009, 16:10
I did manage to get the CU out before dawn one morning in Moab. Canyonlands, Mesa Arch. I was the first to arrive, but then about 25 of my closest Chinese friends joined me. It was fun, and quite a challenge to work with the camera and 159mm Ex.WA Wolly while elbow to elbow with photographers on both sides and one dear lady crouched literally underneath my tripod.

Alas, clouds on the horizon at the crucial moments at and after sunrise made the trip to the arch moot. I inserted the filmholder, waited, then pulled it, moved out of the way to very grateful appreciation from the visitors, and packed up.

I'll need a few more setups and takedowns to feel as comfortable with the CU as I am with my old, trusty 2D. Much more fun ahead, I think!

ic-racer
17-Dec-2009, 16:12
Wow, that is really nice!

Michael Roberts
17-Dec-2009, 18:24
I just realized I never posted any shots of the camera closed, or the base, etc., after I finished the reassembly. So, here they are...

Michael Roberts
17-Dec-2009, 18:27
A pleasant surprise was how much smaller the Century Universal is compared to the Kodak 2D. I knew the CU would be about 25% lighter, but it is also about 3 inches shorter than the 2D when the 2D tripod block is attached. Takes up a lot less room in the backpack!

Rodney Polden
17-Dec-2009, 18:57
Well done, Michael. That truly is a beautiful job of restoration that you've accomplished.

johnschlicher
18-Dec-2009, 03:21
So___ Do you want to start re-storing cameras on the side?

I got a couple, I could send you!!!

But Really--NICE JOB, It Looks Great

Michael Roberts
18-Dec-2009, 07:10
Thanks Chris, Joseph, ic-racer, Rodney, John. This has been a really fun project and I'm glad it turned out so well. I'm excited about getting out and using the camera now, and I've been turning over ideas for how to do that--and how to use it even more than I thought I would when I started this (if that makes any sense).

John, I really enjoy cleaning up these vintage cameras, but I'd never want to do this as a business. For me, it's therapy--like gardening for some folks--so I wouldn't want to introduce deadlines and commitments into the process. I'd be willing to do the occasional restore for somebody else, but not full time. Thanks for the compliment!

Jon Wilson
18-Dec-2009, 08:59
Thanks Chris, Joseph, ic-racer, Rodney, John. This has been a really fun project and I'm glad it turned out so well. I'm excited about getting out and using the camera now, and I've been turning over ideas for how to do that--and how to use it even more than I thought I would when I started this (if that makes any sense).

John, I really enjoy cleaning up these vintage cameras, but I'd never want to do this as a business. For me, it's therapy--like gardening for some folks--so I wouldn't want to introduce deadlines and commitments into the process. I'd be willing to do the occasional restore for somebody else, but not full time. Thanks for the compliment!

Mike, you truly have done a wonderful job in restoring your beauty. As you may recall, I have this same camera and you were kind enough to send me a spare knob for mine which I truly appreciate. My CU is my "go to" rig when I want something in the 8x10 format and which is lighter than my V8.

In the event you find yourself in a position where you need more "therapy" just let me know and I will ship my CU to you.:D

Happy Holidays. Jon

seezee
23-Jan-2017, 14:23
Jim, my old strap did not have any embossing--does yours? If so, what's it say?

I'm about to embark on restoring a CU myself. The handle has an elongated lozenge ("diamond") embossing. It's made from 4 layers: 2 outside layers, then 2 skived pieces to add thickness to the business part of the handle. I have an inquiry with a guy who might be able to fabricate a copy but I also plan to see if the local shoe guy can do it.

Other parts I had to order were a missing #10-32 thumb knob, both of the tightening pieces for the front tilt (ordered #4-40 thumb screws, threaded rod & acorn nuts), and some small wood screws.

Michael Roberts
24-Jan-2017, 06:44
Wow, didn't expect to see this thread resurrected. It is one of the older posts that lost all the attached photos in one of the LFP server migrations....

I won't try to restore all of the in-process images, but here are some befores and afters for seezee and anyone else interested in Century Universals:

seezee, good luck with your restoration.

Michael Roberts
24-Jan-2017, 06:45
2 more "befores"...

Michael Roberts
24-Jan-2017, 06:47
restored camera porn...

Michael Roberts
24-Jan-2017, 06:50
done and done

John Kasaian
24-Jan-2017, 07:22
Dang, that's a beautiful camera!

seezee
24-Jan-2017, 12:44
seezee, good luck with your restoration.
Thanks! It's not so much restoration as "clean up the dust and get it in working order." I won't be stripping the finish (it's perfectly fine as is) or plating parts, for instance.

Liquid Artist
24-Jan-2017, 12:54
I will be working on my similar Century 8x10 soon and will be looking for an extension.
Does anyone know where I may find one?

I would probably even be happy buying a basket case camera if someone has one.

seezee
24-Jan-2017, 13:45
I will be working on my similar Century 8x10 soon and will be looking for an extension.
Does anyone know where I may find one?

I would probably even be happy buying a basket case camera if someone has one.

Your best bet is to place an ad in the WTB section. The prices on the big auction site are steep, and the pickings slim.

Jac@stafford.net
24-Jan-2017, 15:21
I will be working on my similar Century 8x10 soon and will be looking for an extension.
Does anyone know where I may find one?

I would probably even be happy buying a basket case camera if someone has one.

My Century 1 8x10 has an extension stamped with a number that matches the camera's bed number which suggests they are properly mated.

Correct me if I am wrong or addressing the wrong camera.

Liquid Artist
24-Jan-2017, 18:01
My Century 1 8x10 has an extension stamped with a number that matches the camera's bed number which suggests they are properly mated.

Correct me if I am wrong or addressing the wrong camera.
Thank you Jac,
I saw that number and was wondering if that was what it was for.
I think that I even saw the same number on an extension on ebay, that looked similar. However he didn't know anything about it. Plus I wasn't ready for it.

I should just take the chance when I see it again.

seezee
26-Jan-2017, 15:31
Thanks! It's not so much restoration as "clean up the dust and get it in working order." I won't be stripping the finish (it's perfectly fine as is) or plating parts, for instance.

So now I'm wondering if I should put the metal parts in the crock pot and boil the paint off, or leave them as is. Opinions, everyone? Grey paint, or shiny brass?

Liquid Artist
26-Jan-2017, 21:40
So now I'm wondering if I should put the metal parts in the crock pot and boil the paint off, or leave them as is. Opinions, everyone? Grey paint, or shiny brass?
With mine I just used brass polish. It did strip off the little remaining lacquer and did leave some deeply embedded marks. However I am happy with the way that it is turning out. Plus I plan on using it, so I don't even want it to look like a showroom piece: