Final check before making the leap

[John NYC]

Sorry this is long. If you want to, just skip down to the bullet point questions.

I'm going to make the leap into large format and see if I like it. I figure at worst, I won't and I won't do it that much later on, and in the process I will have learned something more about photography. But, I doubt that. As I have moved up (quickly) from DSLR to 35mm film to medium format (several different camera types), I've had more fun each time and use them all still; though medium format has so far been the most fun. I shoot several times a week, despite a busy schedule otherwise.

As I live in NYC, I think going 8x10 might be too much (though I am tempted because of some of the shots I've seen with it). I have read here and in other places it takes a lot to cart 8x10 around. So, I am thinking 4x5 with regular sheet film, fuji instant films for checking shots and learning and possibly a panoramic 120 back, as I am already invested in 120 anyway.

I plan on shooting things that don't move: urban and rural landscapes both broad and close up, some still life indoors, some architecture (maybe architectural features rather than whole buildings), maybe an environmental portrait or two, etc. I have my Hasselblad and 150mm that covers portraits nicely, so up-close portraits are not something I'd need to do in 4x5 right away. I will shoot in color and b&w and develop at a local lab (for now even for b&w) here in NYC.

Right now I am leaning towards new equipment. I've bought all my other film camera equipment used, and I'd really like to have something new that I can maintain to my own standards. So, I'm considering the Shen Hao HZX-45IIA with a Rodenstock APO-Sironar-S 150mm/5.6. I already have a Rodenstock focusing loupe, a Sekonic 758DR and and Epson V750 scanner. I'm planning on buying from Badger Graphics.

So, a couple questions if someone will be so kind...

- Who should I talk to at Badger?

- Will the 6x17 roll film back work well with this lens? Or will I need something with a bigger IC?

- I'm not into splitting hairs, but would like a final check that this would be a fantastic beginner setup... or not... or if there are any gotchas with these choices that won't work out or that I might regret after I know more in three months of use?

Thanks in advance. I've loved reading this forum so far, and I must say it is one of the most civil and gracious message boards of any I've ever visited on any subject matter.

John

[venchka]

If it's not too late, a jogging stroller makes fast work of moving a lot of gear. Even 8x10. I have a friend who uses one for a big metal case full of RB67 gear, tripod, etc.

Good luck! Show us the photos.

[John NYC]

If it's not too late, a jogging stroller makes fast work of moving a lot of gear. Even 8x10. I have a friend who uses one for a big metal case full of RB67 gear, tripod, etc.

Good luck! Show us the photos.

Funny idea. Forgot to add I will be traveling with this also!

[Ed Richards]

I do not think that back is going to fit on your camera, so the lens coverage is a secondary issue. You are probably going to need a 5x7 camera for that back. If you want a lens to use with the 6x17, pick a slightly longer normal. 180mm is very nice. Not even that noticably longer on the GG, but plenty of extra IC for movements, and plenty for the 6x17.

[venchka]

Many folks around here use strollers. They go on planes too.

[Gem Singer]

Talk to Jeff at Badger.

A 6X17 roll film back will not fit a 4X5 camera. However, it will fit a 5X7 camera.

A 6X12 roll film back is probably the largest you can use for 4X5. The 150 will work okay for 6X12.

However, a 180 or 210 will give you more coverage, allowing greater movement capability.

[Pete Roody]

1 lens and 1 camera is a good starting point.

haven't seen the shen hao but you might want to take a look a the chamonix before deciding. a few ny'ers have them and they may chime in.

it is not that hard to get around with lf gear. once you try a bigger lf format, the smaller ones seem even more portable. that said, 4x5 is versatile if you want to travel by air. i fit my entire 4x5 kit with tripod , 5 lenses, quickload holder, and plenty of film in a medium sized backpack that i carry on the plane.

[John NYC]

This is the Shen Hao 6x17 roll back for 4x5 I was talking about.

https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=123

[Ron Marshall]

I have only purchased one lens new, and I can't tell it apart from my other gear. Most of the LF gear I have encountered has been very well cared for.

Used gear now is a bargain; it gives you the option to try and sell without a loss if you find you prefer another focal length etc.

[John NYC]

By the way, I find it a little freaky that 2 of the 3 people who have replied to me thus far are from Texas, which is where I am from originally.

[Bill_1856]

Before going the LF route, I suggest that you take your Hasselblad and buy (or rent) a very large, heavy tripod, and spend a week or two shooting only with the 80mm lens and keeping your camera always on the tripod, even when you're carrying it. If you're not frustrated out of your mind by then, get the LF stuff.
Incidentally, since you're in NYC why aren't you shopping at Lens and Repro (which is almost a national treasure, though their prices can be a little steep)?

[John NYC]

Before going the LF route, I suggest that you take your Hasselblad and buy (or rent) a very large, heavy tripod, and spend a week or two shooting only with the 80mm lens and keeping your camera always on the tripod, even when you're carrying it. If you're not frustrated out of your mind by then, get the LF stuff.
Incidentally, since you're in NYC why aren't you shopping at Lens and Repro (which is almost a national treasure, though their prices can be a little steep)?

Good suggestion. Maybe I will try that tripod exercise.

Does Lens and Repro sell new equipment? They don't seem to on their website. As I stated in my original post, I have bought all my camera gear used to this point and would like something new.

[Steve Barber]

For the 6x17 back, with a 4x5 camera, the 150mm lens is a little long. I liked a 120mm best with that. Also, with a 150mm using that back, you are at or near where you will start to vignette and have the width of the image limited by the size of the 4x5 back. If you only want one lens and not two, you might compromise with a 135mm. I think that may also be more usable for city scenes than the 150mm using the 4x5 back.

[ki6mf]

I have the Shen Hao with the Rodenstock 150 that Badger sells as a kit. For 4x5 its a great set up. I cant speak to the panoramic back as I don't shoot that format. Badger is very reputable and their LF set up for the 4X5 is a great piece or equipment. Badger and Midwest Photo stock Shen Hao and that is one of their advantages. If you want parts they stock them and there is no waiting for a order to be consolidated and shipped from over seas. You may want to check out the 5X7 with a 4X5 reducing back as this gives you the 4X5 option too and may also take care of the panoramic requirement. Badger will tell you if this is possible. 5X7 is a better format for large format in terms of enlargements provided you can get the enlarger and other accessories, which will cost more $$$$ than 4x5 gear, to print should you set up at home!

[jeroldharter]

...
Incidentally, since you're in NYC why aren't you shopping at Lens and Repro (which is almost a national treasure, though their prices can be a little steep)?

Hey, there is nothing wrong with Wisconsin (Badger)!

I second the Hasselblad on the trip exercise. If large format is meant for you, then you will wish you had movements on on the Hasselblad.

[venchka]

It gets more freaky. We know each other. I bought a nice 4x5 Zone VI system and 180mm Nikkor lens from Eugene.

[John NYC]

It gets more freaky. We know each other. I bought a nice 4x5 Zone VI system and 180mm Nikkor lens from Eugene.

Eugene? Is this a Eugene I know in NYC?

[venchka]

I'm currently doing the Hasselblad exercise. Backward. I hauled my Zone VI around for a year before the Hasselblad came into my life. The Zone VI is feeling neglected.

[venchka]

Eugene? Is this a Eugene I know in NYC?

He lives in Texas, north of Dallas.

[John NYC]

He lives in Texas, north of Dallas.

No, I think you might have the wrong John then. I'm going to turn on PM if I have that off and you can PM me so we can figure that out.

[Robert Hughes]

Another possibility is to go LF handheld with a press camera. Get a Speed Graphic and go to town, Weegee style!

[venchka]

If it's not too late, a jogging stroller makes fast work of moving a lot of gear. Even 8x10. I have a friend who uses one for a big metal case full of RB67 gear, tripod, etc.

Good luck! Show us the photos.


Talk to Jeff at Badger.

A 6X17 roll film back will not fit a 4X5 camera. However, it will fit a 5X7 camera.

A 6X12 roll film back is probably the largest you can use for 4X5. The 150 will work okay for 6X12.

However, a 180 or 210 will give you more coverage, allowing greater movement capability.


By the way, I find it a little freaky that 2 of the 3 people who have replied to me thus far are from Texas, which is where I am from originally.


It gets more freaky. We know each other. I bought a nice 4x5 Zone VI system and 180mm Nikkor lens from Eugene.


Eugene? Is this a Eugene I know in NYC?


No, I think you might have the wrong John then. I'm going to turn on PM if I have that off and you can PM me so we can figure that out.

I'm one of the 2 guys from Texas. Eugene (Gem Singer) was the other. We know each other and have done business together. Neither of us are in NYC. Clear as mud?

[Nick_3536]

You don't mention budget.

I'd lean towards the Shen 5x7 camera and the matching 6x17 back.

Why?

Better camera. Cheaper back. So the total cost isn't much higher. If you later want to shoot 4x5 it'll take a 4x5 reducing back and still not be much bigger or heavier then the 4x5. It'll go wider with the 6x17 back mounted. Or longer for that matter.

[rugenius]

There is an additional camera back attachment/ adapter that will allow for the image circle, or "cone" to expand past the 4x5 inch film periphery to allow the use of a 6x17 cm roll film back. This is available many places such as Badger Graphic.
That item is approx $595 new
See this link for comments:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/shen-hao-6x17.html

I personally would choose to limit the addition to 6x12 format Graflex compatible roll backs made by Horseman, Calumet, etc,...
These backs are widely available in the used market.
If you want all of that extra weight on the rear of a 4x5" format camera you might as well choose to go with a 5x7" field camera and then use the 4x5" reducing back.
This is a much more versatile setup for the larger panorama while sacrificing nil weight in comparison to the DAYI attachment to your proposed Shen Hao.

Anyway,
My2Cents...
Bill

[redrockcoulee]

There is not a lot of savings in buying a used newish large format camera so if you want to get a Shen Hao you might as well go new if that is what you want. I bought mine used three years or so but have followed some of the prices and used sell for more than new when I got mine. Lenses are a different story and one changes one's prespective of which focal lenghts or sizes and used can be much cheaper than new. For what you mention the 180 might be a good starting lens. I have 90, 150 and 210 and many times I think that the 180 instead of the latter two would have been a better choice knowing what I know now.

I too am one whose large format has taken a second seat to a Hasselblad and think the tripod idea is good however the 'blad on a tripod is still so much easier and quicker than LF. The advantage of LF is it alows not only movement but so many other options that MF does not such as the old type of lenses, pinholes, paper negatives etc.

The 5X7 option although a bit more expensive will give you a much larger negative and a less square one as well. My first LF camera was (still is) an older 5X7 with a 4X5 reducing back and it was only after owning it for more than a decade that actually bought 5X7 film as like the squarer format and convinence of 4X5 better.

Good luck and enjoy your journey into LF

[photographs42]

John,
I think you are on the right track. I used 4x5 for 18 years before moving up to 5x7 and I wouldn’t go back. But I only do B&W and film choices are limited with 5x7. I never used a 150mm on 4x5 or 5x7. I use a 300mm more than any other (and I have a lot of lenses) and that is true with both formats.

Just thought you might like an opinion from some state other than Texas. Wait a minute; I grew up in Fort Worth. Sorry!
Jerome

[pocketfulladoubles]

I'd forget about the 6x17 back and get another lens instead. I have a 4x5 and never wish I had a roll film back. If I need that aspect ratio, I just use cropping guides on the ground glass. You get about half the final area after cropping on the 4x5 as compared to the 6x17, i.e. not much of a difference, and less weight to carry. That 150mm is a very fine lens, but honestly a 150 is the least used lens I have. I'd rather carry a 90mm and something in the 210-250mm range instead. There are fewer options in 5x7 film, the equipment is heavier and more expensive, and again you can crop and enlarge and you're only about half the area to start with.

[John NYC]

I'm one of the 2 guys from Texas. Eugene (Gem Singer) was the other. We know each other and have done business together. Neither of us are in NYC. Clear as mud?

Gotcha. When you said this. "It gets more freaky. We know each other." I took that to mean that you and I knew each other.

[John NYC]

I'd forget about the 6x17 back and get another lens instead. I have a 4x5 and never wish I had a roll film back. If I need that aspect ratio, I just use cropping guides on the ground glass. You get about half the final area after cropping on the 4x5 as compared to the 6x17, i.e. not much of a difference, and less weight to carry. That 150mm is a very fine lens, but honestly a 150 is the least used lens I have. I'd rather carry a 90mm and something in the 210-250mm range instead. There are fewer options in 5x7 film, the equipment is heavier and more expensive, and again you can crop and enlarge and you're only about half the area to start with.

I did a bunch of reading on this site for weeks now. It seems that many people recommend either a 135, a 150 or a 210 to start.

But from pictures of landscapes I've seen, clearly 90 is a great choice.

So, this is the kind of thing I am asking here. If I buy the 150 because that is what you are supposed to start with, am I going to hate it in just a little while? I should add that I love the 80mm and 150mm on my Hasselblad, and on 35mm I use mainly a 35mm and an 85mm lens (and I don't like it when the 35mm turns into effectively a 50mm-ish lens on my D90).

Glad I made this post because some of these responses are getting me thinking maybe I am not ready for the leap after all. I am pretty happy with medium format, but it is more of wanting to learn about movements and the slow pace and consideration that is making me want to try large format.

John

[Bob Salomon]

John,

Since you are in NYC why not go over to FotoCare, Ltd and rent a camera or two to see how you like it?

[John NYC]

You don't mention budget.

I'd lean towards the Shen 5x7 camera and the matching 6x17 back.

Why?

Better camera. Cheaper back. So the total cost isn't much higher. If you later want to shoot 4x5 it'll take a 4x5 reducing back and still not be much bigger or heavier then the 4x5. It'll go wider with the 6x17 back mounted. Or longer for that matter.

Budget is not that important, but that said, I don't see any reason to buy an Ebony. I'd rather blow the bigger bucks on glass.

Re: you're 5x7 comment... Interesting idea! And it would take away one aspect of learning large format for the beginning phase, which is the hassle of sheet film. What (single to start) lens would work good with a setup like that.

[John NYC]

John,

Since you are in NYC why not go over to FotoCare, Ltd and rent a camera or two to see how you like it?

Rental is a possibility, but it is likely I'd want to try it for an extended period of time, at which the rental ends up increasing the cost of ownership significantly.

[John NYC]

There is an additional camera back attachment/ adapter that will allow for the image circle, or "cone" to expand past the 4x5 inch film periphery to allow the use of a 6x17 cm roll film back. This is available many places such as Badger Graphic.
That item is approx $595 new
See this link for comments:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/shen-hao-6x17.html

I personally would choose to limit the addition to 6x12 format Graflex compatible roll backs made by Horseman, Calumet, etc,...
These backs are widely available in the used market.
If you want all of that extra weight on the rear of a 4x5" format camera you might as well choose to go with a 5x7" field camera and then use the 4x5" reducing back.
This is a much more versatile setup for the larger panorama while sacrificing nil weight in comparison to the DAYI attachment to your proposed Shen Hao.

Anyway,
My2Cents...
Bill

Yes, another poster also suggested the 5x7. Between this and the two "hasselblad on a tripod experiment" people, I'm more confused than ever and realize I'm going to have to think on it some more.

Thank everyone for your help. Much to chew on!

[Bob Salomon]

Rental is a possibility, but it is likely I'd want to try it for an extended period of time, at which the rental ends up increasing the cost of ownership significantly.

Ask them.

[pocketfulladoubles]

I did a bunch of reading on this site for weeks now. It seems that many people recommend either a 135, a 150 or a 210 to start.

But from pictures of landscapes I've seen, clearly 90 is a great choice.

So, this is the kind of thing I am asking here. If I buy the 150 because that is what you are supposed to start with, am I going to hate it in just a little while? I should add that I love the 80mm and 150mm on my Hasselblad, and on 35mm I use mainly a 35mm and an 85mm lens (and I don't like it when the 35mm turns into effectively a 50mm-ish lens on my D90).

Glad I made this post because some of these responses are getting me thinking maybe I am not ready for the leap after all. I am pretty happy with medium format, but it is more of wanting to learn about movements and the slow pace and consideration that is making me want to try large format.

John

There's nothing wrong with the 150mm. I just don't tend to use it as much, because I feel it looks a little "plain" with respect to DOF and perspective. For the price of a new Sironar-S 150 though, you can get two lenses on KEH or similar in excellent (virtually new) condition. I say 90mm (as opposed to a 65mm or 75mm) because it will still allow you to use some movements. I say 210 to 250 because it can compress perspective in generally a Copal 1 shutter, and is nice for portraits.

[John NYC]

After more thought and a dose of experimental tripod carrying, I decided to go ahead and test the waters of LF, but with a modified version of what I had first posted here.

I ordered a Shen Hao HZX 4X5-IIA and Polaroid back from Badger Graphic, as planned. Decided not to get a roll back. For the lens, I broke with my idea of getting something new, and I ordered a used Geronar 210mm f/6.8 from KEH in EX+ condition for $165. I know the lens is not the latest, nor was it ever the greatest, but it seems from reading this and other forums it can work nicely if used within its limitations (that means shooting landscapes at f/16 or f/22 or portrait work). And for that price, even if I end up only learning with it, it is OK with me.

I'm pretty happy with all this from a theoretical standpoint; it should all get here next week, so we'll see how that plays out.

Thanks, all, for your advice.

John

[Kuzano]

By the way, I find it a little freaky that 2 of the 3 people who have replied to me thus far are from Texas, which is where I am from originally.

While it may be interesting to find out how many Texans use large cameras, you should really look into the size of the cameras used in Alaska. Only ULF allowed.

[Deepak Kumar]

I ordered a Shen Hao HZX 4X5-IIA and Polaroid back from Badger Graphic, as planned. Decided not to get a roll back. For the lens, I broke with my idea of getting something new, and I ordered a used Geronar 210mm f/6.8 from KEH in EX+ condition for $165. I know the lens is not the latest, nor was it ever the greatest, but it seems from reading this and other forums it can work nicely if used within its limitations (that means shooting landscapes at f/16 or f/22 or portrait work). And for that price, even if I end up only learning with it, it is OK with me.





Nice decision, as it takes time to get used to LF & contrary to advice that you are going to like the focal lenths equilent to smaller format prefered one more is not always true.

Learning with more than one lens is always better but start with one lens. Its takes time to be large format photographer.

I personally like croping to roll film back. As it becomes a mess to figure out which back and holder have what film (I case you use both color & B/W)