Wood in extreme heat

[gainer]

I have what I hope is a fairly simple question.

I've been using a Toyo 45AX in the desert -- with temperatures sometimes reaching beyond 110. Just being outside is tough, but the metal field camera and dark cloth make it seem overwhelming sometimes. I'd imagine that a wooden camera would absorb less heat than my Toyo, and I'm wondering if certain woods/wooden cameras hold up better in severe temperatures than others? I'm particularly interested in the non-folding Ebonys, but don't know how they'll hold up in extreme heat (no, not talking fire :) ).

Any practical advice about wooden cameras (4x5) and heat/low humidity would be greatly appreciated.

[IanG]

It's really a case of what sort of heat, dry or humid.

I use my Rosewood Wista in Turkey the heat here gets up to 42/43°C and is a dry heat, but in all honesty it's rare to be out photographing at the peak temperatures.

My Crown Graphic probably gets more use at peak temperatures, they are just some kind of cheap box wood, I've had no problems with either camera in the heat.

Ian

[Santo Roman]

Since most wood cameras are fire-cured I would assume they will stand up to the heat. At least that's the theory I'm sticking with.

santo

[Gem Singer]

Both a metal and a wooden camera under a black dark cloth will absorb heat and become uncomfortably warm in desert conditions.

Not a good idea to overheat any type of camera, especially one with a bellows.

A dark cloth that has a white or silver outer surface (like the Harrison dark cloth) will reflect heat and keep the camera slightly cooler.

However, it's not only the camera that is affected by the desert heat. More than likely it is the photographer.

[ki6mf]

Aside from the question of materials I have seen a dark cloth with silver mylar that would help reflect the sun away from you when in use! I don't know who makes them!

[Joanna Carter]

How about an ABS camera from Walker Cameras (http://www.walkercameras.com/cameras.html) ; they can survive being submersed into boiling water without distortion.

[Ed Richards]

This might be a place where a reflex view finder or focusing bellows, i.e., a view that attaches to the back of the camera so you do not need to use a dark cloth, would help a lot. I am envious - I often work in the mid to upper 90s, but in high humidty. I would happily trade for that dry heat.:-)

[JohnGC]

If you not working too far from your car, you could use a collapsible 8x8 canopy for directed shade. They sent up in a minute, can be moved easily, and can keep all your gear (and you) a little cooler.

[John Kasaian]

Hmmm....you guys got me thinking....could I convert an old briar pipe into a mini-pin hole camera?? :D

[David Karp]

Hmmm....you guys got me thinking....could I convert an old briar pipe into a mini-pin hole camera?? :D

You turkey. ;)

[Donald Miller]

I live and photograph in Arizona. The problem is one more of the effects of low humidity on glue joints in wood. I have not had a camera failure with either my 4X5 or my 5X7 but I did have a Martin Guitar suffer damage because of the low humdity. No matter if the wood has been cured before assembly the constant low humidity of 5-8% can dry wood far beyond normal curing. With the further drying the wood shrinks. I store those wood items that may be affected with portable humidifiers now.

[Gene McCluney]

Wooden cameras were made and used all over the world, (and still are) without a hitch, in every type of climate. In times past there were "tropical" versions of some cameras, but this just meant that they were bare, varnished wood, and not covered in leather or leatherette, which could mildew and rot in extreme conditions. I am unaware of any current modern wooden view camera that has leather cover though.

[gainer]

Wow, that'll teach me to go to sleep! :) Many thanks for all the thoughtful, fast responses!

IanG -- Same for me. I've only been working in this kind of heat recently, but it didn't take much handling of the black metal toyo to make me start wondering about alternatives.

Gem -- You are absolutely right. I'm just looking for ways to minimize the bits I can control. One of the reasons for think about a non-folding camera is so that I reduce the set-up time. For what I'm doing I don't need all of the movements...

Ki6mf -- My dark cloth is a heavy fabric one with white on one side. I hadn't though about the part of the equation much, but silver sounds like a good idea.

Ed -- I bet the person who invented focusing bellows had similar issues to mine -- I've never used one, but it looks like it would be interesting to try out. I was joking with someone I was photographing last week that at least the heat was 'dry', they live more or less exposed to the environment year round and didn't smile with me... :)

Joanna -- Walker might be a good option but I've never handled one. I bet the ABS would be more comfortable than hot metal, but wonder how it would comare to wood. Do you have experience with Walker?

John -- you are definitely onto something :)

Donald & Jean -- you hit the nail on the head. I'm aware that the heat can affect certain elements of the construction of a camera, and wondering how to minimize those affects (both short and long term) -- partly by selecting the right materials from the beginning, and partly by proper care once I get whatever I ultimately choose. Thanks again...I appreciate hearing everyones thoughts!

[Glenn Thoreson]

Hmmm....you guys got me thinking....could I convert an old briar pipe into a mini-pin hole camera?? :D

Hmmmm. the answer is yes, of course, but why would you want to do that to a pefectly good pipe? :D :D

[Donald Miller]

If you decide on wood as the camera material, I would think along the lines of storing the camera apart from photo excursions in an enclosed case (as opposed to a bag). I would plan on providing a souce of moisture inside the enclosed case. This could be as simple as a plastic food storage container with holes punched in the lid and a water soaked cloth inside the container. Try to keep the RH at between 45 - 55%. Don't store your lenses in the same case since the low RH of the ambient air is wonderful sofar as prevention of fungus formation.

Donald Miller

[Ed Richards]

Isn't the ebony wood in the Ebony cameras treated with an oil? If they started with dry wood, then it should not have problems in dry heat. In the humid areas, they might swell a little because there is always room for more water. I would be more concerned about changes in climate than the dryness - it would seem that going from dry to 50% humid enviroment would work the joints to faulure by constant swellng and shrinking.

[Santo Roman]

Hmmm....you guys got me thinking....could I convert an old briar pipe into a mini-pin hole camera?? :D

Depends on the briar. Better make sure those walls are think, really good grain and birdseye will always help. Now you just need to find film that will fit or cut some.

santo

[Vaughn]

How about an ABS camera from Walker Cameras (http://www.walkercameras.com/cameras.html) ; they can survive being submersed into boiling water without distortion.

Boiling water is only 100C. A black metal camera in the sun w/ air temps of 40C might exceed that of boiling water.

Vaughn

[Bosaiya]

You turkey. ;)

Wouldn't that be meerschaum?

[raucousimages]

Small beach umbrella and a 2 Ft piece of rebar. Drive the rebar into the ground and place the tube of the umbrella over it. Place it between the camera and the sun. I live in a high desert and shoot in Death Valley when I can so I know what you mean about hot cameras. It is a bit more work but in the mid day sun in summer it really works.

My wife's Wista works fine in the heat even when my Toyo is almost too hot to touch.

[imagedowser]

I'm a classic & acoustic guitar and Lute/Oud maker, also... Every builder I know keeps their work/wood storage area under humidity/temp control. I can't imagine camera makers aren't just as careful .... the size of the structural members in a camera are not as prone to instability as, say, a guitar top...thin and wide. Age and stability go hand and hand ... The high quality camera makers brag about the age of the wood they use..Don hit it on the head 45 -55% is ideal... I recommend for guitar cases, the use of a "Plastic traveling soap dish" with holes drilled in the top, add a damp sponge inside and voila, humidity! Keep it in a light colored case with your humidity sensitive camera, film and holders and out of direct sun or shield it in white.. All the wood types used by camera makers, have one thing in common, high stability under stresses due to environmental and mechanical demands. Use common sense. Email me with any questions... Bill

[D. Bryant]

My experience with both metal and wooden view cameras in dry desert heat (105F -114F) is that I've never experienced any issues. However this was only for a period of weeks at a time not months or years.

My 2 cents,

Don Bryant

[RichardRitter]

The camera will be ok. The wood in my sauna goes to temps of 185 degrees and is ok.

What about the lenses? The adhesive that holds the lenses together and the lubricant?

Film, check the manufacture info a lot of film starts fogging at 110 degrees.

[gainer]

These posts are reassuring. For my purposes I'm mostly looking for a more 'comfortable' way of working than I currently have, and making a switch from metal to wood seems like a good first step. If I end up in places where my lenses start to come apart I hope someone sends help! :-) Thanks again for all the thoughtful feedback - lots of informed experiences and practical advice!

[Michael Cienfuegos]

These posts are reassuring. For my purposes I'm mostly looking for a more 'comfortable' way of working than I currently have, and making a switch from metal to wood seems like a good first step. If I end up in places where my lenses start to come apart I hope someone sends help! :-) Thanks again for all the thoughtful feedback - lots of informed experiences and practical advice!

If your lenses start coming apart, your body may be in for some serious hurt. Phoenix in the summertime is not the best environment for man, beast or camera. :)

[toyotadesigner]

Antequera in Andalucía reaches 50° C or 122° F in the summer with very low humidity. In situations like these I either use an umbrella (ok, it's a large one) or a sun bounce. In most cases my partner (assistent, friend) will hold the devices and shade everything. It's no problem because you'll escape from the spot anyway after 15 or 20 minutes - nobody wants to get roasted like a tenderloin. I don't have a wooden camera, but the heat doesn't make any difference between any of my camera systems - the photographer is the weak link :D

[Ed Richards]

A wood camera and carbon or wood tripod would certainly be cooler, as well as warmer in the winter.

[Mick Fagan]

I have a Shen Hao 4x5 wood field folder, two summers ago I used it for a week in a desert with temperatures hovering around 44-46º C, the evening/overnight minimum temperatures got down to around 27º C.

Humidity was really low, dry as a bone comes to mind, the camera performed flawlessly. My metal tripod was another matter altogether, just too hot to touch without gloves, or the use of the focusing cloth over my hands.

The last summer, particularly in February, we had some warm weather at home with three days in a row of extreme heat (for Melbourne) with temperatures over 45º C and humidity as measured by the meteorology people as low as 2% at times, but generally 6%. As we lost power and I couldn’t work, I went out and shot on each of those three days for about 3 hours, before I succumbed to the heat. The camera performed flawlessly and I had the same issues with the metal tripod, but this time I had gloves.

I do not think you will have any problems with a wood camera in extreme heat and low humidity; your body is going to give up quicker than any camera.

I have since purchased a wooden tripod. Since we are coming out of winter here, I simulated summer heat by laying the wood and metal tripods in front of a big north facing window, sitting in an aluminium foil reflector quickly made up. It was too hot to hold the metal tripod, but the wooden one was not a problem, except for the metal bits.

Mick.

[Arne Croell]

The camera will be ok. The wood in my sauna goes to temps of 185 degrees and is ok.

What about the lenses? The adhesive that holds the lenses together and the lubricant?

Film, check the manufacture info a lot of film starts fogging at 110 degrees.

Old lenses using Canada balsam as cement could be a problem due to softening, anything manufactured after the 1950's should be ok. After Canada balsam, but before they used the present day UV-curing cements, lens manufacturers actually used cements that were heat-cured. Having said that, I would be careful subjecting lenses known to show separation to temperature extremes, as one reason for the separation are different expansion coefficients of the two glasses and the cement. Apo-Lanthars and 1st generation Sironars (without the "N") are examples.

[Mark Sawyer]

A dark cloth that has a white or silver outer surface (like the Harrison dark cloth) will reflect heat and keep the camera slightly cooler.



Aside from the question of materials I have seen a dark cloth with silver mylar that would help reflect the sun away from you when in use! I don't know who makes them!

Just a note that plain old white reflects significantly better (and keeps things cooler) than "silver", which is usually a metallic grey. A true mirrored surface like mylar has about the same reflectivity as white, though it's more directional in its reflecting. But any mylar I've ever seen wouldn't hold up well to the constant crinkling a darkcloth goes through. And mylar will transmit heat more efficiently than cloth...

[Gem Singer]

Hi Mark,

After many Sat. morning outings here in the blazing Texas sun, our group has been able to compare various types of dark cloths. Some are made of heavy black material on both sides. Some are black on the inside and white on the outside, and some are black on the inside and silver on the outside.

The ones that are silver (light grey reflective) outside like the Blackjacket and the Harrison are fabricated from lighter weight material.

The lighter weight material seems to be a more important factor than the color of the material when designing a dark cloth that is comfortable to use under high heat conditions.

[Mark Sawyer]

Hi Mark,

After many Sat. morning outings here in the blazing Texas sun, our group has been able to compare various types of dark cloths. Some are made of heavy black material on both sides. Some are black on the inside and white on the outside, and some are black on the inside and silver on the outside.

The ones that are silver (light grey reflective) outside like the Blackjacket and the Harrison are fabricated from lighter weight material.

The lighter weight material seems to be a more important factor than the color of the material when designing a dark cloth that is comfortable to use under high heat conditions.

I would agree about the material weight; the lighter the total weight, the better, just for thermal mass. But a light-weight white would seem to be a better design than a light-weight silver; the white material should be considerably lighter, considering the density of pigment needed to make a silver-grey finished cloth, and an unpigmented white cloth would breathe much better too. (I'd assume either would depend on a similar black inner liner for light-proofing.)

And your blazing Texas sun won't generate much sympathy here in the deserts of southern Arizona! :D

[Gem Singer]

Hey Mark,

Not looking for sympathy. Having lived in Tucson and Phoenix for many years, i'll take Texas weather over Arizona weather, in the summer months, any day.

Dark cloth manufacturers need to compromise between material that is too light weight and blows away in the slightest breeze and heavier weight material that stands up under windy conditions. but is uncomfortable to work under in warmer conditions.

What I am saying is that I prefer the lighter weight material no matter what the color.

[Chris Jones]

Thanks for the discussion. I have been considering a Crown Graphic for field use during summer and was concerned it may not survive the 50 degree C outdoor temps with varying humidities and without any special packaging other then a camera bag. Can I assume from this discussion that it would? Now, does minus 10 degrees C during the wind chill of winter also not affect this camera?

[srbphoto]

I never had problems with heat when using a woodie. I switched to metal (Toyo 45A) because of moisture. The woodie I was using would lock up in high humidity. In heat or wet, I have an umbrella set up to shades (protects) me. It is a golf umbrella (bigger than standard) and a couple of lighting clamps. I clamp it to my tripod so it is out of the way and I can adjust it easily.

[Ernest Purdum]

The classical material for "tropical" cameras was teak, although Sinclair insisted mahogany was preferable.

[srbphoto]

I am not an expert about wood but it makes sense that some woods would work better than others in humid conditions. I just know I have never had the problem with my metal camera. In fact, I have been thinking of getting a lightweight wood 4X5 for backpacking. Plus, they really do look nicer than metal/carbon cameras IMHO :)

[Kevin Crisp]

Crown Graphics are not made of 'cheap box wood' but are actually solid Mahogany covered with real leather.

I also question whether a balsam glued lens is going to start moving around at 110 F. When you separate them in an oven they are plenty solid until you get up around 300F. I certainly would avoid shock in the sense of a rapid change from an ice cold AC'd vehicle to 110 degree heat. I've used balsam glued lenses in such heat with no problems at all.

[Harold_4074]

For stability, the type of wood matters, but the relative grain orientation between adjacent pieces may be more important, since the circumferential expansion and contraction with moisture is usually much larger than the radial. This why logs tend to crack radially as they dry, and why quarter-sawn lumber (grain perpendicular to the face) is considered the most stable. A dovetail joint with one piece flat-grain and the other edge-grain will come apart much more readily than one with matched grain. (Things like chairs are notorious for falling apart with time, partly because it is impossible to match grain in all of the oddly oriented joints.) In the case of a camera, the maker may or may not have factored this into the design and construction.

With respect to the original post: a good wooden camera will have fewer problems than a cheaply made one, and a metal one none at all (as least from heat/humidity). The metal camera probably doesn't get much hotter than a wooden one, in the sun, but the metal transfers heat to your hands more effectively, so it is less comfortable to touch. A pair of really good, thin gloves (goatskin or the equivalent) might help.

[Martin Aislabie]

Wood and metal will get equally as hot - however wood is a dreadful thermal conductor and metals are excellent conductors - hence why metal feels hotter than wood

Metal under Death Valley type conditions can become skin blisteringly hot - as I have found out to my cost.

Hands can be protected by gloves but the face cannot so the inevitable brushes with the camera will be extremely painful and long lasting.

A simple hand towel draped over the camera will help keep all the parts at a more bearable temperature with the added advantage that you can use it to mop the sweat of your face and prevent it dribbling into your eyes.

Martin

[Wilbur Wong]

Wood and metal will get equally as hot - however wood is a dreadful thermal conductor and metals are excellent conductors - hence why metal feels hotter than wood

Metal under Death Valley type conditions can become skin blisteringly hot - as I have found out to my cost.

Hands can be protected by gloves but the face cannot so the inevitable brushes with the camera will be extremely painful and long lasting.

A simple hand towel draped over the camera will help keep all the parts at a more bearable temperature with the added advantage that you can use it to mop the sweat of your face and prevent it dribbling into your eyes.

Martin

Martin is right about the conductivity aspect of the two materials, wood and metal. Based on the temperature of the materials as influenced by air temperature, both will be the same. The metal has the capacity to both hold many more calories of heat energy in it's thermal mass, PLUS due to it's conductivity transfer much more of it to your skin rapidly.

(An additional factor will be heat gain due to radiation from direct sunlight or radiation from the surroundings, the metal makes a pretty good "black body". Metallic surfaces might get as hot as black surfaces - white paint could reduce the radiated heat gain.)

When you come into contact with a material like wood, you will absorb the surface heat immediately, but the heat latent below the surface will take much longer to conduct to the surface to cause discomfort.

This could be a good reason to use a wooden camera under high temperature conditions. As for the durability of wood in your climate, it is not the heat but the humidity that causes dimensional changes. I don't know what desert you are working in, if the camera is conditioned for low humidity, keeping it warm and dry during a monsoon season would be good.

[joeyrsmith]

I am way down here in the Florida Keys.
Its been hitting 90 everyday for the past 2 months or more.
I have been out almost everyday with my Tachihara, and have not had a bit of problem. That includes the tripod up to the first knuckle in salt water.
I do however keep my feild bag and film bag out of direct sunlight.
Our humidity has been somewhat lower than the past. Not much though.

My problem sometimes is condensation. I just let the kit warm up slowly before I head out.