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rugenius
7-Sep-2009, 18:09
Pertaining to collapsible metal field cameras:
Just looking for a couple of comments to contrast the "utility/ease of use" and mechanical quality between Toyo 45A/AII, vs Witsa 45VX/SP, vs Horseman 45HD/FA...
Throw in others as appropriate...
Keywords: portability, quality, precision, ease of use/set-up in the field, sturdy, reliable, resilient

Do the features and construction provide an advantage compared to another manufacturer that will assist in imaging, and do it over and over?

Can someone distinguish between why a person would choose Japanese metal field compared to a "user grade" Linhof Tech IV/V if each used system were approx the same cost used...
Is the set of differences beyond the utility of each camera the mechanical silk of Linhof manufacture?.
Or,... is this mostly the collectible factor.
I.E. Purchasing a camera that tends to "hold it's value" versus completely utilitarian.
The metal/ wood field camera possibilities are so enormous that utility and design are more important to me than the value the camera will have in 10 years.
Or does choice come down to realistic average used price differences between these camera systems and the accessories period?

jeroldharter
7-Sep-2009, 18:41
Get a Toyo. Rock solid, reasonably light, easily takes 90-300mm lenses, readily available new and used.

Ari
7-Sep-2009, 18:49
You can test-drive a Linhof Technika; I have a III (version 5), it's buttery-smooth and bulletproof. Less features than a Tech IV or V, but by no means a slouch. If you can afford any of these, it will last you a lifetime.

David Karp
7-Sep-2009, 19:01
If you go with a Technika, you will be able to use a longer non-telephoto lens. I believe that you can go to a 450mm like a 450mm Fujinon C. With the Toyo, you can go to 300mm. With the others, I think you max out at 240mm, or perhaps 210mm.

That being said, I have seen a Wista (I don't remember which) and it is a sweet camera. Small, well made, and very solid. If I never went longer than 210mm, it would be enticing.

I think that the Technikas have more rear movements than the other cameras you listed, even if they are unconventional, when compared to those found on more traditional field cameras.

Dave_B
7-Sep-2009, 19:13
The Toyo is built like a brick s___house. It will do everything you need a camera to do and your great-grandchildren will be able to use it (if anyone still makes film then....). I love mine and it is the last camera I would get rid of.
Dave B.

Robert Hughes
7-Sep-2009, 19:18
My Busch Pressman D does 95% of what I could ask for in a camera, and it cost all of $100 (with lens) from the Dreaded...

Jim Rhoades
7-Sep-2009, 19:34
Well I have the Horseman HD and a Linhof V so I'll address those model's. Of all the camera's you listed the Horseman in the lightest by almost half. But... With the HD you give up back movements. The FA has some rear movements. It is limited by a 9 inch bellows. The Tech IV or V has all the movements you might need, 15 inch bellows, rangefinder, easy change cams and more parts made for it than you could ever use or carry.

The extream precision of the HD is what made me buy the Linhof at three times the price. The Horseman HD/FA is I think, toughter than a Linhof and at 3 point something pounds a better backpacking camera. The HD with the rubber coating over aluminum is damn near bullet proof. Lot's of owner's have stripped the rise/fall lever on the Linhof. While it's a well made camera it's not for the stupid or inept. A linhof at the price of a Horseman or Toyo will have rotted bellows and other needs that will be expensive to repair.

Now that I'm an old geezer working near my car the Linhof fits my needs. If your going to be working in the mountains, bouncing around in a jeep or on foot or motorcycle the HD is a better choice. You can put together a three lens outfit that weights less than the body of a Linhof,Toyo or Wista.

If you have the money for a good one and can handle the weight, a Linhof is the last 4X5 you will ever buy.

Frank Petronio
7-Sep-2009, 20:11
They are all excellent choices, as far as ease of use it is really a matter of personal preference and what you train yourself to do. Those are all strong, solid cameras but the Linhof has an even more rigid and robust feel -- more parts are cast and machined rather than being "bent". But the trade off is weight... I've owned the Wista - very nice but a short bellows; the Linhof - great but heavier than the others; I haven't owned a Toyo but I like them a lot; the Horseman HD is rarer and it seems a little too tiny almost, at least for my clumsy fingers.

Of course my advice is not to get any of those, just get a $250 Crown Graphic with a lens (or a cheap monorail) and go shoot and see if you like large-format photography in the first place. Once people decide that they like it, they often end up buying and trading several good cameras to find the one that is "just right" for them.

Thomas Greutmann
7-Sep-2009, 23:19
All cameras you mention are good cameras, if you choose any of the cameras on the list you will not make the wrong decision.

One additional comment regarding the Linhof Technika (I own a Linhof IV). They are heavy (heavier than others, which may be a pain sometimes) but it is a lot easier to find accessories, used or new, than for a Wista, Horseman etc. This may be important at some point. The Linhof design hasn't changed that much since the Linhof IV (introduced 60 years ago), so most accessories made then or now will fit any model, Linhof IV up to the newest model. Accessories being lensboards (I always need some), the viewfinder, the reflex hood, the compendium and so on.

And the accessories will usually fit other Linhof cameras as well, e.g. the Technikardan or the monorails.

To put it short: if you buy a Wista, Horseman etc. you buy a camera (certainly a good one), if you buy a Linhof you buy into a system.

Anthony Lewis
8-Sep-2009, 00:37
Don't forget the Toho FC45X. Metal, light, portable and sturdy. Takes a very wide range of lenses.

cjbroadbent
8-Sep-2009, 03:32
Lensboards! Everybody has boxes full of Linhof lensboards. I stuck to Linhof for years because I could alway beg or borrow at short notice.

Brian Ellis
8-Sep-2009, 07:33
"Can someone distinguish between why a person would choose Japanese metal field compared to a "user grade" Linhof Tech IV/V if each used system were approx the same cost used... "

I can tell you why I chose a Linhof Technika V and later a Master Technika over the three cameras you mention. The bellows on all three were too short for the longer lenses I prefer and I didn't feel like messing around with top hat lens boards. But all three cameras are fine cameras if they suit the type of work you do.

venchka
8-Sep-2009, 07:41
I wish I could find somebody with a box that had just one Tech V #1 board in it. For a modest price.

Bill_1856
8-Sep-2009, 07:58
I'm with Robert on the Busch Pressman D, Under $150. It's the 4x5 field camera I use most (and I also have a Technika IV to choose from).

Peter De Smidt
8-Sep-2009, 11:12
I have and highly recommend a Toyo 45AX.

Per Madsen
8-Sep-2009, 11:52
The Toyo 45AII is build like a tank and very stable.

The only problems are heaviness and a 300 mm as the longest lens,
if you are not using the Toyo extension tube (100 mm extra draw).

Toyo makes a Toyo Field to Linhof adapter.

Dave Hally
8-Sep-2009, 16:39
I use a Toyo 45A. I am a little rough on cameras, I've had mine blow over twice and do a face plant onto some rocks. The front standard broke off (both times) at the base, it is not very sturdy there (only two 1/16" pieces on each side). The camera was easily repaired with parts available from the importer. If you don't do extreme tripod setups, and take better care of your equiptment than I seem to be able to do, then you will do fine with the Toyo. I have had ocassion to want more bellows draw though.

Good Luck
Dave Hally

venchka
9-Sep-2009, 06:04
Linhof Technika V Trivia:

I seem to have more camera for extension than bellows. When the bellows are stretched to their absolute limit, the front standard is 3"-4" inches from the end of the rails. The bellows alone are about 15"-16". More than the Speed Graphic and less than the Zone VI. Perhaps I have replacement bellows? Something to look out for when shopping.

Bob Salomon
9-Sep-2009, 06:42
Linhof Technika V Trivia:

I seem to have more camera for extension than bellows. When the bellows are stretched to their absolute limit, the front standard is 3"-4" inches from the end of the rails. The bellows alone are about 15"-16". More than the Speed Graphic and less than the Zone VI. Perhaps I have replacement bellows? Something to look out for when shopping.

A Technika bellows, when the camera is fully open and the front standard is extended to its' full extension and the back is pulled out to its' full extension will extend to allow all of that extension. If yours does not even come close to full front extension then you do not have a Linhof Technika bellows. Or you have one that was installed incorrectly, or you have some pleats that are stuck together preventing full bellows extension.

venchka
9-Sep-2009, 06:51
Thanks Bob. I will double check tonight. I'm guessing I don't have the correct bellows.

venchka
10-Sep-2009, 05:45
Thanks Bob. I will double check tonight. I'm guessing I don't have the correct bellows.

Wrong. The Linhof goes all the way. A couple stuck pleats at the very back and my reluctance to "go all the way" for fear of tearing old bellows. I gingerly extended the camera to it's full range. 16 5/8" from glass to front of lens board. That's long.

That was the good news.

the best news: The bellows are holding back the light! 2 sheets through the camera. Both look good. No trace of leaks. I'll take the camera out into the Real World this weekend.

ic-racer
10-Sep-2009, 13:14
Can someone distinguish between why a person would choose Japanese metal field compared to a "user grade" Linhof Tech IV/V if each used system were approx the same cost used...
?

The Horseman FA is smaller and lighter than the Linhof because it does not have the rangefinder.

When I would compare a 6x9 Linhoff and a 6x9 Horseman with rangefinder it seems the Horseman is always less expensive.