Zone system question

[coops]

I was leafing through Ansel Adams The Negative at my local bookstore, and looked at some of the many examples he gives when describing the zone system. He often would start of the description by stating, for example, " the church roof fell on zone VIII" or " The dark shadow fell on zone III". Does he not place the church roof on zone VIII? Or place another value so the roof falls on zone VIII. I hope this question makes sense, and perhaps it's just semantics, but I just want to clarify so I am not missing something.
Thanks

[wfwhitaker]

Exposure affects low values first; development affects high values first. It's more common to meter for the lowest value in which you want detail and then see where the high values fall (as in your example). Development can be adjusted to keep the high values in range and in a logical placement. In a sense, you are placing the high values through development, although it's secondary to placing the low values through exposure.

[Gem Singer]

He read the darkest shadow with his spot meter and placed it on Zone III. Then he read the brightest area in the scene and found that it fell on Zone VIII.

That indicated a six stop spread. Well within the capability of the film he was using. He would then use N (normal) development.

If it was a wider or shorter spread of zones, he would increase or decrease his development time to adjust the contrast of the negative. (N+1, N-1, etc.).

[coops]

Thanks very much. Thats what I thought.

[Bruce Watson]

He read the darkest shadow with his spot meter and placed it on Zone III.

To clarify, he placed the darkest shadow that he wanted to show texture on Zone III. Zone II would be a really dark and textureless gray, while Zone I is black itself also without texture.

[Ken Lee]

As the others have said, the low values come first.

As a general proposition, if you badly underexpose the shadows or low values, there will be little or no usable data on the film. If you try to print it lighter, it will be only empty gray, with no details or texture.

However, there are some special techniques where we leave the film to "stand" in the developer for a very long time, with minimal agitation, often with diluted developer. With those techniques, the developer works on the low values for a long time, and brings out details which would be ordinarily lost.

What keeps the medium and high values from getting too dense? The trick is minimum agitation: the developer in the vicinity of medium and high values gets exhausted quickly, and stops working. Meanwhile, development proceeds in the underexposed areas. This is known as a "compensating" effect: only the low values get extra development. Some developers do a better job with "stand" development than others.

[Gem Singer]

Darkest area that still shows some detail= Zone III.

I assumed that everyone knew that.

Sorry Bruce. I'll try not to assume anything anymore.

[Bruce Watson]

Darkest area that still shows some detail= Zone III.

I assumed that everyone knew that.

Sorry Bruce. I'll try not to assume anything anymore.

We all make assumptions. The OP asked a newbie-ish question that included the phrase "The dark shadow fell on zone III". This made me assume that he did not know that the Zone System defines "dark shadow" and "dark shadow showing texture" as being different things, to be placed on different zones.

You made the assumption that he did know.

Between the two of us, we got it covered. That's what this forum is all about isn't it? What's not to like?

[Lachlan 717]

Does the opposite apply to using Zone with transparencies (i.e. expose for the highlights and adjust development for the shadows)?

I've never considered this for positives...

Lachlan

[William McEwen]

When you place one value, the other values fall.

Does that make sense?

[wfwhitaker]

Does the opposite apply to using Zone with transparencies (i.e. expose for the highlights and adjust development for the shadows)?


I've used that approach with success - halfway, that is, since I leave development to a lab. And I don't know that E6 would respond in that way, anyway. My technique is to place the highest value in which I want texture on Zone VII (or even slightly lower if I want more saturation) and let the other values fall where they may. It's worked for me.

[Don7x17]

You can "PLACE" one reading on one zone. Traditionally people place the detailed shadow (at 3, 3 1/2 or 4 depending your goals). The rest of the readings just "fall" where they do relative to the placed reading.

You can't "place" any other reading where you want during exposure, but you can expand or contract the overall negative (but can't rearrange the order of zones ;-) with zone 1 staying where it fell down nearly in base+fog.

For a high key photograph, or a photograph of white cat on a white background, you'll PLACE a single meter reading a lot higher than you normally would than if you were dealing with normal shadow details.

[Lachlan 717]

I've used that approach with success - halfway, that is, since I leave development to a lab. And I don't know that E6 would respond in that way, anyway. My technique is to place the highest value in which I want texture on Zone VII (or even slightly lower if I want more saturation) and let the other values fall where they may. It's worked for me.

Thanks, Will.

I, too, do this.

There are some occasions, however, that could use more latitude for shaded areas. I wonder if N+1/N-1 could help...

[mandoman7]

When you place one value, the other values fall.

Does that make sense?

I was wondering where the values went. Can we get them back?:p

[darr]

Thanks, Will.

I, too, do this.

There are some occasions, however, that could use more latitude for shaded areas. I wonder if N+1/N-1 could help...

I have used expose for the highlights for E-6 (usually clouds on landscapes). If you care to try an experiment, try exposing with a longer/shorter than normal (N) zone range, and have the lab push/pull one stop. I have never tried it since anymore I shoot mostly b&w and leave color to my digital.

Maybe someone here can comment if they've done it ...

Darr

[Brian Ellis]

To clarify, he placed the darkest shadow that he wanted to show texture on Zone III. Zone II would be a really dark and textureless gray, while Zone I is black itself also without texture.

To further clarify, placing the darkest important shadow on Zone III happens to be what Adams did in this example. But some people have found that placing the darkest important shadow on Zone III tends to lead to underexposed negatives so we often place that shadow on Zone IV. Or maybe we want to make a high key image and so we place that shadow on Zone V or even VI. One of the benefits of the zone system is that it's more than just a way to make negatives that are "correctly" exposed. It's a system that helps someone make the print they want to make.