To hell with paypal [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

walter23

27-May-2009, 16:41

I sold a low value item on ebay this week and when I received payment I got a notice saying paypal would hold the payment for 21 days.

After an angry phone call to them I found out that it can be reduced to as little as 3 days if you provide a tracking number for the shipment, or until the buyer leaves positive feedback (24 hours after that).

This begs the question; what if I was hard up for money, sold an item expecting to ship it with the money the buyer provides, and then was unable to ship because of this nasty surprise?

Besides, this seems like just another one of those bank policies where they get to hold money for a period of time and therefore have additional capital to invest, etc.

Disgusting. The price of monopoly. More and more companies are being run like they are payday loanshark services or something.

Matt Miller

27-May-2009, 17:34

I agree completely. Paypal sucks, especially for the seller.

Doug Dolde

27-May-2009, 17:38

I never ship until the payment clears.

Frank Bagbey

27-May-2009, 19:02

Read all the horror stories and the out of court settlement Paypal made at Paypalsucks.com or Google it.

Steve M Hostetter

27-May-2009, 19:33

I see paypal as a virus that infects your computer and then your bank account

Ted Stoddard

27-May-2009, 19:52

I agree as well that so called paypal court settlement was a f%^^^^%% joke... my 2 cents....

walter23

27-May-2009, 23:27

I never ship until the payment clears.

Yeah, exactly. That's a really good policy, and paypal has effectively shut down your ability to make that decision. You could ship something and then also be out the money because of some dishonest buyer filing a dispute. I feel uncomfortable shipping this out without having actual money in my posession, but that's my only option (other than refunding the money and possibly getting a negative feedback from a rightfully annoyed buyer taking out their frustration on me).

neil poulsen

28-May-2009, 00:19

I would make sure that I had a tracking number, the receipt, etc. of shipment.

Paypal has its positives. For example, I recently sold a reduction lensboard at 7pm a week ago last Sunday. Payment was received by Paypal by 9pm that night and I shipped the item the next morning. Buyer had the lensboard in his hands by the following Thursday.

Using a money order, the seller would have asked for my address. Maybe I could get back to him in a day or so. Then, buyer would send a money order that it make take a couple of days to get. I receive the money order, and then I would ship the item within a day or so after that.

That's several days difference to complete the transaction. The faster the money's received, the faster the seller can ship, the more likely that seller can receive positive feedback.

Paul Kierstead

28-May-2009, 06:47

The problem Paypal is trying to address is the very large inequality of power in the transaction. In the traditional transaction, the buyer pretty much has to put all the trust on the seller, cross their fingers and pray. Now I am sure that sellers like it that way -- it is largely a zero risk transaction for them -- but it certainly puts a lot of people off of buying from unknown sellers. So Paypal, in order to encourage buyers (and hence profits), is re-balancing the equation somewhat, where they act, essentially, as a sort of escrow service.

They only withhold on certain transactions, apparently considering seller history and the item in question (it seems they watch out for certain categories prone to fraud). And, as noted, there are ways to shorten the waiting period.

As a buyer, I like it. As a seller, it does, of course, concern me, but so far I have not run afoul of it. As a seller I do like that Paypal gives a lot more people the peace of mind to buy from me.

As to monopoly; hogwash. There are a ton of ways to sell stuff, and only one of them involves eBay and Paypal.

Alan Rabe

28-May-2009, 14:22

Same experience I had. see http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=45734
Buyer never left feedback. Took the full 21 days

Aahx

1-Jun-2009, 16:59

As I buyer I never leave feedback untill the item has arrived and I have examined it. Though when I bid on something I only bid if I have the cash on hand, and can pay in full via PayPal within an hour of wining the bid. So for me at least I have had zero problems using PayPal in that manner.

Doug Dolde

1-Jun-2009, 17:03

I don't think Paypal would side with the buyer if you didn't ship before payment cleared and they filed a dispute. It's a matter of record whether the funds cleared or not.

Yeah, exactly. That's a really good policy, and paypal has effectively shut down your ability to make that decision. You could ship something and then also be out the money because of some dishonest buyer filing a dispute. I feel uncomfortable shipping this out without having actual money in my posession, but that's my only option (other than refunding the money and possibly getting a negative feedback from a rightfully annoyed buyer taking out their frustration on me).

Lachlan 717

1-Jun-2009, 17:49

Whilst I hate PayPal, I must admit that, if it wasn't for eBay/PayPal, I certainly wouldn't get the option of buying/selling world wide.

We have a national newspaper (now also on line) called The Trading Post, but it really is rubbish. And global penetration is non-existent.

Now, I know that there are many here who are reticent to sell outside the US (Still cannot get my head around that. Why limit your market and potential sales? Hmmm, I digress); however, I don't have that option.

I do feel that their fees are too high and that they have some stupid policies, but I am just as certain that I make and save more money using it than if it wasn't there. It is a necessary, but not too evil, evil!

Lachlan.

eddie

2-Jun-2009, 04:08

i have not experienced this yet. i guess i have been playing acceptably with paypal as they never have held my money.

i worry a bit as i have had recent buyers not leave me feedback i hate to ask for feedback because sometimes i think "if you have nothing nice to say do not say anything" may be part of it. i probably should not think that way as i feel i am pretty easy to get along with and i describe my stuff well with plenty of pictures.

but, i will say this. i have a separate back account linked to paypal. my back up source is a debit card from that account. as soon as i get paid i transfer the money out of paypal into my bank. then from that PP account to another NON PP account. if they ever play any games i plan to just shut down the account.....and then negotiate. i have heard stories where people PP accounts have been frozen leaving them unable to get their monies....even money not associated with a specific transaction. i have also heard PP tries to go into the PP bank account and get said funds.....maybe it will work. maybe not. so far no problems for me.

walter, be glad it is only a small amount of money.......

walter23

2-Jun-2009, 07:45

What annoyed me about this particular situation was not just that they had this policy but that they didn't tell me until after I'd received payment through their system. When I called to ask about it, they said "yeah, sometimes with some items we deem to be high risk, we do this". I've received payment without hassle before. In this case though a money order would have been faster / better.

Jim Noel

2-Jun-2009, 08:37

I see paypal as a virus that infects your computer and then your bank account

I totally agree. I quit using PP several years ago.

mrpengun

29-Jun-2009, 14:03

...
Now, I know that there are many here who are reticent to sell outside the US (Still cannot get my head around that. Why limit your market and potential sales? Hmmm, I digress); however, I don't have that option....

I worry about shipping outside the USA because, if there is some sort of charge-back or other issue arises, paypal takes the money and the seller is left with the loss, and zero recourse to get it back. in the states, there has been proven methods for litigating fraudulent buyers, even across state lines. Outside of the US, you've got zero.

My anti-paypal issue actually came from me as a buyer; I purchased something in the UK, had a friend there pick it up. Then, two days later, the paypal deemed the transaction potentially fraudulent, and suspended my account. I had to call paypal UK to sort it out (I was traveling the following week), unfortunately the poor seller needed the money for a vacation he was taking, and when it magically disappeared from his account, he was suddenly short of cash and overdrawn.
I paid him as quickly as I could, but the damage was done the moment paypal decided to revoke an already cleared transaction.

paypal helps send money faster, which is a plus, but the cause just as many problems as well.

srbphoto

2-Jul-2009, 09:22

Is this a recent change? I have done over 1300 transactions (most selling) through ebay/Paypal and never had anything held. I have sold a wide variety of items. I have taken a break since fall but am going to be selling some stuff soon.

Patrick Dixon

7-Jul-2009, 03:30

The Dread Pirate Robins

7-Jul-2009, 08:46

...So, if it happens, and they want the goods released, they'll just have to submit positive feedback before I ship.

That situation would be tricky. I don't leave feedback until I receive the item and can be sure that it was "as described" and the whole bit. I think I now know why this makes some sellers antsy when it's been a few days and I haven't left feedback. My reply is always that I am waiting for the item so I can properly leave feedback.

So far I have left nothing but positive feedback, except for one clown that I had a dispute with because he sent me something that didn't work and he said that it did. We never got that resolved, so I have one old light meter that is essentially a paper weight. Since we failed to get things resolved I never left feedback.

Patrick Dixon

7-Jul-2009, 09:21

Yeah it's not great. But if they didn't want to do that, they could always find another (cheaper) way of paying.

Bottom line is that I won't ship until the money is mine, and that's stated as part of the offer.

paperinik

13-Aug-2009, 14:51

Marko

13-Aug-2009, 15:10

I've just won an auction for a pretty looking horseman 980.
I found it attracting also for the good change rate we have between EUR>USD.
Well, what a bad surprise I've found:

-official excange: 1 EUR > 1,415 USD
-excange rate applied by Visa for other transactions: 1 EUR > 1,415 USD
-rate applied by payshit: 1 EUR > 1,381 USD (!!!!)

John Donahoe, can you hear me?

I WISH YOU'LL SPEND MY MONEY IN CHEMOTHERAPY!

The difference comes down to $34 per 1000 EUR, and if you paid even close to THAT much, you have ten times the reason to be angry at the seller, not to mention yourself.

Do you really value money so much to merit such a gruesome wish to another human over a few bucks?

If so, would you wish the same to yourself? After all, you were the one who did not bother checking the conversion rate until after the purchase...

:rolleyes:

paperinik

13-Aug-2009, 15:23

I'm not absolutely angry with the seller.
Try to search in wikipedia who I'm angry with, and you'll see if I'm right or not.

Try to imagine how much money the payshit extorts eveyrday, for free, with no risk at all, AFTER charging fees to the seller.

I just hope that my maledictions will hit the target.

I checked change rate ten times, the surprise come out durig payment, where, applying classical FUD strategies, they tell you that you can agree with this extortion or go ahead with normal Visa exchange. AT YOUR OWN RISK.

The fact is that I normally pay online with a debit card, kept unloaded for safety, and charged when I have to buy something.
Now, as you can see, it's hard to know when these assholes will process my order to give the seller HIS money.

I guess that many people act as I do, payshit knows it, and cash extra MILLIONS with no effort at all.

No, a cancer is barely enough for my anger.

Marko

13-Aug-2009, 15:49

I understand why you are angry. I just don't quite get the level of anger.

Well, if it is of any consolation to you, many people get taken for much more money quite often. If this is the worst that ever happened to you, you are very lucky without even knowing it.

I hope nobody gets that angry at you at some point, though...

paperinik

13-Aug-2009, 16:28

Oh, I'm so terrible :D

What drives me nuts is this: try to sum all the money taken off by your pockets with similar technique by paypal, by your bank, by your cell phone company, fuel company.... I could continue.

Well, I've made some calculation, in my case the sum is about 500 (!) EUR per year:
-250 with hidden costs on my mortage. An arbitration would cost me ten times as much, with few chanches to win.
-80 (!!!!!!) by paypal change rates (why the best stuff has always to come from USA?)
I've checked the average spent online in a whole year.
-70 thanks to prices policies applied to CNG fuel, and the authority sleeps.
-30 from cellphones unwanted services, they are simply diabolic.
-the remaining 70 are from miscellaneus "fees" hidden in services, for wich Italy is worldwile famous. Consider that we are also paying an excise tax on fuel for the ethiopian war of 1935!!

that makes 714 USD at today change rate, or 690 for paypal.

And I should not get angry.

PS
I franky don't know how terrible is perceived overseas, but the dialet expression "vegn'un canker" (tr. "may you die by a cancer") is quite common here.

PPS
My mother also said that when someone throws such maledicion against you, acctually lenghten your life. :mad:
I have to change strategy, now I will search on e-bay some vodoo dolls

Marko

13-Aug-2009, 17:11

I didn't say these are NOT outrageous, all I said was that getting angry over trivial sums is not worth the aggravation because the health ultimately lose by being constantly angry will cost you many times more.

To be clear, if it is not worth going to arbitration, it IS trivial. Simply calculate it into the cost of doing business, just like VAT, CRV or whatever the local taxes are called wherever you are, and move on.

I mean, think about it - you would have to spend at least an hour or two of your time on the phone trying to recover the damage each time someone decides to scam a few bucks out of you. I don't know about you, but it certainly isn't worth my time, much less my good mood.

P.S. I've had several people relatively close to me die of cancer and if I ever felt tempted to wish it on someone, it would have to be someone truly "special". Small time scammers do not come even close. Being what they are is their own biggest punishment.

B.S.Kumar

13-Aug-2009, 23:51

Marko

14-Aug-2009, 06:05

Exactly.

They are trivial insofar as they are not worth loosing one's sleep - and health - over them, but if one were a lawyer (or knew one) with some time on their hands, these sums are both non-trivial and frequent enough to trigger a big, fat lawsuit, perhaps even a class-action and squeeze some real money out of some of those companies. And they could still get to keep a good chunk of it.

Unless one knows a politician craving some attention. Then they could initiate a new legislation designed to prevent such racket. That would be the best solution for everybody involved - consumers would have a happy feeling of being protected by their government in return for their taxes, politicians would be happy because their approval rating would go through the roof, lobbyists would be happy because they would get lots of money to throw at politicians to build in enough loopholes to keep the corporations keep scamming the consumers, only in a slightly less obvious manner and corporations would be happy because they would get to keep all that money (except the lobbying fees).

The only unhappy party under this scenario would be lawyers because they would be left without any money, so they would soon start trying to devise a good lawsuit to remedy that. And the corporations would either hire the best of them to defend them in court or (and) start throwing a little more money at politicians to come up with exceptions to those laws. Maybe even settle on the largest and most insistent of the class-actions and throw a few pennies to each member...

And after the dust settles, they would intensify the bogus fees so they could make up for all the money spent in the process...

;)

Paul Kierstead

14-Aug-2009, 07:10

-official excange: 1 EUR > 1,415 USD
-excange rate applied by Visa for other transactions: 1 EUR > 1,415 USD
-rate applied by payshit: 1 EUR > 1,381 USD (!!!!)

You guys must be luck. Here Visa charges 3%+ for exchange, as does just about any other vendor (including going to the bank directly). It can get much higher if one doesn't shop carefully.

As well, for me at least, Paypal will offer to charge your card in your currency or the currency of the vendor, basically allowing me to have them do the conversion or my own Visa card company do the conversion.

And lastly, they provide a service, I am unclear why they shouldn't charge for it. It isn't a mandatory service, and once can certainly restrict themselves to vendors which offer alternative methods of payments. As a similar example, I will not use any US seller which only offers UPS, as UPS will rape me silly with brokerage fees (or with shipping fees if I use expedited). I protect myself instead of getting angry.

Len Middleton

14-Aug-2009, 08:52

And lastly, they provide a service, I am unclear why they shouldn't charge for it. It isn't a mandatory service, and once can certainly restrict themselves to vendors which offer alternative methods of payments. As a similar example, I will not use any US seller which only offers UPS, as UPS will rape me silly with brokerage fees (or with shipping fees if I use expedited). I protect myself instead of getting angry.

Paul,

I certainly agree with your experience with UPS, but have you sold or listed anything on feeBay recently?

PayPal is mandatory for a number of juristictions, including the USA, UK, and Australia. If you do not offer PayPal for payment, your listing will not show up in that feeBay country site. That covers a significant part of the English speaking feeBay community. In the last listings I did, the items sold with only a single bid, and I beleive that the reduced audience significantly contributed to that.

PayPal is not mandatory by feeBay in Canada, and that may be related to our banking laws. They perform financial transactions and maybe someone else follows the "walks like a duck and quacks like a duck" criteria for identifying what type of "animal" PayPal actual resembles.

I have used PayPal in the past to pay for auctions. But because of past stories including ones I heard directly from the victim, I do not use PayPal to collect, as there is no guarantee that you will get and keep your money. Hypocritical, I guess it is, but I operate honestly and do not put the seller at risk, but not prepared to take the risk of not collecting for stuff I sell.

My C$0.02 (and at today's convertion rate...),

Len

BrianShaw

14-Aug-2009, 09:32

They are trivial insofar as they are not worth loosing one's sleep - and health - over them, but if one were a lawyer (or knew one) with some time on their hands, these sums are both non-trivial and frequent enough to trigger a big, fat lawsuit, perhaps even a class-action and squeeze some real money out of some of those companies. And they could still get to keep a good chunk of it.

The last class-action suit that I was a part of was to seek restitution for money a large corporation bilked thousands of people out of. I, personally, added up the amount I was bilked -- it was in the hundred$. The corporation was ordered to return thousand$ to their customers. After it was settled, I received my compensation: a check for less than fifty cents. No apology, no nothing except a check that was hardly worth cashing.

I'm with Marko... not loosing sleep over losing a bit of money. That seems to happen every day; I feel like I'm constantly "giving away" money because others feel free to "steal" from me, but they have to live with themselves. They may have nicer cars, offices, and homes but I have it much better: peace-of-mind... and no Italian cancer at the moment.

Paul Kierstead

14-Aug-2009, 10:27

Paul,

I certainly agree with your experience with UPS, but have you sold or listed anything on feeBay recently?

PayPal is mandatory for a number of juristictions, including the USA, UK, and Australia.

I have stuff on eBay right (wanna Canon fisheye?) now, taking PayPal only. The point is that eBay is not mandatory, therefore Paypal isn't. I could sell through alternative channels and do business any number of ways. eBay offers me the maximum number of buyers, and works especially well for more esoteric equipment. I do somewhat resent that there isn't any real competition on that level and that eBay has me "over a barrel", but ultimately I can more easily sell my item, for more money, on eBay with Paypal. They know it and I know it, and they want a piece of the action for the service. And why wouldn't they.

I don't use them for 'easy to sell things'; I post it locally and do the transaction, in cash, for zero cost.

Len Middleton

14-Aug-2009, 10:41

Paul,

Sorry I missed the semantics of your comments.

Yes, feeBay is not mandatory (but then neither is MS Windows), but PayPal is effectively mandatory if you chose to use feeBay.

If you want to reach the largest possible audience, then feeBay is the place. But like computer operating systems, it tends to be a "natural monopoly", where the advantage is to the largest player and with limited opportunity for others to successfully compete.

I understand the business model, but that does not mean to say I like it...

And like you, I also use other resources.

Thanks for the clarification,

Len

nathanm

14-Aug-2009, 11:22

"This begs the question; what if I was hard up for money, sold an item expecting to ship it with the money the buyer provides, and then was unable to ship because of this nasty surprise?"

That was exactly what I ran into when I put two items up on eBay. It's not the end of the world, but it sure was annoying and stretched out the time for me to get my money an extra week. It would be nice to have that money to pay for the damn shipping, like you could before. Hmph. Dishonest folk have gotta wreck it for everyone don't they?

All these rules make sense for the crooks, but for honest people who have no intention of ripping anyone off it just makes the whole process so unpalatable. If there was such a thing as Just A Website Which Puts Buyers And Sellers Into Contact With Each Other For A Modest Listing Fee And Doesn't Crawl Up Their Ass With Overly Protective Rules Bay, I'd go there. It's not a catchy title, though, and takes a long time to type into the browser.

Donald Miller

14-Aug-2009, 17:27

I am somewhat amused by the outburst by my Italian friend. Italy of all places!!! Hell anyone living there should know how things are by now. I swear Italians would charge for the air one breathes if they could only find a way to do it. I fondly recall paying $210 euro to change the thermostat in a Ford Fiesta...a damned thermostat for God's sake. The person ripping me of was??? You have got it a full blooded Italian.

So to have an Italian upset by what has happened is somewhat amusing. Perhaps a review of the prinicipal of "what goes round, comes round" might be in order.

Donald Miller

Marko

14-Aug-2009, 20:25

BrianShaw

14-Aug-2009, 20:27

Then again, you are talking about the cradle of the Cosa Nostra and the Camorra... :)

I wouldn't want to be you right now. You're probably a marked man. Those, ummm, "organizations" aren't Italian... they're Sicilian. Sicily ain't really Italy. They don't like being called "Italian". :o

Marko

14-Aug-2009, 20:31

I wouldn't want to be you right now. You're probably a marked man. Those, ummm, "organizations" aren't Italian... they're Sicilian. Sicily ain't really Italy. They don't like being called "Italian". :o

Actually, the Camorra is Neapolitan... :D

And you don't know where I come from. ;)

BrianShaw

14-Aug-2009, 20:36

I like spagetti... and pizza!

Marko

14-Aug-2009, 20:40

Hey, I'm not from NYC!

:D

rguinter

15-Aug-2009, 09:14

Yes it's fairly recent. AFAIK it only applies to items/sellers that eBay considers high risk, so you may or may not get a payment held.

I just put on all my auctions that I will not send goods until the payment has been cleared and released, and that the buyer may have to provide additional information to expedite that. So, if it happens, and they want the goods released, they'll just have to submit positive feedback before I ship.
---------------------
Patrick: How on Earth can someone leave you feedback before you've shipped their item? Realistically, feedback can only occur once the transaction is complete.

But regarding paypal I fully agree with this thread. To Hell with it. I have never used it and never will. And I recommend no-one else use it. It should be driven out of business by lack of use. Those who are currently using it should cease and close out the credit accounts they used to join. With identity theft increasing every day worldwide who wants unknown employees at some second-rate company like paypal having access to all one's personal financial data. For most internet auction transactions there is nothing safer than a couple of $twenties sent in the mail. More than that then get a money order. The only risk of loss is that specific transaction amount. And for those that use paypal, every one of you has paid more in fees than I have lost in approximately 1000 internet auction transactions with cash and money orders. My total loss to-date = $0.00.

rguinter

15-Aug-2009, 09:40

These "trivial" fees are actually devised that way. They are small enough that almost everyone will ignore them, or consider them to be the cost of doing business. But the total sum of such fees is certainly not trivial.

Kumar
---------------------
Kumar: Absolutely!!! And the reason all should get angry enough to close their paypal accounts and go back to cash and carry.

Donald Miller

15-Aug-2009, 19:45

Then again, you are talking about the cradle of the Cosa Nostra and the Camorra... :)

True, but primarily and heavily around Napoli (Camorra) and Sicily(Mafia). Elsewhere they don't give you too much trouble unless you step on toes. Mafiosa don't run "rip off businesses" for the most part. They want to make money without attracting attention. They try to control segments of the economy. In Milano, for instance, they have solid control of the funeral business...ie undertakers, caskets or cremations, services, funeral carriages and limos, florists and photographers, etc. I was made to leave the public cemetary in Milano because I was intruding into their space.

No matter where one lives today there is organized crime, whether that is the drug organizations of Mexico, latin and south America or the Russian Mafia as notable examples among many others.

walter23

16-Aug-2009, 13:45

And lastly, they provide a service, I am unclear why they shouldn't charge for it..

You can think of electronic payment as an emerging new currency; electrons and data travelling through wires and modifying values in databases, instead of printed pieces of paper. In light of that, having it so heavily feed is really nothing short of usury.

You'd go absolutely ballistic if banks and the payroll departments of your company started charging you 3% every time you moved cash in and out, and holding your money for 21 days (well, the bastards already hold cheques for 7 to 10 days). Hell, the banks are also making a killing from $1 and $2 service fees for withdrawls, a horrible practice that any reasonably civilized society would outlaw.

Jim Cole

17-Aug-2009, 11:14

Please forgive my overly candid reponse but...

Big Brother is in bed with Big Business.

We let them use us. Why? Because it's easier or more convenient or "safer". BS... we Americans believe all the hype/propaganda that's thrown at us. We should be embarrassed.

What hype? I agree that our gov't has overstepped its bounds on more than one occasion, but I don't know what that has to do with PayPal...owned by eBay which is a public company. All I know is that eBay provides me with a simple way to access millions of shoppers and I get a fair market value for my goods...for a fee. PayPal allows me to collect or pay funds in a normally quick and painless manner...for a fee which I have agreed to.

The only time PayPal held my payment in reserve was when I sold a Nakamichi tape deck which was considered "high risk". The buyer received his deck, provided me with positive feedback and my funds were released in about 10 days. Not really much longer than waiting for a money order.

Use it or don't use it, it's everyone's perogative, but I don't understand all the bashing. There are plenty of ways to sell something and receive payment. Do whatever is comfortable for you. It has worked for me on about 100 sales/purchases over the last 8 years. Every financial system in the world will screw up once in a while, but overall PayPal is a great system.

Paul Kierstead

17-Aug-2009, 11:34

You'd go absolutely ballistic if banks and the payroll departments of your company started charging you 3% every time you moved cash in and out, and holding your money for 21 days (well, the bastards already hold cheques for 7 to 10 days).

Um, no, I would switch banks (and employers). I've switched banks for a *lot* less fees then that. Why go ballistic? It isn't constructive. I do consider it worthwhile to let the company know why you are switching, though.

As well, you message is a bit disingenuous; that 3% covers Visa transaction fees (often more then 3% via other methods) and is their fault as much as PayPals, and the 21 days is not normal practice.

Look, I'm not really defending Paypal here, I'm just saying people should put their money where their mouth is. The simple fact is that most don't because the benefit of using eBay/Paypal outweighs the cost, which tells us really that the system (in the big sense) is working as designed. When the fees begin to outweigh the advantages, then viable competitors will rise.

For those who honestly have seriously quit using eBay/Paypal and put their money elsewhere, well they needn't be all wound up about it; the act of shifting money has already accomplished so much more.