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lilmsmaggie
26-May-2009, 10:21
Help me understand this purported offer:

Ken Rockwell and Dave Wyman, will visually explore areas written about by noted American author John Steinbeck, including California's central coast and coastal mountains, and the beautiful Salinas Valley. Those interested can join the group to the tune of $350 which does not accomodations. What do you get for your $350?

Trip leaders
Group dinner, picnic lunch
A variety of field sessions
Photographic instruction
Help with accommodations in (participants are invited to stay at the same motel as the instructors, contact Dave)
Entry to the Monterey Aquarium and Steinbeck Center

Are these types of photograhic trips worth the cost of admission?

Gem Singer
26-May-2009, 13:03
If you need to ask, you're not ready for the experience.

lilmsmaggie
26-May-2009, 13:42
If you need to ask, you're not ready for the experience. :eek:

Oh I'm ready ... I just question the cost. It sounds like participants to this workshop are subsidzing these guys income. I can drive to Monterey and the Salinas area in about 4 hrs., buy my own lunch and dinner and STILL have time and MONEY to photograph scenery etc. And it won't cost me $350 to do so.

Give me a break ... If you want to blow your money this way, you go right ahead and be my guest.

John T
26-May-2009, 14:06
People take these tours to learn something. It sounds like you don't think they shouldn't be allowed to make a living-that they should give of their time and knowledge. That seems a little harsh.

lilmsmaggie
26-May-2009, 15:37
It sounds like you don't think they shouldn't be allowed to make a living-that they should give of their time and knowledge. That seems a little harsh.

I'm not saying they don't have a right to make a living. Maybe I'm biased because I happen to live in California, and I know these areas (Monterey, Salinas) very well.

As an artist, professional, whatever; its one thing to promote learning and transfer of knowledge. It's another to take advantage of a situation. Maybe I am being too harsh. I just think that the cost for this trip is a little excessive. But if you want to spend the money and you feel its justified -- by all means have at it.

It kind of reminds me of the two kids in the movie "Slumdog Millionaire," where they took advantage of the tourists and make some dough at the same time. :)

Gem Singer
26-May-2009, 15:38
"It sounds like participants in this workshop are subsidizing these guy's income".

Of course they are. That's how these guy's make a living.

If you don't believe that $350 is a fair price for a workshop with Ken Rockwell and Dave Wyman, check out the prices of some of the other workshops that take place during the summer months. There are quite a few of them put on by well known photographers.

Perhaps Ken and Dave are not famous enough for you. In that case, take a workshop with John Sexton, Alan Ross, Bruce Barnbaum, Ray McSaveny, etc.

lilmsmaggie
26-May-2009, 17:13
[QUOTE=Gem Singer;471806Perhaps Ken and Dave are not famous enough for you. In that case, take a workshop with John Sexton, Alan Ross, Bruce Barnbaum, Ray McSaveny, etc.[/QUOTE]

Actually, since this thread began, I have discovered several workshops in the same price range, where I would be more than happy to pay the $350-600 to attend.
One in workshop in particular in New England, would actually cost more ($400 + airlines and lodging), but to me the potential exposure to experinced LF photography would be worth the cost.

I'm actually considering one of John Sexton's workshops and I'm on his mailing list. Not that Ken and Dave need to be "famous enough," rather than the preference would be talented and gifted photographers that just happened to be exceptional instructors.

I've followed Ken's blog. Not to invalidate his talent nor his abilities; he's just not my cup of tea. I know nothing of Dave.

Maybe I need to clarify what I meant by:

"photograhic trips worth the cost of admission"

Maybe what I should have said was: considering the expenditure on camera, lenses, accessories, etc., and in some cases film; which workshops might be considered the "best for your photographic buck." Rather subjective? - yes, but if you're gonna do it - then it needs to be provide some value to YOU as a student of photography.

I suppose that just opens another can of worms ... :)

Jim Graves
26-May-2009, 17:23
In 4 years I've gone to 5 workshops ... price range from $65 to $800 (5 days in Yosemite) ... all within 4 -5 hours of my home. All were well worth the money.

I had access to 1 or more top-notch photographers at each (and some really good classmates), I was shown extraordinary places to photograph and given tips on how to photograph them, I learned new processes from experts, I met other LF photographers that I still stay in touch with, I got to talk LF photography at breakfast , lunch, and dinner ... I learned a lot very quickly.

They are expensive but by my estimate the photographers that put them on are not making all that much per hour ... especially after paying their own expenses. In all but one of the workshops I attended, the teaching photographer was also paying their own transportation, lodging, and meal costs.

John Kasaian
26-May-2009, 17:29
Help me understand this purported offer:


Are these types of photograhic trips worth the cost of admission?

It depends.

If I could afford it I would take a workshops if they were run by a photographer(s) whose work really captured my imagination---even if the subject area was in my own back yard.

If all I expect is a guided tour though, I'd save my money, buy a tourist map or in the worse case scenario hire a local guide.

Competition in the tourist industry is fierce. No one is going to stay in business for long if they offer a disappointing experience. If you like the photographic work these guys do, then it sounds like a good bet (from what you've written about it) but if all you want to do is bop around Steinbeck Country and take photos on your own you are certainly free to do that as well (just make it early in the day, before the tour busses start running. Monterey gets very crowded in the summer!)

Since you're a local (by California standards anyway) and you've been to this area before---what are you looking for (or what are you missing?) It could be that these fellows might be able to help you out. Would that be worth the tab? No one can decide that for you.

lilmsmaggie
26-May-2009, 17:57
[B]It could be that these fellows might be able to help you out. Would that be worth the tab? No one can decide that for you.

I'm used to weather variances around California's coastal areas and in the Central Valley. I was Stationed in San Diego and Long Beach. I've lived near or on the California coast since coming here in 1968. Pismo, Santa Cruz/Capitola, Big Sur, Redondo, Marin, Fresno, Bakersfield, you name it, I've probably been there several times and at different times of year.

Humbolt County -- now there's a place I haven't visited. Beautiful! Huge redwood trees, thousands of years old.

Hey! --I'm an amatuer. I'm a sponge.

Ken & Dave will just have to wait, or offer up a location a little more inticing than Salinas. :D

Brian Ellis
26-May-2009, 18:09
You don't say how long the workshop lasts but $350 is inexpensive as far as workshops go if it's for more than a weekend. For a weekend it's probably about average. I've attended about 12 workshops in the last 12 or so years, almost always with well known instructors - John Sexton (four workshops covering five weeks from John alone), Ruth Bernhard, Bruce Barnbaum, Clyde Butcher, Phil Davis, Ray McSavaney, Don Kirby, George deWolfe, and a couple lesser known but outstanding photographer/instructors such as Ron Rosenstock, Craig Stephens and David Wells. Prices have ranged from about $300 for two days with Clyde Butcher to $3,000 or thereabouts for twelve days in Ireland with Ron Rosenstock. Some included room and board (Ron Rosenstock's Ireland workshop, for example), some included room and no board, some included neither. None included transportation to and from the workshop and on average that probably added another $500 or so to the cost.

Except for a one-week workshop at the Sante Fe Photographic Workshops conducted by someone well known here but whose name will go unmentioned (not anyone included in the names listed above), I've come away from every one feeling that as between the benefit and pleasure to me of attending the workshops and the money the photographers who conducted them earned, I got by far the better end of the deal.

I'm at a complete loss as to how you figure Ken and Dave are "taking advantage of a situation." What situation? Is there a rule in California that all citizens have to take a photography workshop once a year or else they lose their drivers license? I don't think so. I think attendance at this and every other photography workshop I know of is completely voluntary. Nobody is taking advantage of anything. If you think $350 is too high by all means don't attend the workshop.

Hans Berkhout
26-May-2009, 18:37
I assume you have knowledge/experience in your own field of expertise. How much would you charge per hour if I wanted to learn from you?

John Kasaian
26-May-2009, 19:05
I'm used to weather variances around California's coastal areas and in the Central Valley. I was Stationed in San Diego and Long Beach. I've lived near or on the California coast since coming here in 1968. Pismo, Santa Cruz/Capitola, Big Sur, Redondo, Marin, Fresno, Bakersfield, you name it, I've probably been there several times and at different times of year.

Humbolt County -- now there's a place I haven't visited. Beautiful! Huge redwood trees, thousands of years old.

Hey! --I'm an amatuer. I'm a sponge.

Ken & Dave will just have to wait, or offer up a location a little more inticing than Salinas. :D

Well, workshops are made for sponges :D It sounds as though you are already well on your way into your portfolio on Steinbeck Country and perhaps an outside influence wouldn't be the best route.

As far as $350 for a workshop, that really isn't very expensive compared to other workshops I've read about. If the cost is prohibitive to you (and I've been out a job for about a year now so it would definately prohibitive for me) that is one thing, but to complain about the cost of something you don't intend to buy is just silly.

I think it was Per Volquarz (sp??) an outstanding photographer who used to offer free workshops here at various locations in the West. Everyine I've talked to who attended had only rave reviews about the experience (sadly, I was working then and couldn't get the time off!)

lilmsmaggie
26-May-2009, 22:47
You don't say how long the workshop lasts but $350 is inexpensive as far as workshops go if it's for more than a weekend. For a weekend it's probably about average. Nobody is taking advantage of anything. If you think $350 is too high by all means don't attend the workshop.

Sorry -- my bad.

It's a 4 day workshop. Did I offend anyone living in the Salinas valley?

So yes, reasonably priced. But, I've been to Salinas.

______________________________________________________________
It's the good girls who keep diaries; the bad girls never have the time.

Tallulah Bankhead

lilmsmaggie
26-May-2009, 22:59
It sounds as though you are already well on your way into your portfolio on Steinbeck Country and perhaps an outside influence wouldn't be the best route.

[/QUOTE]
As far as $350 for a workshop, that really isn't very expensive compared to other workshops I've read about. If the cost is prohibitive to you (and I've been out a job for about a year now so it would definately prohibitive for me) that is one thing, but to complain about the cost of something you don't intend to buy is just silly.[/QUOTE]

Must be touching a nerve here. Perhaps, if you went back and read my statements. I'm not complaining. I'm making an observation and statements related to my perceptions of this particular workshops perceived value. So yes -- I'm making a judgment call.

My Judgment. My call.
_____________________________________________________________
It's the good girls who keep diaries; the bad girls never have the time.

Tallulah Bankhead

John Kasaian
27-May-2009, 01:47
As far as $350 for a workshop, that really isn't very expensive compared to other workshops I've read about. If the cost is prohibitive to you (and I've been out a job for about a year now so it would definately prohibitive for me) that is one thing, but to complain about the cost of something you don't intend to buy is just silly.[/QUOTE]

Must be touching a nerve here. Perhaps, if you went back and read my statements. I'm not complaining. I'm making an observation and statements related to my perceptions of this particular workshops perceived value. So yes -- I'm making a judgment call.

My Judgment. My call.
_____________________________________________________________
It's the good girls who keep diaries; the bad girls never have the time.

Tallulah Bankhead[/QUOTE]

The perceived value is kind of nebulous. A better answer as to the value you could expect to recieve would best be given by someone who has previously taken the workshop you are/were contemplating. How much of the workshop is "Steinbeck" and how much of the workshop is "Country?" Will you be seeing the settings where Steinbecks stories were inspired? The ravine near Carmel where the undertaker dumped corpses? The railroad grade in Monterey where Doc Ricketts car stalled on the tracks when the Del Monte Express killed him? The arroyo with the wild azealias they picked and filled the Model A with? A lot of these areas may be difficult to find on your own and if they are the subject of your portfolio then there would be quite a bit of value in having a guide.

On the other hand, if what you're after is round coastal hills and the sea there is plenty of that for the taking (no sea in Salinas though!)

You want to talk about Salinas? Try the war won ton soup at the Salinas Airport cafe---wonderful stuff! The Pinnacles National Monument (I think now it's called a National Park but I could be wrong) is best tackled in winter--beautiful green hills and rock formations. If you go in the Summer take plenty of water and watch out for rattlers. And do some tasteing at Hahn Winery---the best $12 Merlot in the galaxy!

How's that for value? :)

lilmsmaggie
27-May-2009, 10:25
How much of the workshop is "Steinbeck" and how much of the workshop is "Country?" Will you be seeing the settings where Steinbecks stories were inspired?

Well, considering that there is probably similar farmland terrain elsewhere in California, you could duplicate a setting. Unless of course you want authenticity. If someone is not familiar with Salinas/Monterey -- How would they know the photograph you show them was not taken in Steinbeck country?

Not that I'd purposely want to deceive anyone, but yes if its countryside you're after,
you could duplicate a setting. Obviously, there will be some characteristics you won't be able to recreate.

On a personal note, I'd want to do some research before setting out on my own without the benefit of a guide. But that's just me. I know California well for a non-native, and I have been blessed with a very keen sense of direction (must be my native-american ancestry). To the best of my memory and knowledge, I've never gotten lost -- even as a kid. :)

venchka
27-May-2009, 10:46
Help me understand this purported offer:

Ken Rockwell and Dave Wyman, will visually explore areas written about by noted American author John Steinbeck, including California's central coast and coastal mountains, and the beautiful Salinas Valley. Those interested can join the group to the tune of $350 which does not accomodations. What do you get for your $350?

Trip leaders
Group dinner, picnic lunch
A variety of field sessions
Photographic instruction
Help with accommodations in (participants are invited to stay at the same motel as the instructors, contact Dave)
Entry to the Monterey Aquarium and Steinbeck Center

Are these types of photograhic trips worth the cost of admission?

I'm game. How much would it cost me to have you show me around California? Where should we meet? What will I be photographing? What format equipment should I bring?

Sorry. I see that the question ahs already been asked.

lilmsmaggie
27-May-2009, 11:51
I'm game. How much would it cost me to have you show me around California? Where should we meet? What will I be photographing? What format equipment should I bring?

Check here:

http://davewyman.net/SteinbeckCountry.html



How much would it cost me to have you show me around California?

even though California is not as big as Texas, it's still pretty big. You might want to consider taking bite size portions instead of ingesting the whole enchilada. :)

Donald Miller
27-May-2009, 11:51
What I sense is that the original poster decided that based upon location the inherent value was not sufficient to warrant the expense. That is, I think, a photographically naive position to take. Location is not as important as the ability to observe and to truly "see". Obviously if the original poster thinks that they know all there is to know about a location and thinks that they have seen all that there is to see then that is an obstacle to ever achieving anything beyond the ability to make outstanding "snapshots". A closed mind is impervious to new things.

venchka
27-May-2009, 11:52
I knew that. I lived in Atwater once upon a time. Grinning.

John Kasaian
27-May-2009, 12:59
Roman Loranc's compositions of the San Joaquin Valley had that effect on me.There is plenty of jaw dropping beauty in very unlikely places if we could only train our eyes to see it.

lilmsmaggie
27-May-2009, 14:08
Obviously if the original poster thinks that they know all there is to know about a location and thinks that they have seen all that there is to see then that is an obstacle to ever achieving anything beyond the ability to make outstanding "snapshots". A closed mind is impervious to new things.

Perhaps, - but I'm not interested in taking "snapshots." I can do that from my backyard. :p To know all that there is to know about a particular location is probably not necessary. But there definetly needs to be an interest.

All I'm saying is, Salinas doesn't peek my photographic interest.

davewyman
15-Jun-2009, 02:55
I've enjoyed reading the comments about the photography tour I conducted, with Ken Rockwell, this past weekend.

Some of the photographs I made alongside the participants are here:

http://www.pbase.com/davewyman/steinback_country__2009

"lilmsmaggie" has brought up some interesting thoughts. What do we humans do with our free time, with our discretionary income, and how do we fix a price on intangibles? Is there value in learning through shared knowledge, or is it better to try to learn in a vacuum?

I'm not sure why lilmsmaggie felt compelled to bring up these ideas in the Large Format Photography Forum, given that the emphasis on the Steinbeck Country outing was on digital, 35mm and medium format photography. Maybe it was a way for a secret admirer to give me some publicity. Or perhaps it was a way for someone who enjoys a good troll and is unable or unwilling to afford the cost of such a venture to vent personal frustrations.

People don't primarily come on photo tours and workshops for the meals, nor necessarily for the locations, whether they are in places like Yosemite, Yellostone, or yes, even Salinas. They come to enjoy the camaraderie with other photographers, to learn from other photographers, and to spend some time with a workshop instructor. I suspect the OP already knew that.

For last weekend's trip, I have no illusions that anyone was there to spend time with me. The draw my was colleague, Ken Rockwell.

To the penny-pinching OP, may you continue to enjoy your reclusive brand of photography. If you never participate in some way on a photography workshop or tour, I doubt you'll offend the instructors or participants. :p Feel free, however, to peruse what you missed over the weekend.

lilmsmaggie
17-Jun-2009, 10:04
To the penny-pinching OP, may you continue to enjoy your reclusive brand of photography. If you never participate in some way on a photography workshop or tour, I doubt you'll offend the instructors or participants. Feel free, however, to peruse what you missed over the weekend.

Maybe you should stick with photography and save the technical aspects of web site maintenance to the professionals.

davewyman
17-Jun-2009, 11:40
Maybe you should stick with photography and save the technical aspects of web site maintenance to the professionals.

I must have struck a nerve.

lilmsmaggie
17-Jun-2009, 12:18
I must have struck a nerve.

No, you just showed your arrogance.

It takes a lot of courage to take cowardly pot shots on the internet. I don’t appreciate being characterized as a “troll.”


It’s too bad that self-centered, vain and arrogant professionals such as you can’t seem to see beyond your own hubris.


I asked and raised a valid question. There was no need for you to get twisted about it.

Lon Overacker
21-Jun-2009, 01:56
Iilmsmaggie,

It seems you have already made up your mind, but I thought I would add a few notes. I worked as an assistant on one of Dave Wyman's workshop/tours in Yosemite a few years back so I can speak from experience. Dave is a great and personable guy; I can't speak for Ken, but I'm quite familiar with his website; just can't speak of him as a person or a worskshop leader.

I haven't attended or been a part of a workshop or tour for many years; As most photographers, I'm independent and prefer to find my own images and love being in nature and exploring things for myself. Having said that, I think there are three basic groups of folks who like, and are willing to pay for, workshops and tours. 1. Beginners who want to learn and have location opportunities. 2. Photographers who are willing to pay to put themselves in wonderful locations and come home with wonderful images and 3. Those who could care less about the location or learning, but enjoy the experience of hanging out with other photographers, shooting the shit about the latest gear, f-stops, or just making friends, and just consider it a vacation.

If you're in one of those groups, I guess it's just a matter of how much money you're willing to pay. If you're not, I'm guessing your question is already answered and the "cost of admission" is a moot point.

Seems to me that if you were a photographer who was interested in the history of the Salinas Valley or interested in the work's of John Steinbeck, "Of Mice and Men," or "The Cannery Row," then you might be interested in this workshop/tour. Otherwise, what's your question?

darr
21-Jun-2009, 07:01
John Steinbeck is one of my all time favorite authors (I see pictures when I read his stories). If I was in California, I would have considered this workshop. I am a retired professional photographer that has done it all with film (shot, pushed, pulled, taught, sold thousands of prints, and screwed-up a few times), but I would have enjoyed hanging out with a group that would have guided me through the areas. The photo-talk and Steinbeck story-talk along the way would have been priceless for me. I would have taken my D200 and enjoyed it all. Sorry I missed this one!