Zone System Beginner

[papergiraffe]

Can someone point me towards the preferred article or book for learning the zone system? I have read alot of threads about it but cant find one which teaches it. Also, if there is a "Better" method for metering B&W with a Pentax Digital Spot I would love to hear about it.

Thanks

[Bruce Watson]

Can someone point me towards the preferred article or book for learning the zone system? I have read alot of threads about it but cant find one which teaches it. Also, if there is a "Better" method for metering B&W with a Pentax Digital Spot I would love to hear about it.

Thanks

Easiest I know Fred Picker's book Zone VI Workshop. Plenty of used copies out there.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Another easy read on the Zone System is Bruce Barnbaum's book, "The Art of Photography".

[darr]

I recently read through Steve Mulligan's Book: Black & White Photography: A Practical Guide (http://www.amazon.com/Black-White-Photography-Practical-Guide/dp/1861084285/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231625799&sr=8-2), and I kid you not, it IS the easiest book written on the zone technique IMO. Plus Steve's B&W work throughout this very affordable book is worth the price alone.

Best,
Darr

PS: The Pentax Digital Spot meter is nice, but it is not the only spot meter in the world for zoning. I sold mine after I realized my old and trusty Sekonic L-488 could do the same thing. I bought the L-488 used in 1992 and I have dropped it a dozen times and had it recalibrated via the repair shop twice in this time. It still measures as accurate as my L-558 Dulmaster. :)

[Brian Ellis]

I used two books, Ansel Adams "The Negative" (which has a lot more than just the zone system) and Picker's book. Both are good. The zone system is very simple, if you start getting confused you're probably reading the wrong book.

[Ken Lee]

What the others have already said:

Zone VI Workshop (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0817405747/qid=1075561755/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/002-7002570-7186453?v=glance&s=books) by Fred Picker

The Negative (http://www.amazon.com/Negative-Ansel-Adams-Photography-Book/dp/0821221868/ref=pd_sim_b_3) by Ansel Adams

[Chuck P.]

Whatever other source book that you may get, absolutely include The Negative as well.

[kev curry]

''The Practical Zone System'' by Chris Johnson...make's the Zone System very accessible for the complete beginner.

[papergiraffe]

Ok, so I have a few questions after doing some reading.

1.) Is the zone system the best way to meter a landscape scene with a Pentax 1 degree spot meter?

2.) If I expose my negative by the zone system.. Do I need to be sure to give directions to the lab to develop my negative per the zone system?

3.) if I use a different method of metering to expose my negative, can I just give my negative to the lab to expose with no special directions and get a correct development?

[Michael Graves]

The two I liked the best were Fred Picker's book (already mentioned above) and The Zone System Manual, by Zakia and White.

[darr]

Ok, so I have a few questions after doing some reading.

1.) Is the zone system the best way to meter a landscape scene with a Pentax 1 degree spot meter?

2.) If I expose my negative by the zone system.. Do I need to be sure to give directions to the lab to develop my negative per the zone system?

3.) if I use a different method of metering to expose my negative, can I just give my negative to the lab to expose with no special directions and get a correct development?

1. IMO, the zone system is the optimum way to meter for a black & white landscape if you follow through with the correct development time. The spot meter is designed for use along with the zone system.

2. Depends, but if your going to be shooting for the zone system, assume: Yes. If you are using the zone system then you understand that you meter for the shadows and develop for the highlights. The highlights may need N+1, N+2, or N-1, N-2 development besides N.

3. Possibly. You need to experiment before you can know these things. ;)

I do not think you understand the zone system completely. The zone system is a system where you shoot (meter) for the shadows and control the development process as much as possible for optimal highlights. That means you need to have the ability to adjust your development times. IMO, it is the best way to shoot Black & White. Others will surely chime in. :)

[papergiraffe]

Darr- I am new to the zone system but the way I understand it is exactly as you described it. I was just making sure I was on the right path. I want to develope my own neg's in the future but need to get comfortable exposing them first. It just seems like the trust must really be there if I use a lab. I have never used a lab to process film other that 35mm so I am just a little uneducated on how well thay take direction on custom processing. I will give it a try.

So to finalize, as I find my shadow area that I want to show detail in and meter it. I then stop it down 2 zones since my meter wants to make that area a V but I want it darker. Now that I have my dorks set for my exposure, I need to access what I want my lights to be developed for right? I would need to see what my lightest area was and note the adjustments to be made in developing. Let me know if I have this wrong. I know I can meter any area, not just shadows that show detail. I just need to know that the reading given by the spot meter will make that area in zone V and I need to correct to what the proper zone I think the area should be exposed for.

Last, and I feel this is a dumb question because I have not made sense of it in my own head. What if I had a gray card and set it in the scene and metered it? My meter would show exactly what the exposure should be for that tone. But what would happen to the rest of my scene?

[darr]

Darr- I am new to the zone system but the way I understand it is exactly as you described it. I was just making sure I was on the right path. I want to develope my own neg's in the future but need to get comfortable exposing them first. It just seems like the trust must really be there if I use a lab. I have never used a lab to process film other that 35mm so I am just a little uneducated on how well thay take direction on custom processing. I will give it a try.

The trust in labs is the reasons some of us develop our own films. My least favorite part of shooting is the chemistry part, but I have been stung by bad lab work years ago. I would feel very insecure expecting superior service now for push/pull requirements in the age of digital. There are I suppose some superior labs that will adjust your development as needed, but it has to be expensive if they have a reputation for being superior. The cost and confidence has certainly made my choices for me.


So to finalize, as I find my shadow area that I want to show detail in and meter it. I then stop it down 2 zones since my meter wants to make that area a V but I want it darker. Now that I have my dorks set for my exposure, I need to access what I want my lights to be developed for right?

Yes. Look at your scene and lets say it is a landscape and you want the clouds in the sky to be the lightest part of your image with detail. Meter the clouds and move from Zone V up to Zone VII.


I would need to see what my lightest area was and note the adjustments to be made in developing. Let me know if I have this wrong. I know I can meter any area, not just shadows that show detail. I just need to know that the reading given by the spot meter will make that area in zone V and I need to correct to what the proper zone I think the area should be exposed for.

The best way I can show you how I do the process is to share a couple of sheets I recorded from recent shoots. Please excuse my scribble, as I have carpal tunnel and at times it is painful especially when I write.

Here is a Normal (N) Development example:

http://cameraartist.com/snaps/normal_dev.jpg

In this example I was shooting a portrait and did not want a lot of depth of field. I choose a shutter speed of 1/4 sec and metered the shadow area I wanted detail in. I recorded Zone V at f2.8 and went down two zones to find where my Zone III area would fall and recorded f/5.6. Then I metered for the highlights. Zone V recorded at f/11 so I went two zones up and found Zone VII at f/5.6. Perfect! If you look at the chart you will see there is no adjustment needed for development.

Here is a Normal -1 (N-1) Development example:

http://cameraartist.com/snaps/normal-1_dev.jpg

This was for a landscape shot and I needed much more depth of field, so I choose to use an aperture of f/22. I metered for the shadows: at Zone V it gave me the exposure of: f/11 @ 1 sec --> moving it down 2 zones --> Zone III = f/22 @ 1 sec

The highlights were metered at Zone V at 64 @ 1 sec --> moving it up three zones, I find I am at Zone VIII at f/22 @ 1 sec. This is 1 stop too many for normal development. Normal development would be Zone VII at f/22 @ 1 sec. So this calls for a development of N-1.



Last, and I feel this is a dumb question because I have not made sense of it in my own head. What if I had a gray card and set it in the scene and metered it? My meter would show exactly what the exposure should be for that tone. But what would happen to the rest of my scene?

Nothing is ever a dumb question, especially when you are brave enough (i.e., smart enough) to ask it! :)

Your exposure meter will give you the average meter reading for the 18% gray card. Think of the 18% gray card as Zone V -- ALWAYS!! Others may comment about reflective, incident, etc. But, hey when you are starting out, just stick to the Zones and use your spot meter. It gets easier over time. I hope I did not take up too much space here. The sheet I made up years ago and have modified it over the years. There is a lot of gibber-jabber on it, so just look at the pencil info.

Kind regards,
Darr

[Brian Ellis]

With respect to #3, you certainly can use other systems and just give the negatives to a lab and let them process. You'll get some perfect results (in the sense that the negative will allow you to make the print you want to make with a minimum of effort), some acceptable results (you can more or less make the print you want to make but with more effort than necessary), and some unacceptable results (you can't make the print you want to make no matter how much effort you expend). The goal of the zone system is to allow you to always be able to make the print you want to make, with as little effort as possible. Not to say effort isn't required, just that it's hopefully less than if you didn't use the zone system.

[bspeed]

I am a newbie, so may I ask, what happens to the Shadows/Negative when the N-1, N+1 development time for highlights are used ?

[darr]

I am a newbie, so may I ask, what happens to the Shadows/Negative when the N-1, N+1 development time for highlights are used ?

They remain as in Normal development.
Development totally controls highlight densities.
Exposure sets shadow densities.

[Vaughn]

Just to add to Darr's accurate description...very little light hits the film in the shadow areas. Only a limited amount of silver has been hit by light. In the mid-tones and hightlights it is the opposite. If 10 "units" (don't worry what the units are) of light hit your shadows about 300+ units are hitting in your highlight areas...which is a heck of a lot more.

So when you develop, those 10 units worth of exposure quickly get developed...with in the first couple minutes or so (this is a generalization) and all the silver in the shadows are developed and nothing else happens there...no matter how long you develop.

But your midtones and highlights are still working away in the developer...and if you let them develop all the way, you could end up with "bullet-proof" negs (extremely dense and blocked up highlights). So one determines (by the Zone system, for example) when to cut off the development to control how far the hightlights develop.

Vaughn

[Sizam]

If the negative will be scanned is there a point in using the zone system? I guess another way to phrase it is by using the Zone system to modify my development process will I get a better negative for scanning or does the Zone system only help with getting a better negative ready for printing to paper?

EDIT:
Upon further reading of the previous two posts it seems obvious that there is merit to the zone system for scanning.

[Mark Sawyer]

I'd say the zone system (and its relatievs, like BTZS) help deliver a negative with the desired densities in the shadows and highlights. Exposure determines the shadow detail, while development determines contrast, insuring that the highlights don't block up, and there's a good tonal range inbetween.

Materials, development methods, and personal aesthetics also play a big part, and I'd guess everyone ends up with their own version of whatever system they choose...

[Joe Forks]

Darr,
I'm trying to learn the zone system as well so forgive me for this question but since you posted the example I had to examine it to see if I understand.

Firstly, aren't we looking for a 5 stop contrast range for (N) normal? In your first example Zone III to Zone VII is 4 stops so why wouldn't that be N+1? Then following that logic your second example should be (N) as it is 5 stops.

I'm just asking, so don't shoot me, this was for my own exercise.

Best
Joe

[Gem Singer]

Joe,

Zone 3,4,5,6,7 is five stops. Count the zones, not the difference between them.

[Joe Smigiel]

... What if I had a gray card and set it in the scene and metered it? My meter would show exactly what the exposure should be for that tone. But what would happen to the rest of my scene?

That would depend on the lighting and subject conditions. Imagine a foggy landscape where you meter the gray card and set the exposure accordingly. Everything will be middle gray with very little range. Dull, drab... In that situation, you probably want to meter the darkest tone and not the gray card, place it low and overdevelop the film to add contrast to the image.

Conversely, if it was a normal sunny landscape and you metered the gray card, the shadows and highlights would probably fall in acceptable zones and you could get away with it.

[Joe Forks]

Gem,
10-4, Thank you for clarifying that. Let me ask on e more directly related question. So this translates exactly to EV as well? I've got an EV of 10 for shadows and 15 for highlights I want to keep, that's 6 stops or N-1. If this is correct it directly conflicts what "ejohnson" wrote in Using the view camera, the source of my confuddlement.

Best
Joe

[Gem Singer]

Joe,

Just to make sure, I got out my trusty Pentax spot meter. Starting with EV 10 and opening to EV 15 increases the exposure by five stops.

I can understand your confusion.

[Joe Forks]

Joe,

I can understand your confusion.


Gem,
Absolutely. There must be hundreds of noobs with 1 stop errors in calculating zone system development based on ejohnson's examples. I just double checked what he wrote and he was at least consistent in counting the difference in stops rather than the total number of stops contained in the contrast range.

The total number of stops makes much more sense of course, because those are exactly the zones that you want to retain detail.

I'm wondering if anyone has noted that error in that chapter before?

Best
Joe

[Nathan Potter]

Guys, an EV range of 10 to 15 is six brightness levels but a difference of 5 stops. This is just a semantics problem that you need to work out in your mind. I remember being confused about this until I just simplified it in my mind - that is I mentally focused on EV values as an absolute density on the negative.

I generally render the tonal values of a scene as how they will appear on the negative while ,I think, most people will try to visualize the scene as a print rather than as a negative. The print visualization is a more logical approach but involves consideration of both the negative and print processing conditions. I simplify this in my mind by realizing that if I can get the contrast range of the negative something close to logD 1.25 then I know I can print it. There are many variations in zone system implementation and you'll develop your own simplifications as you start actual practice but the main thing is to stick with it because it will appear very confusing at first reading.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[darr]

Darr,
I'm trying to learn the zone system as well so forgive me for this question but since you posted the example I had to examine it to see if I understand.

Firstly, aren't we looking for a 5 stop contrast range for (N) normal? In your first example Zone III to Zone VII is 4 stops so why wouldn't that be N+1? Then following that logic your second example should be (N) as it is 5 stops.

I'm just asking, so don't shoot me, this was for my own exercise.

Best
Joe

Hi Joe,

I would never shoot you, well maybe with a camera ;)

Anyhow, if you look at example #1 we do have a five zone spread:
Zone III, Zone IV, Zone V, Zone VI, and Zone VII
You need to count the zones, not the space between them.
And in example #2, it is a six zone spread, so that is why we adjustment our development time for five zones.
In the beginning I use to call them stops as well, and I think it screwed with my math, so I have learned to call them Zones and maybe that will be helpful to others.

Best,
Darr

[Joe Forks]

Guys, an EV range of 10 to 15 is six brightness levels but a difference of 5 stops. This is just a semantics problem that you need to work out in your mind. I remember being confused about this until I just simplified it in my mind - that is I mentally focused on EV values as an absolute density on the negative.



Nate,
Thanks. I definitely understand what you are telling me. I just wanted to note that is not what is written in "using the view camera". Just look at the bottom right of page 91 and he clearly makes the same mistake citing a zone III to Zone VII range and calling it four stop range. That is literally incorrect, it's a 5 stop range.

Thus the source of my confusion.

And Darr, thank you very much, I got it now! :)

[Donald Qualls]

I'm just going to insert here that I've read several mentions of adjusting development times, when in fact what's needed is to adjust the contrast of the finished negative. Yes, the commonest way to exercise this control is by developing for more or less time, but this also changes the film speed, requiring you to adjust the total exposure after you decide what development a scene is going to call for. It's also possible to alter negative contrast by changing developer (which will probably also require adjusting film speed, though possibly by less -- especially in the n-minus direction -- than changing development time) or, my preferred method, by altering agitation.

Altering agitation doesn't work in a Jobo or BTZS processing environment, where constant motion is required to process with too little developer to cover the film while it stands between agitation cycles, and in my experience doesn't work well in trays (the edges of sheets will develop more than the centers when attempting a contraction, because it's almost impossible to keep the stack perfectly squared up), but it does work well for roll film in tanks and for sheet film in tubes with enough liquid to cover the film while the tube stands.

I consider agitating every three minutes (compared to the standard one minute cycle) equivalent to developing 30% less, which is about N minus one and a half with most film-developer combinations. Obviously, it's easy to add a little time to get to N minus one -- and since you've added a little time, you don't lose film speed (in fact, you may gain a little bit, though in my experience too little to bother compensating). Similarly, agitate every fifth minute and you'll drop another step, roughly to N minus three, but you can get N minus two by adding a little time (testing might reveal that two minutes and four minutes are perfect N-1 and N-2 agitations).

Key to this method is that shadow development is practically independent of agitation, because the halide has received so little exposure that local exhaustion or inhibition by developer oxidation products (the two main contrast controlling mechanisms) don't set in; thus, altering the frequency of agitation controls the amount of inhibition that affects the most exposed areas: more agitation means more development.

The applicability to Zone Sytem here is obvious -- if you're willing to use a development method that's amenable to agitation control (deep tanks, filled tubes, or inversion type tanks -- or trays with a single film or layer of films), you can, with a little testing, learn to adjust contrast without adjusting processing time (there's even a range of N-plus available, by agitating every 30 seconds or continuously -- in my experience, continuous agitation goes a bit more than N plus one, but not quite N plus two, compared to a one minute agitation cycle -- but adding a little time and gaining a small amount of speed is much less worrisome than losing speed by cutting time). For my own work, I've generally set my N based on agitation every third minute, which gives me a good range of both expansion and contraction without any change in film speed.

[Bruce Watson]

Adjusting development by adjusting agitation is certainly an interesting idea. Nice out-of-the-box thinking!

[Chris Dunham]

Can someone point me towards the preferred article or book for learning the zone system? I have read alot of threads about it but cant find one which teaches it. Also, if there is a "Better" method for metering B&W with a Pentax Digital Spot I would love to hear about it.

Thanks

BTZS Expodev, it is a very accurate system that is easy to use, it's that simple. I wouldent consider going back to the Zone System now.

Chris.

PS. Use it with an incident meter rather than the spot meter.

[Chuck P.]

Firstly, aren't we looking for a 5 stop contrast range for (N) normal? In your first example Zone III to Zone VII is 4 stops so why wouldn't that be N+1? Then following that logic your second example should be (N) as it is 5 stops.

In the ZS, "normal" is determined for some, including me, by developing Zone VIII (some may target zone VII for their calibration) to some target negative density, I use 1.3 above fb+f. Alan Ross on his website, is experimenting with calibrating his normal development time from a Zone IX net negative density of 1.45. My point is that stating that "normal" is defined by some set subject brightness range is oversimplified and limiting, IMO.

I have a family of curves for tmx&d-76 1:1 (I tried to upload it but it won't work, it keeps asking me to login again, IDK). Anyway, I can make a zone I shadow "placement" and if my important highlight "falls" on zone VIII, then I am developing "normal" for 8:00 min, that's a 7 stop i.e., 7 zone range. If it falls on zone IX, then n-1; if zone X, then n-2; zone VI, n+2, and zone VII, then n+1. In each case, the negative is developed to the same contrast range of 1.3 - 0.1 for 1.2. The 0.1 is the net negative density at zone I for determining the EI.

In the ZS, expansions are defined by developing low landing highlight values to the "normal" net negative density for zone VIII, in my case, of 1.3 and contractions are defined by developing important zone IX and X brightnesses to the same "normal" net negative density for zone VIII of 1.3. Not uncommon for a compensating developer or a highly dilute standard developer such as hc-110 to also achieve greater contractions.

[coops]

PS. Use it with an incident meter rather than the spot meter.

How do you account for areas with no shadow? Also, where do you point the meter? I have read at the camera, slightly above the camera, at a 45 deg angle and so on. I am a little confused by this. I do have the Expodev but have not yet had a chance to use it and feel I will be doing it wrong. Sorry for not staying on thread, but would like to know. Cheers

[Chris Dunham]

How do you account for areas with no shadow? Also, where do you point the meter? I have read at the camera, slightly above the camera, at a 45 deg angle and so on. I am a little confused by this. I do have the Expodev but have not yet had a chance to use it and feel I will be doing it wrong. Sorry for not staying on thread, but would like to know. Cheers

Best way is to just jump in and try it, you won't break it and the worst that can happen is you'll use a few sheets of film. I aim the meter straight back at the the lens on the whole. You don't have to worry about areas of no shadow, just meter the highest and lowest EV values within the subject punch that into the palm and let expodev do it's thing.

Chris.

[coops]

I shot my first few sheets with Expodev and the first one I developed looked really good. The scee was very contrasty with bright sun on white painted walls, and I was able to not only hold the highlight detail, but also the shadow detail inside the building. Promising start. I will try and attach the image here. I may not use the spotmeter for a long time.

[Andrew O'Neill]

By looking at your example, one would assume that the densities of the shadow areas on the negative are very thin...is this a scan of the negative or the print?

[coops]

It's a scan

[christopher walrath]

I hear a lot of questions on here about stop ranges and EV and placement and what to meter. Creative Image Maker is going to have a beginners article on the Zone System in February but here's a little run down of the whole spectrum (no pun intended)

The Zone System

A way to control the light values from exposure that will be recorded on your negatives and ultimately your prints.

You have (classically) eleven zones from Zone 0 (near black) through to Zone X (near white). Zone V is middle gray or 18% gray. You will usually get good textural detail from Zones II to VIII (seven stop textural range). You will get at least a tonal difference in Zone I from Zone II and in Zone IX from Zone VIII so that translates to a nine stop dynamic range (Zones I through IX). Zone 0 will show up as black and Zone X will show up as white.

If you meter a scene and expose per metering recommendation you will get a Zone V exposure, be it snow or a pile of coal. Following the meter's recommendations will give you a gray image. Now this does work best with a spot meter. However any meter will do once you know its angle at which it meters your subject, be it 1, 5 or 30 degrees. Take a reading of your most important shadow. Record it. Meter your most important highlight. Record that. Now you will be able to see detail from Zone II to Zone VIII, that is a seven stop range. You want to place those pre metered values within that range if possible.

Now quicky on the EV Index before we continue. The EV Index adds numeric quantities given to shutter speed and aperture setting to give a numeric value to an exposure combination.

S/S 1 second-0, 1/2-1, 1/4=2. 1/8=3. 1/15=4. 1/30=5. 1/60=6. 1/125=7. 1/250=8. 1/500=9. 1/1000=10.
Apertures. f/1=0. f/1.4=1. f/2=2. f/2.8=3. f/4=4. f/5.6=5. f/8=6. f/11=7. f/16=8. f/22=9. f/32=10.

You add your settings to get your EV number. Then ANY combination that has the same EV number will give the same amount of exposure.
Example: 1/125th of a second at f/5.6. Your EV number is EV12. So that would mean that 1/60@f/8 and 1/500@f/2.8 would provide equivalent amounts of exposure as their individual values add up to 12.

Now your meter tells you that your exposure for the shadow should be EV10 and your highlight should be EV15 (your subject luminosity range or SBR is 6 stops; 10,11,12,13,14,15). That would be your six stop range. You could place your shadow on Zone III for good detail but that would put your highlight on Zone VIII (II,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII), perilously close to washing out. SO you place your highlight on Zone VII instead if you think your shadow won't suffer much by being on Zone II (II,III,IV,V,VI,VII). Personally I would expose for the highlights and print for the shadows. Once a negative washes out white there is no chance of retreiving that detail. A slightly better chance if that detail is in a shadow.

Whatever your decision you count from one extreme until you reach the EV number that you have placed on Zone V and make that exposure.

As to using a gray card, place it in front of your meter with the same light falling on it as your subject. You have a Zone V reading for that light. Anything else you meter with the same EV result as your Zone V reading will appear the same color as your gray card. You can also use your hand in a pinch. Meter the same way and stop down once for your Zone V as caucasian skin is generally best rendered on Zone VI in a portrait. Or at least that what I have heard. But I have used both methods in the past when needed.

One way to cheat (this being from a film photographer) is to take your cell phone along. Take a picture of your subject area in the black and white mode to see what your subject will look like when rendered in monochrome. Cheaper than a Polaroid, especially these days.

Hope this helped.

[Chuck P.]

I shot my first few sheets with Expodev and the first one I developed looked really good. The scee was very contrasty with bright sun on white painted walls, and I was able to not only hold the highlight detail, but also the shadow detail inside the building. Promising start. I will try and attach the image here. I may not use the spotmeter for a long time.

Of course, it's always important that obtaining a well executed negative is central to obtaining the best fine print, however it is done. The photo you posted is just as easily obtainable with the spot meter and use of the ZS (it is so fundamentally simple and fluid in application). I'm just trying to understand what the difficulty is when it comes to using it and the spot meter. Good use of the ZS and a spot meter will provide the exposure and development you need for any scene you encounter and it will be quicker than inputting data into a Expodev tool. I'm just curious.

[coops]

Of course, it's always important that obtaining a well executed negative is central to obtaining the best fine print, however it is done. The photo you posted is just as easily obtainable with the spot meter and use of the ZS (it is so fundamentally simple and fluid in application). I'm just trying to understand what the difficulty is when it comes to using it and the spot meter. Good use of the ZS and a spot meter will provide the exposure and development you need for any scene you encounter and it will be quicker than inputting data into a Expodev tool. I'm just curious.


For me its easier. Inputing data takes me about 15 seconds which is probably 15 secs longer than it takes you I know. I was never able to get consistently good results with the ZS. I think using the Expodev takes the work out figuring out exposure and dev times and I feel I can better concentrate on composition. Purely a personal thing, but it's made the world of difference to my shots. Today I shot inside an old building with strong light coming in the windows, I took the readings. shot the film and the negs look really good. Can't wait till they dry.

[Chuck P.]

I think using the Expodev takes the work out figuring out exposure and dev times and I feel I can better concentrate on composition. Purely a personal thing, but it's made the world of difference to my shots.

Good enough, whatever it takes to make that difference, that's what counts, of course. Thanks for answering.

Chuck

[h2oman]

I'll second Darr's recommendation for Mulligan's book. I'm not as big a fan of his photos (although there are some good ones in there), but the section on the zone system is very straightforward. Read it FIRST, then try The Negative and/or Picker's book. (I got it through interlibrary loan, but liked it well enough to spring for a used copy from Amazon.)

I make a living teaching college math, and I can tell you that there is nothing that will hinder a student's understanding more than being too detailed (try the word pedantic in your dictionary) the first time through something. Unfortunately many of us techno-geeks feel a compulsion to include every little detail. Mulligan resists that temptation. If a person gets what he is saying, then that can be modified as more info is received.

[JasonT]

I'm just starting to look at the zone system as well. What is a good rule of thumb for development adjustment? For instance, if N development is 8 min, what would N-1 be? N+1?

[Chuck P.]

I'm just starting to look at the zone system as well. What is a good rule of thumb for development adjustment? For instance, if N development is 8 min, what would N-1 be? N+1?

After testing to find a personal EI, it's all based on development time testing to determine the "normal" developing time to get a zone VII or VIII to develop to some target net density, in my case it is developing to get the curve to cross zone VIII at a net density of 1.3 (I've included the attachment of a family of curves to illustrate).

Without testing of any kind, you can use the box speed and for N+1, increase the development time by 15 -20% and observe the results; for N-1, perhaps reduce by 10%. Observe the results and adjust.

[Nathan Potter]

Rather than using the zone system you can use an alternative that I have found simpler for some applications especially when I've neglected to record all the SB data when taking the picture. Use divided development or two part (so called) development. The idea is simple - the first bath is a developer and a restrainer while the second bath contains an accelerating agent. A short time in the first bath results in the emulsion absorbing the developer while the second bath with the accelerator uses the developer remaining in the emulsion to develop most of the image. There is a natural end point to the image formation when the developer in the emulsion is exhausted. As a result the sensitometric curve you get can be highly linear yielding very good highlight and shadow detail despite a wide range in the original scene. For a commercial two part developer I've used Diafine but you can mix your own soup also. Anchells' Cookbook has some detail about the process and you can Google more info.

I just checked one of my darkroom notebooks and find 2.5 minutes for each bath. Of course no water rinse between baths. IIRC a recent issue of View Camera mag featured a writeup of the process by Sandy King. Basically when done to perfection you will resolve a long tonal range in the negative. It appears that I was getting about a log 1.2 max. density but I was printing very hard with a semi point source enlarger head. This is a technique worth looking into and should be highly amenable to high rez B&W negative scanning.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[JasonT]

Thanks Chuck. That is a good starting point. I established my N+1 time today; more to come as soon as we get some suitable weather.

I don't have a way to measure densities. I currently have Grade 2 paper on hand that I'm contact printing on to evaluate contrast range. I make sure to take several shots of the same scene and fine tune my development through trial and error. It's not super technical, but I was able to make a beautiful contact print of my back yard. :)

[John Bowen]

Can someone point me towards the preferred article or book for learning the zone system? I have read alot of threads about it but cant find one which teaches it. Also, if there is a "Better" method for metering B&W with a Pentax Digital Spot I would love to hear about it.

Thanks

Fred Picker's book "The Zone VI Workshop" has been recommended a few times. Fred also wrote nearly 100 newsletters over a 20+year period.

Bruce Barlow's "Finely Focused" does a wonderful job of beginning with the basics, providing the tools you'll need to determine your personal film speed and development times for N, N+, N- etc. The book is on CD and can be ordered from Bruce's www.circleofthesunproductions.com the cost, including postage is $25. I purchased a copy for my kids, but it also includes a wealth of exercises to help the more experienced photographer continue to grow.

While you are at www.circleofthesunproductions.com check out Bruce's free articles.

[Chuck P.]

Thanks Chuck. That is a good starting point. I established my N+1 time today; more to come as soon as we get some suitable weather.

I don't have a way to measure densities. I currently have Grade 2 paper on hand that I'm contact printing on to evaluate contrast range. I make sure to take several shots of the same scene and fine tune my development through trial and error. It's not super technical, but I was able to make a beautiful contact print of my back yard. :)

There's certainly empirical methods to determine film speed and development time without a densitometer, but I find them more exhaustive and time consuming. A densitometer greatly simplifies the entire process. In case you are interested, the books by John P. Schaefer: Ansel Adams Guide Basic Techniques of Photography Books 1 & 2 are both excellent texts, IMO. If you can score a densitometer in the future, Book 2 will show you how to test for personal EI and development times---it is much easier than you probably think.

The family of curves that I displayed was completed with exposing 8 sheets of film; one sheet for the speed test and 7 sheets to dial in the development times, I was able to interpolate 2 of the times to hit my target. I store my D-76 in 16oz. bottles and I finished all the testing with 8 bottles---1 gallon; each pint diluted 1:1 in a Combi-plan tank. I completed the speed test and the dev time testing in one weekend, I'm rather slow and deliberate, was in no hurry.

Chuck

[Peter De Smidt]

I'm sure that many of use here would be happy to read densities for you. I would, for example, and maybe there's a member with a densitometer near you. I agree with Chuck: using a densitometer is easier than empirical methods.