Hahnemuhle Photo Rag users

[Robert Glieden]

I've been using Harman's Glossy FB and like it very much. However, I've learned I miss the look of a matt print. I've used Epson Ultrasmooth and have been pleased for the most part but I would like whiter whites and sheets smaller than 13x19.

I've read a lot of good things about Hahnemuhle's Photo Rag but am a bit confused where to start with them (a lot of choices). Anyone tried their "Bright White"? I'm hoping this could make the highlights snap?

It should be known that I generally print using ABW mode on my 3800 and just selecting Epson's preset papers for the closest match. Not really interested in profiles as I'm a big fan of simplicity... Please inform me on what settings you've found to work well for you. I'm also open to other brands of paper keeping longevity in mind.

Thanks much,

Rob
www.robertglieden.com

[Oren Grad]

If longevity is a concern, you face a tradeoff - the papers with "whiter whites" all achieve that by incorporating brightening agents, which are likely to be unstable.

Here's Hahnemuhle's take on the problem:

http://www.hahnemuehle.com/index.php?mid=1595&lng=us

[Robert Glieden]

Good to know, thanks for the link. I was on their site but didn't come across that page.
Thanks,

Rob
www.robertglieden.com

[Ben Hopson]

I have been using Photo Rag for several years and started out using the Bright White paper. After trying out the natural paper, without optical brighteners, I found the results worked for me and switched to that paper. It would probably be to your benefit to try samples of both and see which you like best. Moab Entrada Fine Art Natural is another matt paper I have had good results with. I also use Harman FB Gloss for much of my work on an Epson 4880. The matt printing is done on a 7600 using the Image Print Rip.

[Robert Glieden]

Thanks Ben, will look into the Moab as well.
Keep em coming...
Thanks,
Rob
www.robertglieden.com

[D. Bryant]

Thanks Ben, will look into the Moab as well.
Keep em coming...
Thanks,
Rob
www.robertglieden.com
Another 100% cotton rag matt paper to try is Red River Aurora Art White and Natural White. The White has some optical brightners the Natural does not. They are very affordable papers and be used with the Red River profiles with good results. These papers emulate Velvet Fine art and Epson Enhanced Matt.

Don Bryant

[john collins]

The Crane Museo Portfolio Rag is a matte paper that I use almost exclusively. It's natural white but looks good to me - I started off with Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl which has optical brighteners. I use an Image Print RIP on a 9800.

[Gary Samson]

Bob,
If you decide to try Moab Entrada Bright White Paper using the ABW mode on your 3800, I would suggest that you use the Watercolor Paper-Radiant White setting or Velvet Fine Art Paper which is under Media Type for the best results. Good luck.

[venchka]

Moab Entrada Natural Rag 300 with Moab's profile downloaded from their web site on my ancient Epson 1280 works for me. Color or black & white.

[Brian Ellis]

I have a box of Hahnemuhle Photo Rag - Smooth Surface and I like it but probably won't buy any more when the box is used up. It's pretty expensive and I like Moab/Legion Entrada Rag Bright White just as well for less money. I've also used the Entrada Natural and liked it too. For both papers I downloaded the profiles for my printer (Epson 3800) from the manufacturers web sites. The web sites will tell you which Epson paper setting to use but of course there's more to a profile than that. I'm not sure how you do it without a profile but if it's working for you I guess it's working.

[PViapiano]

Check out paper sample packages from various places, ie, Atlex...

Just Google them...

[D. Bryant]

Check out paper sample packages from various places, ie, Atlex...

Just Google them...


Check out Inkjetart.com as well.

http://www.inkjetart.com/cart/sample-packs-c-1676.html?osCsid=9cqnvqeedpsnm6ng9kuhjog4t7

Don Bryant

[nathanm]

Red River Aurora Fine Art Natural. I try not to think of all the range I am losing and instead focus on the sweet ass zero glare. You can punch flash your print with a digicam and get a perfectly fine photo. Neato.

[Robert Glieden]

Thanks all. I ran more glossy fb al through yesterday with some new images and well, they looked really good. If it ain't broke don't fix it... That said, I will try Moab for sure and look into Red River more. I really like Moab's prices and should find it locally.

Appreciate it,

Rob

[neil poulsen]

If longevity is a concern, you face a tradeoff - the papers with "whiter whites" all achieve that by incorporating brightening agents, which are

Thanks for the link. That's interesting to know. In fact, our local pro store was suggesting that the Photo Rag had no brighteners. But, I found out differently when I developed profiles for the paper.

Photo Rag is a nice paper. I find it to have good saturation, especially for a matte paper. Also, the darks are darker than other, less expensive papers that I've used. I use it for my portfolio pieces and for color work that I like.

[nathanm]

I just about gasped when I pulled out a box of old prints made with my Epson 1280. The blacks are SO much deeper even on matte paper, than the Epson K3 pigment inks. The newer prints are smoother and with more fine detail, but man that was some awesome DMax. It's hard to entertain pigment-induced fantasies about longevity when such inky blackness is staring you in the eye. Damn.

[nathanm]

Although it is a bit of a pain, you can coat matte papers with gloss sprays and make them pop. But I never tried it the other way, so as a test I coated some Harman Gloss with this matte Krylon. (The top left half) It knocks down the glare and gives it a stochastic feel, but it isn't doing any favors for the contrast. Ick. I've coated Aurora Fine Art Natural with other glossier coatings and got the blacks to deepen in a very favorable manner. Seems like it's six of one\half dozen of the other with these inks and papers. The only way I got BOTH no off-axis glare AND deep blacks were the naughty dye inks.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3115/3158159437_2ace35f021_b.jpg

[ljsegil]

I find the quality of the newer Baryta gloss papers, particularly the Harman, extremely appealing and no longer print matte nearly as often as I used to (which formerly was >90% of the time, Epson Ultrasmooth, Velvet Fine Art, and Crane Museo II being my former favorites over the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag which I found very muddy in the shadows), now I probably use the Harman FB Al gloss or the Ilford Galerie Gold Fiber Silk for almost everything I print. Crane Museo Silver Rag is a very nice paper with a gloss intermediate between the newer papers and the older matte varieties, it does have a significant surface texture, but I find it very pleasing for the sort of print that doesn't take well to the full glossy look but wants more Dmax and pop than the matte papers sometimes provide.
I find the current selection of papers allows creation of different looks for a given print, almost all of them excellent, sometimes dramatically and sometimes only subtly different from each other, giving you more control over your final product. I think with a favorite working paper from each of the classes (Baryta glossy, matte versions now available but I have not tested them, traditional matte, and Silver Rag standing alone) you can accomplish almost any finished look you might desire with a good inkjet printer and ink set. I believe this to be a good time to be printing in the inkjet world (although not cheap).
LJS

[Lenny Eiger]

I've read a lot of good things about Hahnemuhle's Photo Rag but am a bit confused where to start with them (a lot of choices).

It should be known that I generally print using ABW mode on my 3800 and just selecting Epson's preset papers for the closest match. Not really interested in profiles as I'm a big fan of simplicity... Please inform me on what settings you've found to work well for you.
Rob


I have been using Hahnemuhle PhotoRag for years. It's a superb paper. You may find others in its class, but you won't find a paper that is better. I have a personal aversion to what I call the "slinky" papers, or the baryta coated ones. Personal preference...

There are other approaches, rice papers, and every other kind of alternative. But for a great rag paper, it fits the bill.

I took a look at your site. It would fit the aesthetic you are working in very nicely. Hahnemuhle does have canned profiles. I would also suggest, given your work, that you take a look at black and white inks. Cone (inkjetmall.com) has a series of offerings in different tonal ranges and the QTR RIP is only $50. It will take you much further than the ABW. Superb quality...

Lenny

[Robert Glieden]

Lenny,

I've looked at those inks before and have looked into them further upon your mention. I would need to sell a lot of prints before I could pull the plug on that system. They are tempting though as one of my favorite photographers, Tom Mallonee speaks highly of that process as well. A 90mm lens is higher on the priority list at this point, as I only have a 135mm and am feeling limited.

Thanks to all for chiming in on this, but as we've gone about it, I've printed some more new images on Glossy Fb and really like the way snow scenes look on it. I thought I'd prefer snow on rag, but glossy is going them justice - at least in my humble opinion... I now know where to start if my mind changes again.

Much appreciation,

Rob

www.robertglieden.com

[jim kitchen]

Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308 happened to be a paper I truly loved, while using Cone inks. I found that combination to be extraordinary...

After one year, I had a few clients return their images, because the images were contaminated with a "yellow" stain. I reprinted the images and I decided that I could not use that paper going forward, because of the incremental replacement cost, the client's time, my time, and the embarrassment of a failed image. I could repair the stained image, using Hahnemuhle's suggestions, but I decided I did not have the time nor the funds to replace any future images that may have the same issue. I decided that I would use Museo Silver Rag to replace every stained image, and I would use Museo Silver Rag from that point forward...

It seems that this staining issue was limited to a small batch of processed paper, but the impact became too widespread causing Hahnemuhle to initiate limited returns. Hahnemuhle suggested that the paper could change if the images were stored in steel drawer cabinets, which my images were, prior to being matted, mounted, signed, and framed. My mounted, matted, and signed images would reside in a gallery's steel drawer cabinet for weeks, prior to being framed, where the images were sealed in "Crystal Clear Bags" too.

That said, the attached image presents the stain that plagued my images. To date, I replaced more than one dozen 24X30 images, and that is a big "ouch"...

I should be clear with the above comments, that this image staining issue was not directly related to Cone inks and Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308, but to the paper fault itself. I should also be clear that Hahnemuhle recognized the paper fault issue, and initiated a limited return policy, but unfortunately I could not take the time to participate in their return offering, because my images were returning at different time intervals, and unfortunately outside Hahnemuhle's time limitations too.

jim k

[Stephen Best]

I have been using Hahnemuhle PhotoRag for years. It's a superb paper. You may find others in its class, but you won't find a paper that is better.

Try Canson Infinity Rag Photographique 310 or Arches Velin Museum Rag.

[neil poulsen]

Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308 happened to be a paper I truly loved, while using Cone inks. I found that combination to be extraordinary...

After one year, I had a few clients return their images, because the images were contaminated with a "yellow" stain.

jim k

Wow! That's terrible, especially for the price one pays for Hahnemuhle.

Is this still an issue? I use Photo Rag 188. Has Hahnemuhle found the problem and fixed it?

Has it affected any of their other papers?

[jim kitchen]

Dear Neil,

I do not know if the 308 staining issue persists, because I abandoned the paper nor do I know if this issue affects any other Hahnemuhle paper product. I did follow up with Jon Cone to see if the issue still plagued his images, and our conversations simply acknowledged that the issue existed, that Hahnemuhle had a correction plan in place, and that Jon had replacement costs too. I believe Jon indicated that he was in the process of searching for a replacement paper at that time also...

I would like to believe that my image replacement program is complete, because my stained images were produced within days of each other, and the images were printed on the same roll of 308 paper. I believe that Hahnemuhle completely resolved this issue.

jim k

[PViapiano]

Is there a lot number or other defining symbol for the defective paper?

I still have some sealed boxes of the stuff...

[Photojeep]

Jim Kitchen,
When did this problem and the resulting recall occur?
I too have some of this paper in unopened boxes.

Thanks,
Randy

[Peter von Gaza]

I used Hahnemuhle Photo Rag for years (for B&W) before experimenting with Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl (Luster-like paper). I now use Fine Art Pearl for all my commercial work and print sales. This paper is amazing and IMHO blows Photo Rag out of the water for B&W printing (better highlights and for me about 1 more stop of shadow detail). This cost differential between Photo Rag and Fine Art Pearl is insignificant, however one must print using Photo Black inks. The only problem for me was that when I started printing my work on this paper and delivering it to the galleries that carry my work I had to replace everything in stock that was printed on Photo Rag. Sigh...

I work my prints using cheap Epson heavyweight matt paper and then gallery prints are made from the same images by just decreasing highlights by 1 unit and brightening shadows by 1-2 units in Shadow/Highlights in Photoshop. I print using QuadTone Rip with an "ancient" Epson 4000. I can't imagine getting better results.

We still use gobs and gobs of PhotoRag within our business, but for printing fine art giclees of original color paintings. The richness of colors from PhotoRag is second to none for this type of work.

My only real suggestion is that you get a printer that allows automatic switching between Matt and Photo Black inks, otherwise the game gets too expensive.

Cheers,
Peter

[jim kitchen]

Dear Photojeep and PViapiano,

My records indicate that the images were created during the months of March, and April 2006, from two or three rolls of twenty-four inch Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308 paper. The staining issue surfaced one year later, where the client notifications rose immediately, and where my replacement costs followed suit. As I mentioned earlier, the replacements were limited to twelve or so images. I was instructed to contact Hahnemuhle directly, once the issue surfaced by Jon Cone, because Jon had the same issue too. If you have a lot number on your paper roll and, or box, you could contact Hahnemuhle through their website and ask Hahnemuhle whether your inventory could be subject to this staining issue. The issue seems to be limited to a very small production run, early in 2006.

I do not have the roll papers' lot numbers, and I believe the issue was limited to the rolled paper only. Unfortunately, I cannot be more specific than that because I do not have that information available. My replacement cost included the framed image's return shipment to the gallery, the reprinting cost, the reframing cost, and the shipment cost back to the institutions, the private owners, and to the businesses that purchased the original framed images. I decided to replace the images immediately, absorb the incremental costs, and move from the paper going forward. However, I cannot forget how wondrous that paper with the Cone ink set happened to be... :)

I should also add that I never pursued a reimbursement from Hahnemuhle due to my own time constraint and possible delays, although the option was probably present for the paper cost only from Hahnemuhle...

The staining issue associated with my images disappeared after April 2007, but I am afraid that there is another stained image out there, waiting to be noticed, and wanting to be replaced.

jim k

[Tyler Boley]

this issue is not limited to PhotoRag, though it has been most documented with it. Since the very beginning of coated ink jet papers I have seen it here and there, everything from the very first Somerset Enhanced which I beta tested, to German Etching, William Turner, PhotoRag, and some Epson papers. I'm sure others would do it too.
These coatings want to receive, that's one reason they work so well taking ink, and so they are a bit like the canary in the coal mine. A great deal of care must be taken with their environment, whether storage environment or framing. They will pull chemicals right out of the air, even through other porous materials like cardboard, etc.. Adhesives in particular outgas chemicals that yellow stain these coatings. I've seen a stain the exact shape of the packing tape on the outside of the packaging, inside on the print. Humidity encourages the process. I've even seen a yellow stain the exact shape of Epson's own roll spring clip, after removed from a roll. It's coated with vinyl, which outgasses.
Be very careful of the adhesives used in a matte/frame construction, and the makeup of your print storage environment.
I have been clearbagging all my prints for years, never use mounting adhesives etc., and have never had a problem when being careful. There are adhesives that work, so if needed some education on that matter will be needed.

We're still in the infancy of many of these materials, exaggerated care is warranted for now...
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/

[Robert Glieden]

Look at the can of worms I opened up! In all seriousness, however, this is really good to know. I've benefitted from hearing this and I'm sure others are as well.

Thanks again,

Rob

www.robertglieden.com

[Tyler Boley]

needs to be common knowledge.
Hahnemuhle has made some moves to help the situation, but the whole thing is far too quiet for me. How much good is an acid free 100% rag base if the coating is going to stain?
By the way, oddly, the stain will disappear with a lot of UV exposure.
Tyler

[briancorll]

Personally, I vote for Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin. Can't get enough of that paper....