Yet One More Reason to Hate Paypal

[CP Goerz]

I've just finished a long and unproductive call with Paypal I'd like to tell you about that may be of help to any other Ebay sellers...


Some background....A buyer in Russia bought some film from me, I shipped it via priority mail. The buyer doesn't have the film yet and the USPS website shows the package as having left the USA, it was sent on the 21st November and is overdue by my estimate.



The buyer has filed a claim and the funds are on hold, I spoke to paypal who informed me that since the package was sent uninsured I am liable for any mishap till it arrives in the hands of the buyer and is marked as 'delivered' whether they pay for/ask for or want insurance or not.


It makes no difference that I have physical proof of shipping nor that the buyer didn't want insurance I am still on the hook. Apparently its the same policy for items here in the US as well.



Whether the buyer wants insurance or not, complains about high shipping costs etc you HAVE to charge insurance to cover your @ss as paypal will in all likelihood charge me or you for the loss of the package. Yet another reason why I damn well hate that f&**#ng company!


CP Goerz.

[PViapiano]

Your problem isn't with PayPal...

There's two things here that you should avoid in the future. One, if you're in the US, ship only to US, Canada and Australia. Sorry, but this is the most reliable. Russia and eastern Europe, and China can be tough for deliveries. Most of the horror stories end up being from these places.

Two, always buy insurance regardless of what the buyer wants. When someone asks me for shipping costs, I calculate the total with insurance and delivery confirmation, add it up and give them the total.

PayPal has done nothing wrong. It's not up to them to make sure the delivery happens properly, otherwise they'd be on the hook for every mishap and thief in the system.

[BrianShaw]

Yup... that helps clarify things for me.

1. Always insure... for the protection of the seller.
2. Never ship internationally - it takes an unpredictable amount of time and tracking is too difficult because is is out of the USPS hands at that point.

It has very little to do with PayPal in my opinion.

[CP Goerz]

Well I can see your point but disagree slightly.


My problem IS with paypal as they are holding my feet to the fire on this delivery. If I were to hand deliver an item to every buyer I could see them making me the responsible party but that's why we have shipping companies, they are entrusted with the job of delivery which I paid for and who should be responsible. Paypal are holding my funds, they are the ones who will make me pay for the lost item even though I have proof of shipping it. So in my mind Paypal ARE at fault, they are making me the one to take the fall/eat the costs as the buyer will get ALL of his money back while I will be out the shipping costs AND the items.





I already have minor complaints about shipping charges and to add an extra layer of charge invites a lowering of the series of 'stars' that a buyer can leave in regard to costs. Bear in mind that when it falls below a certain percentage you lose favour with Ebay and can be blocked from selling.



A buyer in a 'blocked' country as you suggest can still bid and still be high bidder and still send you funds via paypal so its no guarantee of protection.

[BrianShaw]

I understand your mild disagreement. It is a problem of "boundaries". Where is the boundary of responsibility for delivery in a sale?

Some sellers feel the boundary, at which they relinquish liability, is when they (the seller) hands it over to a shipper - like USPS.

Most buyers feel the boundary is at their front door - when they have received the package the seller is absolved of responsibility to deliver.

I have no idea where USPS feels the responsiblity for delivery begins or ends, but I suspect that they simply do the best they can and assume that insurance will reimburse the seller (shipper) if the item fails to reach the buyer (intended recipient).

I agree with one thing... it sucks to be stuck in the middle of a situation in which there is no control and no information.

[CP Goerz]

Yep, its a slippery slope alright.


Buyers I think may need to be a little more lenient when it comes to shipping costs if they expect 'cradle to grave' coverage.

[Ernest Purdum]

Andrew, I have had somewhat similar problem, but in this case the villain was not PayPal, but the postal services of the U.S.A. and Germany. I sent a payment by registered mail and the tracking number never got me outside of the United States.

Because the item was quite desirable, I wound up paying twice.

[e]

Always fully insure.
Ship EMS thru post office for expensive items, or better yet...ship DHL. Charge customer for FULL SHIPPING + insurance...or don't sell to that customer. If the customer is cheap and doesnt want to pay for insurance..forget em...
In other words...protect yourself...

[Donald Miller]

I sort of think that for a transaction to be completed that two things must happen. The first is that the buyer receives the purchase and second the seller be paid for the mdse. If either of those conditions are not met a transaction has not occurred. The second action is predicated on the first having happened.

The question is whose agent is the shipper. The shipper selected was either an action of the buyer or the seller...if the purchaser selected the shipper than the responsibility for non fulfillment of the contractual agreement is the responsibility of the purchaser...if on the other hand the seller selected the shipper than the shipper is acting as the sellers agent and the responsibility for non performance lies with the seller. Paypal is not even a part of this transaction other than acting as a conveyance for the consideration.

I would imagine that legally the position would be that since the first condition was not fulfilled the second is a mute point.

[CP Goerz]

Would that be true even though the buyer refused insurance...or if the buyer requested the particular shipper that the item was sent through?

This is the justly famous Paypal 'protection' at work, nothing more than a complete passing of the buck.

[Rakesh Malik]

The question is whose agent is the shipper.


The shipper technically is making a contract with whoever provides payment and gives the shipper a box or whatever. Once the package is in the shipper's hands, it should be the shipper that becomes culpable for a failed delivery, since the shipper is in this case failing to fulfill the terms of the contract.



I would imagine that legally the position would be that since the first condition was not fulfilled the second is a mute point.

Of course it's mute, they all are. So are trees, as far as I know. At least, I've never heard a tree say anything, so I assume that they're all mute.

(The word you're looking for is moot, not mute.)

[ViewCameraNut]

Paypal burned me out of $180.00 on an item shipped to Australia. I had the receipt showing shipment and that was not enough (How's that Possible). I don't think this would fly if you went to small claims court and I would be curious to know if a class action suit could be filed against them. Why should we the seller be held liable for the USPS's f**k up? Don't get me started with these modern day pirates of the internet. They are doing whatever they want and getting away with it!

[redrockcoulee]

I had shipped 5 8X10 film holders to Korea. It was around the two month period that the buyer requested me to file a lost claim with Canada Post. I started the claim and of course the day I sent in the claim the buyer received the package (of course the two events have no connection). The point is that it needs at least two months of time to be sure that the package has not arrived. And especially the Christmas season shipping is even longer.

If the buyer takes no risk on uninsured shipping why would they want to pay for it? Perhaps one should always require insurance to oversea shipments. This is more a question than a statement. I notice that some even on this list will not even send to Canada so apparently limiting your shipping area does not adversely affect your sales.

The question I would have of the OP is what protection will you have if after refunding the buyer's funds and he receives will you get your money back? Good luck

[BrianShaw]

Once the package is in the shipper's hands, it should be the shipper that becomes culpable for a failed delivery, since the shipper is in this case failing to fulfill the terms of the contract.

I doubt you'll find the word, or even the concept, 'culpable' in the USPS or any other shippers vocabulary. That is why they offer insurance. I interpret the question "Do you want to insure this package" as having an inference - "... otherwise you are taking your chances." Have you ever heard of anyone taking the USPS to small claims court over a lost package and winning? In theory I agree with you... but that culpability is only a theory. To win in court NEGLIGENCE would have to be proven... and since that is virtually impossible, it is just a case of bad luck. That's what insurance is for. :D

[BrianShaw]

Why should we the seller be held liable for the USPS's f**k up?

So who should be responsible... the buyer? Insurance should have compensated you for your loss... didn't it?

[Dan Fromm]

Andrew, if you don't buy insurance then you have none.

If the buyer won't pay for insurance and you don't buy it anyway then you have none.

I've always sold costly items with mandatory insurance, self-insured on inexpensive ones. This reflects calculation of the odds -- few packages go astray -- and potential loss.

You self-insured and lost. I'm sorry for you, but the problem is you, not PayPal or, if the buyer had paid you directly with a credit card, the credit card company.

You're a big boy. You gambled and lost. Tough. Pity that you're not too large to fail.

[e]

Jeez Dan...why you sugar coating it...just tell it like it is....:rolleyes:

[Rakesh Malik]

I doubt you'll find the word, or even the concept, 'culpable' in the USPS or any other shippers vocabulary.
...

That's what insurance is for. :D

That's why I insure expensive packages when I ship them. :)

[Darren Kruger]

Both Ebay and Paypal have options to restrict international sales.

On Paypal under profile there is a section called "Payment Receiving Preferences" where you can limit what type of payments you accept. For me there is an option to block payments from non-US Paypal accounts.

Under Ebay, there is an option to block "Buyers in countries to which I don't ship" This sounds good but the shipping preferences are pretty coarse with I think ten regions/countries with several of them overlapping.

-Darren

[Stephen Lewis]

Your problem isn't with PayPal...

There's two things here that you should avoid in the future. One, if you're in the US, ship only to US, Canada and Australia. Sorry, but this is the most reliable. Russia and eastern Europe, and China can be tough for deliveries. Most of the horror stories end up being from these places.

Two, always buy insurance regardless of what the buyer wants. When someone asks me for shipping costs, I calculate the total with insurance and delivery confirmation, add it up and give them the total.

PayPal has done nothing wrong. It's not up to them to make sure the delivery happens properly, otherwise they'd be on the hook for every mishap and thief in the system.

It would be nice if U.S. members could include the U.K. in the 'approved' list. Many in the U.S. refuse to send items to the U.K, despite the fact that I'm happy to pay any additional insurance provided the item is being sent via a reputable compamy (UPS etc). On the rare occasions when I have been able to persuade a U.S. seller to sell to me, it's all gone without a single hitch.

[Dan Fromm]

Jeez Dan...why you sugar coating it...just tell it like it is....:rolleyes:The shame of it is that although there's billions available to bail out people who gambled vast sums and lost, there's none around for people like Andrew who lost small bets.

Cheers,

Dan

[Barry Trabitz]

Regarding insurance with the USPO: Several years ago I mailed to my daughter in England her point and shoot 35mm film camera. She forgot it after a visit . I insured the camera, and sent it priority mail. My daughter received an empty box. I was told at our local post office to file a bunch of papers , told to then call a central number in Washington, DC. The nice lady I spoke to informed me that the USPO was not responsible as in was in Her Majesties Postal Service at the time of loss. I insisted that the insurance fee was paid to the USPO and if their was a claim to be made to the British Postal Service THEY(the USPO) had to make it . I insisted that I be reimbursed for the camera and the postage as the item was never delivered. Two and a half years later I settled for the insured value of the camera.

Even with insurance you are not going to get protected without fighting some bureaucracy.

[rknewcomb]

<Some background....A buyer in Russia bought some film from me, I shipped it via priority mail. The buyer doesn't have the film yet and the USPS website shows the package as having left the USA, it was sent on the 21st November and is overdue by my estimate.>

I have sent a couple of items to Russia. Its worth noting that "unexposed film" is listed by the information page of the USPS as an item that Russia will not accept through customs. I did send film and it did get there but it took a long time in customs and probably a little "grease" from the buyer in Russia.

I have also sent a camera to Russia, it got there but it took a long time in customs too, say about six weeks.

FWIW

[Charles Carstensen]

PayPal makes the rules for THEIR playing field. No whining if you don't want to play by their rules. You have the right to make your own rules, too. I would never let some unknown buyer tell me how to ship an item, insurance included.

[CP Goerz]

Yes, 'I' could have paid for the insurance but thats not the point...the point is the buyer didn't want to pay for the insurance for his item. Since the package at this point 'may' be lost that is the 'risk' that I UNWITTINGLY took, if I knew that I was going to pay for the item whether the buyer wanted it covered or not do you think I would let it out the door?


Is this something that Paypal tells you in the fine print? Since there are so many pages of rules(constantly updated BTW) I doubt it is written so clearly but here is the shorthand version for you...Paypal WILL protect the buyer at all costs, the seller is on their own so SELLER BEWARE...INSURE everything at the expense of the buyer.



What I have learned is that I have to pop the shipping rates up once more to cover the insurance that will be added to all items from now on whether the buyer wants it or not.



The buyer made the claim to Paypal about a missing package thinking that Paypal would refund the item since Paypal freely and vociferously sell themselves as 'protection'. He was a bit surprised when I told him that I was deducted the funds...me too!



In the Kama Sutra of the number of ways that Paypal can f#*ck you I clearly passed over position number 658, thanks for pointing that one out to me Dan. I don't sell myself as invincible and my feet are made from the same fine clay as yours.



I didn't want to accept paypal as a payment method but am now forced to, its not my choice but if you think that insurance coverage is free then clearly you are a buyer and not a seller who has to go to the post office and pay up. The package weight/price I quoted the buyer was $34(thanks online USPS site!), in actuality it cost me $41 to send, minus the paypal fees of $8+ on the transaction so I lost in many ways on this particular deal. I learned a lot.

[Charles Carstensen]

CP, looks like a learning experience for you. Now, don't let the horse kick you a second time.

[CP Goerz]

Yep C, it is and I won't ;-)

[Jim Graves]

Not PayPal's issue ... they have no way of ensuring whether you actually shipped a $1000 necklace or an empty box ... and then filed a claim ... they're not in the insurance business. That's why you pay extra for insurance ... if you don't want that protection ... and don't purchase it ... it's not their problem ... it's your problem.

[CP Goerz]

Thanks Jim for pointing out what I already stated earlier.


Paypal has a copy of the customs form but why they even asked for it is beyond me since it clearly makes no difference to their decision as to 'who pays up'. At this point the box of film I sent hasn't been delivered so neither paypal nor I can say what is going on except its in 'transit'.


Paypal has shifted the burden and responsibility to me the seller for the safe shipping and delivery of the item...and in case that fails I also have to refund the buyer the full cost plus shipping and still be stuck paying Ebay fees too...all this after losing the items themselves AND paying for the pleasure of the shipper losing them.


I in turn from now on will make YOU pay in the form of higher shipping fees so in the end everyone pays for the new shift in perspective.

[rknewcomb]

Grover, your package is overdue not lost. Even if the buyer files a dispute with Paypal it takes something like 30 days for it to go to a claim. On the other hand, the bad part is that the buyer could if he/she wanted to, finally receive the package and then still say he didn't get it.
But don't give up just yet, its only late not lost.

[neil poulsen]

. . . I didn't want to accept paypal as a payment method but am now forced to, its not my choice . . .

Is there any way to avoid using PayPal as a seller on EBay? If someone sells currently on EBay, are they forced to give EBay their bank account information?

[Frank Petronio]

Both parties are taking on a higher degree of risk with any international transaction and you should explain that in your auction terms. I flat out state that I will not be responsible for international shipping problems and that the international buyers do so at their own risk. PayPal and eBay can still ding me, but if I am talking to the buyer directly at least I have a plank to stand on in getting them to compromise and hopefully split the difference on a failed shipment -- without their going to PayPal or eBay to complain about me. This assumes good intentions by all.

Postal insurance claims, especially international ones, take a ridiculously long time and then they will "adjust" the final payment based on bullshit, arbitrary un-protestable criteria. In a practical matter, insurance is worthless for small items. Valuable stuff needs to go FedEx or nothing at all.

For under $50 (and maybe much more $) items you just have to risk it. Explain to the customer that they risk it too.

I wouldn't refund anything to a Chinese or Russian customer, period. I don't trust their shipping services and I am skeptical of random, unknown buyers.

[Frank Bagbey]

It is simple to refuse to ship internationally. In almost every case the buyer will make arrangements for a U.S. delivery to someone who evidently charges to take the item to China, or whereever the item is going.

Also, REFUSE to take Paypal. I specify a moneyorder, or check and hold the check an extra two weeks for it to clear. Spell it all out and there will not be any problems.

[Vlad Soare]

A buyer in a 'blocked' country as you suggest can still bid and still be high bidder and still send you funds via paypal so its no guarantee of protection.
No, he can't. I once inadvertently tried to bid on an item where the buyer only shipped to US. I wasn't paying attention to this detail. I couldn't bid. I got an error message when trying to bid.


Put in your auction the information that 'although eBay forces PayPal to be listed, I do NOT take PayPal. US Postal Money orders only.'
I'm not sure eBay would allow this if it were brought to their attention by an upset buyer. You may have got away with it so far because all buyers happened to respect your wish, but if someone wants to bid on your item, wants to pay via PayPal, is not in the mood to pay ten times the amount, and files a complaint against you, I have a hunch that eBay won't be happy and won't let you get away with it.


I already have full payment(of 10 times the auction amount if the idiot insistest on PayPal) and PayPal doesn't get a damn dime of the money.
I understand why you may not like PayPal, but why the venom against buyers preferring it? As a buyer living outside the US, I find PayPal the best invention since sliced bread. Other payment methods, which may come natural to you as a US resident, are so extremely difficult, annoying, expensive and risky for us foreigners, that they're not even worth taking into account. I certainly don't regard myself as an idiot for preferring PayPal.

[Michael Graves]

Since the inception of mail order, there have been two constants. The buyer must prepay before the seller ships, putting the onus on the buyer to put their faith in the seller to ship. The flip side is that, the onus of delivery is on the seller. The buyer DOES have a right to expect the seller's reponsibility to not just end at their door--but on the downwind side of opening the package. The buyer has the right (or should have) to see that he or she actually got what was paid for. If a 18th century crystal decanter was bought and paid for and a Walmart plastic funeral vase was delivered, then the seller's responsibility has not been fulfilled and the buyer has just cause to file a complaint against the seller.

If nothing at all is delivered, then the seller is still on the hook until the situation is resolved. Paypal has done a GOOD thing here as far as buyer protection is concerned. CP Goerz, as a seller, has an immaculate reputation in our community and we all know that if something goes awry it was probably not due to a misstep on his part. To somebody seeing his listing on eBay for the first time, he HAS no reputation. If non-delivery is the first experience they have with him, is it all that unnatural for the buyer to assume the worst?

Two editorial comments here...if you aren't willing to assume the risks inherent in mail order or web transactions, then don't conduct them. Buy and sell locally and live with the built-in limitations. Secondly, if you ARE going to take advantage of the miracles of modern electronic sales and the wider audience you get as a result, then be prepared to take an occasional lump and be set up to accept electronic payment. There is no fairness in the seller being able to take advantage of technology while forcing the buyer to travel about scraping up primitive payment methods such as money orders just so the seller is the only one protected. The world of Internet sales is supposed to benefit both sides.

[sultanofcognac]

I've used paypal for four or five years now and have only been slightly 'warmed' by one transaction, but mostly because it took almost five months for paypal to recoup the funds from the seller.
If people limit the countries to which they will ship I can understand - but to limit the countries to which they will sell (my father lives in Arizona and will reship to me at my house in Switzerland or the one here in France) is a bit on the dark side of 1995 - the whole world is playing these days and there are many more expats who have the money to pay and the means to have something reshipped. I have paypal and ebay accounts in four countries but still come across someone who will neither sell nor ship to either country favourable to me.

That's just part of the game. It can be dangerous at times but oddly enough, almost all of the camera gear I have (tons, believe me) has been bought off ebay and paid through paypal.

[otzi]

I agree that PayPal is handy. They even offer an account summery. That's handy for me. Certainly infinitely more convenient that dealing with a bank and cheaper too I think. As a buyer I have had occasion to be thankful for their might in dealing with a dodgy seller. I think in my favor I listed a copy of every communicative transaction both mine and the sellers. As for PayPal's security, I would like to have that explained to me. I don't consider there to be any.

As for tracking, well really that's not much more than feel good glib. All tracking it seems stops at the country of departures boundary.

Insurance, well that too as is well illustrated in this thread makes one feel good but, unlike car insurance pretty elastic in it's purpose and out come. I would like to hear of a PayPal dispute outcome where the seller had insurance, how this altered anything.

FedEx at (how much) twice the price or more of postal cost it seems endeavor to place package to the recipient. DHL also. One would need to figure the break even sell price to cover all this postage over-burden.

And no, not all overseas buyers are able to second ship an item. Having seen considerable volume of items listed US only I notice that these often sell at bargain prices.

I have to say I have been pleasantly surprised by the postal service generally. Some slow but all delivered (so far) even the dodgy packaged items. EMS seems pretty good with good attention to detail at this end anyway.

[Dan Fromm]

Dakotah, what's your eBay username?

[neil poulsen]

I do money orders both ways, whenever I can. I had a problem once, when the seller had low feedback. I won't make that mistake again.

Frankly, I think that EBay is going just a bit Gastopo when they require PayPal. It's just another way to dig more money out of their customers. And, I do not like the idea of giving EBay my bank account information for them to make their own withdrawals. That's unmitigated intrusion, under any circumstances.

EBay started out as a neat, entrepreneurial system. Now they're starting to get greedy. It's true, I can always choose not to use EBay. I've got a bunch of stuff to sell, so I may put up with their tactics for a while. But then, I'll probably back off. They need their sellers, even the occasional sellers. They should treat them with more respect.

[BradS]

...Paypal WILL protect the buyer at all costs, the seller is on their own so SELLER BEWARE...INSURE everything at the expense of the buyer.

This just seems obvious to me....except that you, the seller are protected by the insurance. You fiel the claim if the package gets lost and you, the seller, get to collect...not the buyer. Shipping insurance is your cost of doing business. Why do you (and many many other sellers) assume that it is the buyer's?



What I have learned is that I have to pop the shipping rates up once more to cover the insurance that will be added to all items from now on whether the buyer wants it or not.

No. You have to eat it....see above. Again, you want it. Insurance is your protection - not the buyer's. You need to adjust your perspective of the world.

[neil poulsen]

When I get back to selling a bit, I'm wondering about adding the cost of PayPal into the shipping. I'd be inclined to include this in the auction notice.

PayPal fees included as part of handling. I prefer money orders or cashiers checks.

Something like that.

[B.S.Kumar]

I'm curious to know if all the sellers who refuse to sell or ship outside the US also refuse to buy from outside the US.

Kumar

[Pete Roody]

Insurance for shipping is part of the shipping cost. So are packaging/handling costs. For auctions, where the price is variable, you keep the shipping costs separate from the auction price. When the buyer pays for shipping and insurance, the seller can then be held responsible for refunding the buyer and collecting insurance if the item is lost. If the buyer doesn't pay for insurance, the buyer should be responsible for lost items.

When I buy, I always pay for insurance when the item's value is above my threshold for a loss. Reading responses like yours, and other buyers who feel the same, convinces me that I have to charge my selling practices to force a buyer to pay for insurance whether he wants it or not. Otherwise, no sale.



This just seems obvious to me....except that you, the seller are protected by the insurance. You fiel the claim if the package gets lost and you, the seller, get to collect...not the buyer. Shipping insurance is your cost of doing business. Why do you (and many many other sellers) assume that it is the buyer's?




No. You have to eat it....see above. Again, you want it. Insurance is your protection - not the buyer's. You need to adjust your perspective of the world.

[BrianShaw]

I'm curious to know if all the sellers who refuse to sell or ship outside the US also refuse to buy from outside the US.


I can't aswer for "all" sellers, but I don't buy internationally. There isn't much stuff I want that I can't find in US auctions and, with few exceptions, the exchange rates make most British/Eurpoean goods too expensive. It is a shame, really, because it would be nice to be able to deal with ease/confidence worldwide.

[BrianShaw]

If the buyer doesn't pay for insurance, the buyer should be responsible for lost items.

Not directed at you specifically, Pete... but since you were the last to express this sentiment... Does this principle apply when you order something from, say, LL Bean (or insert name of any other mailorder house that might be more appropriate to your location)... or would you "eat it" if they shipped something you paid for and it never arrived?

[CP Goerz]

'This just seems obvious to me....except that you, the seller are protected by the insurance. You fiel the claim if the package gets lost and you, the seller, get to collect...not the buyer. Shipping insurance is your cost of doing business. Why do you (and many many other sellers) assume that it is the buyer's? '




And just how long do you think a good reputation would last with that kind of tactic? About three nanoseconds thats how long. If the buyer wants insurance to insure HIS/HER package fine...I'll file the claim and they get all the money. Why would you assume that I would keep it?



If the buyer wants to risk a shipment without insurance thats their responsibility, I pack carefully to make sure the item arrives without damage and I take it to the post office who then delivers it to you.....if you don't want to pay insurance why should I want to? Only in the freaky ebay/paypal transaction can things be turned on their ear. Since paypal has shifted the onus back to the seller I as a seller will make you the buyer pay for insurance one way or another, I will also make you pay for the paypal fees too one way or another.


Where do you get off thinking that everyone should give you free stuff(like insurance)? Do you have a credit card that you use to pay groceries? Who pays the fees on that for the transaction...have a guess. Maybe you get 'free' airline miles too...who do you think pays for them? The grocery store? No, we collectively all pay for the convenience of the credit cards through higher prices that have your 'free' airline miles built in. The card companies have the system sewn up so that 'cash discount' can't be given if the grocery store takes CC's so cash users end up paying 'more'.


'No. You have to eat it....see above. Again, you want it. Insurance is your protection - not the buyer's. You need to adjust your perspective of the world.'


I'm surprised by your naivete, nothing in this world is free. Someone pays somewhere and you better believe that if it says 'free' you have already paid for it. So I will make the buyer pay, if you think you haven't been paying already then I have plenty of Mojave lakefront property for yah at bargain rates.



I do give cash discount to buyers who pay with check or MO, the extra fees that you pay in shipping when you pay via paypal are kicked back to my buyers. If its a small fee then I upgrade the shipping instead but either way they get a break.

[neil poulsen]

I'm curious to know if all the sellers who refuse to sell or ship outside the US also refuse to buy from outside the US.

Kumar

I pretty much stick to the US, buying and selling. For example, I've heard of "nasty" surprises from UPS, if one ships using them from Canada.

[BrianShaw]

And just how long do you think a good reputation would last with that kind of tactic? About three nanoseconds thats how long. If the buyer wants insurance to insure HIS/HER package fine...I'll file the claim and they get all the money. Why would you assume that I would keep it?

One of my new year resolutions was to become a casual observer of discusssions like this... but since I've never really been good at keeping resolutions...


I think there is an assumption you missed, CP. I believe the assumption is htat the seller/merchant would have already refunded the buyer/customers money to cover the buyers loss, then sought insurance compensation to regain your loss. In the end everyone breaks even. It is a rather standard business practice from what I understand. Unfortunately it is the seller/merchant who has to wait (sometimes a long time) to get satisfaction.

To maintain a good reputation as a customer-service oriented merchant, most merchants seem to want to quickly resolve the impacts of non-delivery or damaged-merchandise with their customer. It sure beats an "I got your money and did my best, but if things don't work out it's your problem" kind of attitude that some small or unscrupulous online seller seem to offer.

There is an old saying and I don't know if it is true, but I think so (and I might have the numbers a bit off, but the point remains), "a happy customer will tell two other people about their happiness; an unhappy customer will tell 10 other people about their unhappiness." I know which is better for business without having to think too hard!

[I think I should now renew my efforts to keep my resolution! :) ]

[Pete Roody]

Not directed at you specifically, Pete... but since you were the last to express this sentiment... Does this principle apply when you order something from, say, LL Bean (or insert name of any other mailorder house that might be more appropriate to your location)... or would you "eat it" if they shipped something you paid for and it never arrived?

I can understand why this logic seems correct. When I buy from LL Bean, I don't ask for insurance and would still expect them to give me a refund if the package is lost. LL Bean sells for a fixed price. In that fixed price, they account for occasional loses in the postal system. They also cover the shipping costs for returns. These costs are averaged into the sale price of every item they sell. LL Bean is acting as the insurer and the buyer does pay for this insurance.

What I am saying is that for most independent sellers, the cost of insurance is not added to the price of the item, it is a direct cost that is added to the shipping. The buyer is responsible for this cost. If the buyer does not want to pay for this, the risk is on him.

[BrianShaw]

What I am saying is that for most independent sellers...

OK I understand you. No major disagreement. We'll have to agree-to-disagree about who holds liability for nondelivery and who is "expected" to pay for insurance.

The interesting "problem" with ebay is that it is a blend of professional merchants (who self-insure as you so accurately point out), private party sales (in which case the risks are understood and insurance is the countermeasure), and another whole class of ebay merchants: entrepeneurs who sell in quantity or frequency like a professional merchant but want to do business in the manner of private party sales. I understand how to do business with sellers of the first and second types, but it is the third type of seller that things seem to get dicey.

I guess I've just been lucky in my 150 or so ebay dealings. Only recently did I have a "problem" - an item from a "type 3 seller" arrived broken and virtually unusable. In three email messages we managed to reach a solution. I asked him to refund my money (including shipping) which he did; he declined to pay to have the item returned to him. Yes, that solution totally favored me; but his solution did result in me going back and buying more from him... which I wouldn't have done if he said "tough luck, buddy" when I received broken stuff.

[Donald Miller]

Would that be true even though the buyer refused insurance...or if the buyer requested the particular shipper that the item was sent through?

This is the justly famous Paypal 'protection' at work, nothing more than a complete passing of the buck.

If the purchaser selected the means of conveyance then the shipper is acting as an agent of the purchaser and it is the purchaser's responsibility to deal with the fallout should a loss occur...the shipper (acting as an agent) accepts responsibility for the mdse while it is in their possession. If the seller selected the means of conveyance it is the seller's responsibility if things went south. Acting as a seller, I would not offer an alternative to insurance.

Paypal has nothing to do with the loss of the mdse should that occur. That is a matter between the shipping company acting as an agent and the party that retained them.

[BradS]

And just how long do you think a good reputation would last with that kind of tactic? About three nanoseconds thats how long. If the buyer wants insurance to insure HIS/HER package fine...I'll file the claim and they get all the money. Why would you assume that I would keep it?

Because, I assume that the seller would have already refunded the buyer's payment. If I order a shirt from Land's End or a camera from MPEX and the goods do not arrive at my door within some reasonable amount of time, of course, they immediately refund the payment.




If the buyer wants to risk a shipment without insurance thats their responsibility, I pack carefully to make sure the item arrives without damage and I take it to the post office who then delivers it to you.....if you don't want to pay insurance why should I want to? Only in the freaky ebay/paypal transaction can things be turned on their ear. Since paypal has shifted the onus back to the seller I as a seller will make you the buyer pay for insurance one way or another, I will also make you pay for the paypal fees too one way or another.

Yes. Ebay seems to be the only place where sellers seem to think differently from all other, established and reputable mail order retailers.

In any mail order transaction, the buyer is responsible for making payment to seller.

The seller is responsible for delivering the goods....simple. If seller employs an agent or many agents, seller assumes responsibility for those agents performance. This is well established and understood every where but, ebay. Odd.



Where do you get off thinking that everyone should give you free stuff(like insurance)? Do you have a credit card that you use to pay groceries? Who pays the fees on that for the transaction...have a guess. Maybe you get 'free' airline miles too...who do you think pays for them? The grocery store? No, we collectively all pay for the convenience of the credit cards through higher prices that have your 'free' airline miles built in. The card companies have the system sewn up so that 'cash discount' can't be given if the grocery store takes CC's so cash users end up paying 'more'.

I'm surprised by your naivete, nothing in this world is free. Someone pays somewhere and you better believe that if it says 'free' you have already paid for it. So I will make the buyer pay, if you think you haven't been paying already then I have plenty of Mojave lakefront property for yah at bargain rates.


I understand you're unhappy but there is no need to be mean. I had expected better from somebody with you marketing savy. I actually read your ebay descriptions for entertainment and marvel at the sheer brilliance of your talent and marketing genius.

I have bought from you and always held you in high regard....I am sorry I angered you. You don't know who I am nor do you have any idea how much I have sold or bought or of my business experience. Please, do not assume otherwise.

Good day sir.

[CP Goerz]

Any meanness on my behalf was unintentional, I'm sorry if it came across that way. Sometimes I get clattering about on the keyboard and forget that typed words miss the softness of a voice.


Thanks for the kind words!


The solution has been hit on earlier in the thread...just charge everyone insurance. Problem solved.

[Steve Hamley]

I just bought a tripod head from a Chicago dealer on eBay, and the description stated that "Shipping price includes insurance, shiping, and handling costs". Seems like the way to go, at least for overseas shipments.

Cheers, Steve

[RJC]

it was sent on the 21st November and is overdue by my estimate.


I regularly ship items to the Russian Federation and even to Moscow would allow minimum 4 weeks (more at this time of year) before being worried about a failed delivery. Items going to cities beyond the Urals I'd allow minimum 6 weeks. I've never had a lost or mis-appropriated delivery with the Russian Postal Service even though the contents have to be precisely described on Customs forms for all to read- slow but reliable would be my assessment.

As its now into the Russian New Year/Christmas holiday period you are unlikely to hear anything until after Jan 7.

[wfwhitaker]

And now it looks like there's a chance they'll be running California.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28511370/

At least they haven't invaded Poland yet.

[canvasjunkies]

Selling on eBay is like the signs that say “Swim at Your Own Risk”. You can sell if you like, but if something happens you are on your own. I have done over 4,000 transactions on eBay and I have encounter about every situation mentioned above. If you are willing to ship outside of the USA or Canada, you should be willing to get burn on about 3 to 5 percent of the transactions. It’s unbelievable but somehow, so many of the international transactions complaint about shipping, shipping cost or product description. I always ship with insurance when shipping internationally even if the customer has not paid for it. I usually include it on my cost calculation. Items that have international option, I always put a higher margin and a high shipping cost. This covers my lost on those 3 to 5 percent complaints.
I have yet to win a dispute with PayPal when the client does a claim with their credit card. Somehow, even with proof of shipment and delivery, I always loose. But in the case of lost packages, insurance always do the job.

[Lachlan 717]

If you are willing to ship outside of the USA or Canada, you should be willing to get burn on about 3 to 5 percent of the transactions.

What are your rates for US/Canada?