200mm f6.8 Gandagon? Where are they?

[bglick]

I never see this lens used... how long ago was it discontinued?

[resummerfield]

I've seen four of them on the 'bay over the past year or two. I bid on all four, and lost, as each one went for around $2500. Probably for the best, I guess.

[John Schneider]

Glennview has one for a hefty price if you're really interested

[bglick]

Anyone actually use one? Seems like a great lens....

[Oren Grad]

It's monstrously heavy. Forklift territory...

[bglick]

Glenview sold theirs....

[Armin Seeholzer]

So just the 210 Super Angulon:
http://cgi.ebay.de/8-210-210mm-F8-SUPER-ANGULON-500mm-BK-PRONTOR-PROF-3_W0QQitemZ220330339957QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDE_Elektronik_Computer_Foto_Camcorder_Foto_Camcorderzubehör_PM?hash=item220330339957&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1231%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

[Eric Leppanen]

I own a 200 Grandagon, which I primarily use to shoot external architectural and certain landscapes where extreme front rise is required. It is definitely a boat anchor, but I prefer it to the smaller SS210XL (which I used to own) in that the light fall-off at the image circle edge is less pronounced. I needed a CF when shooting my SS210XL, whereas I don't with the Grandagon as long as I use B&W or color neg film (I also gain one and half stops of shutter speed). I also picked up a Cokin X-Pro orange filter during an inventory close-out at Samy's, which works well for B&W architecture shooting (I just tape the filter to the front lens barrel). Conventional Lee filters can barely fit over the rear element (here again I tape them to the lens barrel).

All the lenses in this class are too big for more than a short hike from the car, so I don't find the bulk of the Grandagon that much different from its counterparts. It rates its own camera bag, which I carry in one hand with my tripod in the other.

[bglick]

Eric, I would think, the same image circle would produce the same light fall off, assuming same fl.... cause cos theta fall-off is a mathematical function, not a design issue....right?

The SSXL 210 at 5.6 allows a bit more light for gg viewing.... Considering I will use it at f45+, image quality shouldn't vary much.

I also wanted the huge image circle for some front rise on 810.

[Eric Leppanen]

Eric, I would think, the same image circle would produce the same light fall off, assuming same fl.... cause cos theta fall-off is a mathematical function, not a design issue....right?The SSXL's have a different cosine function for light fall off (cos^4 versus cos^3 if I remember correctly) than the Biogon-based designs. The SSXL's don't use the so-called "tilted pupil" trick that improves fall off performance. I don't remember the details about all this anymore, but there are a number of threads in this forum that discuss it in depth.

[Don7x17]

Anyone actually use one? Seems like a great lens....


I've owned one since I picked it up new back in 1995. There weren't very many made, although its more common than the Rodenstock 300 Makro or the Rodenstock 300W.

Covers 7x17 quick nicely. Also provides quite a lot of movement on 8x10. I prefer it to the 210 SSXL for both.

Its quite large and heavy, but not as large as either of the XXL fine art lenses or the de Golden Busch lenses. You'll need 135mm filters (think about a filter the size of a dematasse plate...) -- B&W and Rodenstock make these, special order. Contact Rod Klukas at Photomark for these.

[Eric Leppanen]

Regarding Grandagon versus SSXL light fall off, see Michael Briggs' post in this thread:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=12760

[bglick]

Eric, thanks for the link, interesting...although, for my use, the difference in light fall off, IMO is not significant enough to make a huge difference.

I am curious why both of you prefer the Grandagon to the SSXL 210? The SS has more image circle and from what you both describe, its a bit smaller?

[Bob Salomon]

"how long ago was it discontinued"

In the USA in December of 1997. However, some dealers might still have had one or more like Ken Hansen, Calumet, B&H and Samy's after that date.

[Don7x17]

Eric, thanks for the link, interesting...although, for my use, the difference in light fall off, IMO is not significant enough to make a huge difference.

I am curious why both of you prefer the Grandagon to the SSXL 210? The SS has more image circle and from what you both describe, its a bit smaller?

With 7x17 you are using most of the coverage, and with the 200 Grandagon, there is less falloff. Its noticeable in a contact print with Pt/Pd for the 210.

Size and weight is no object - you don't backback with 7x17, holders, lenses...

[Eric Leppanen]

My Grandagon 200 weighs approximately 6.25 pounds. The SS210XL weighs 4.43 pounds, according to Schneider. Most of this weight difference appears to lie with the rear element, which is remarkably tiny in the Schneider given the size of that lens. However, add another 3 pounds or so for a dedicated padded camera shoulder bag to house the lens (or add a similar amount of weight for an absolutely enormous backpack, assuming you want to accommodate a normal assortment of lenses in addition to the SS210XL). So now you're at 9.25 pounds versus 7.43 pounds. For me, either way, this proved to be an unacceptable amount of weight for long distance hiking.

Then there is the light fall off. When used with significant movements (otherwise why own such a large lens), I found the Schneider's fall off absolutely unacceptable with chrome film, and unacceptable even with B&W or color neg. The center filter solves all this, but it is expensive (roughly $900 if you buy it from Robert White in the U.K., $1,000 if purchased in the U.S.), costs you 1.5 stops of speed, and is just another delicate and fiddly piece of equipment to handle in the field. I used one for a couple years or so, and got tired of the hassle.

Granted, the Schneider is a newer design, and while I can't prove it (I did not own the two lenses simultaneously and did not perform comparison tests), the Schneider might be a smidge sharper at the edges when viewed with a 10x loupe. But I don't enlarge my 8x10 negs more than 4x or so, so any edge resolution difference (if any) has never been a factor for me. The Schneider is also slightly brighter for focusing, but not significantly so IMO. Also, because the Schneider front element is so large versus the rear element (the Rodenstock is more balanced), you have to be careful that the front standard does not tip forward while setting front tilt; this is not a big deal, but another detail to keep track of in the field.

So this was the journey that took me from the SS210XL to the Grandagon. Based on the Ebay auctions I have seen over the last year or so, both lenses sell for similar amounts on the used market (around $2,500 or so), so used lens price is not a differentiating feature. I think everything comes down to whether the fall off is manageable for you; if it is, then the SS210XL is probably the way to go. If you'd like some more SS210XL versus Grandagon feedback, you might want to check over at the LF forum in photo.net; Bruce Cahn (an LF photographer and dealer in New York) is a vocal advocate for his SS210XL; he has sold both Schneider and Rodenstock lenses in the past.

[Don7x17]

"how long ago was it discontinued"

In the USA in December of 1997. However, some dealers might still have had one or more like Ken Hansen, Calumet, B&H and Samy's after that date.

Bob

Do you know (or can you find out?):
How many 200 Grandagons were made?
How about 300W Rodenstock?
How about 300 Makro Rodenstock (I have heard there was a one-time run only)

thanks

[Bob Salomon]

Bob

Do you know (or can you find out?):
How many 200 Grandagons were made?
How about 300W Rodenstock?
How about 300 Makro Rodenstock (I have heard there was a one-time run only)

thanks

Sorry, no. Most of that type of information is proprietary.

[Don7x17]

Sorry, no. Most of that type of information is proprietary.

None of these has been available since the mid-1990's ...and the Makros and 300W's were a one-time lifetime build.

What's so top secret anymore? (its past history, but not as old as Dagor or Protar build numbers ;-).

Can you suggest someone at Rodenstock that I can contact?

thanks

[Oren Grad]

and the Makros and 300W's were a one-time lifetime build.

Well, at least two-time anyway, for the 300W. You can still get a new one from the recent special run at Badger Graphic.

[bglick]

good anlaysis Eric.... obviously the Grandagons are in short supply vs. the 210 XL.... I will hold out a bit

[Don7x17]

Well, at least two-time anyway, for the 300W. You can still get a new one from the recent special run at Badger Graphic.

good to know. attractively priced ;-). Great lens for 7x17 and 12x20 by the way.

[Oren Grad]

Great lens for 7x17 and 12x20 by the way.

Yup. I've used mine on 7x17. :)

[ljsegil]

What ever might be the magic of the Gandagon 300W to warrant the special run and the Leica-like price? It's not the only lens with a large image circle; what other tricks can it do?
Curiously,
LJS

[Bob Salomon]

"Gandagon 300W"

Not a Grandagon 300. It is the Apo Sironar W 300mm.

[John Schneider]

A 300 "Grandagon" would be the equivalent of the mythical 300 Fujinon-SW, which is to say, absolutely tremendous coverage.

[Oren Grad]

What ever might be the magic of the Gandagon 300W to warrant the special run and the Leica-like price? It's not the only lens with a large image circle; what other tricks can it do?

The price is not out of line compared to other short-run modern glass like the Schneider Fine Art XXL lenses, the long Schneider Apo-Tele-Xenars or the Cooke XVa when it was in production. The 360 Apo-Sironar-S and the 480 Apo-Symmar L are getting up there too.

What you get is just what the label says: a highly-corrected modern plasmat with unusually large coverage. And you get the specified coverage, with crisp rendering across the field, at f/22, which means you can make pictures on 7x17 or 11x14 that would be difficult or impossible with classic or process lenses that need to be stopped down to f/45 to cover with passable quality.

Whether that's worth the extra $$$$, size and weight is up to you. As always, bear in mind that if you buy used the premium isn't so large as it seems; I got my pristine 300W for well under half of Badger's price for a new one.

[Bob Salomon]

Well, at least two-time anyway, for the 300W. You can still get a new one from the recent special run at Badger Graphic.

The 300 W was originally introduced as the 300mm Apo Sironar in 1990 at the Photokina. It was then re-branded in later productions as the 300mm Apo Sironar W at the 1992 Photokina when the S was introduced. So those were two production runs at the least. Then a German dealer in 2006 commissioned Rodenstock to make another production run and bought the entire production. Those are the ones that Badger bought. That is at least 3 production runs.

200mm Grandagon-N with green stripe, 200mm Grandagon-N no stripe, 200mm Grandagon no N and non-MC. That is at least 3 production runs again

[Eric Leppanen]

Bob,

My 200 Grandagon has the following labeling on the front barrel: "Rodenstock Grandagon 1:6,8 f=200mm MC" plus the serial number. There is no stripe on the barrel, and the label on its shipping box states "Grandagon 200mm f/6,8 Cop. 3 Cat. No. 0520024000". So is my lens from the third of four production runs ("N" with stripe, "N" with no stripe, no "N" MC, no "N" single coated)? I'm assuming all four runs are of the same optical design aside from the oldest being single coated, correct?

[Bob Salomon]

Bob,

My 200 Grandagon has the following labeling on the front barrel: "Rodenstock Grandagon 1:6,8 f=200mm MC" plus the serial number. There is no stripe on the barrel, and the label on its shipping box states "Grandagon 200mm f/6,8 Cop. 3 Cat. No. 0520024000". So is my lens from the third of four production runs ("N" with stripe, "N" with no stripe, no "N" MC, no "N" single coated)? I'm assuming all four runs are of the same optical design aside from the oldest being single coated, correct?

You can assume that over a ten year period there will be enough changes in a lens production that new elements will not fit directly into older lenses so no, lenses evolve over time. Although not always enough to change the name of the lens.

[Oren Grad]

The 300 W was originally introduced as the 300mm Apo Sironar in 1990 at the Photokina. It was then re-branded in later productions as the 300mm Apo Sironar W at the 1992 Photokina when the S was introduced. So those were two production runs at the least. Then a German dealer in 2006 commissioned Rodenstock to make another production run and bought the entire production. Those are the ones that Badger bought. That is at least 3 production runs.

Bob, mine is labeled as a Sinaron-WS. Did they do separate runs for Sinar, or would those have been pulled from the same batches as the (Apo-)Sironar-W's?

[Bob Salomon]

Bob, mine is labeled as a Sinaron-WS. Did they do separate runs for Sinar, or would those have been pulled from the same batches as the (Apo-)Sironar-W's?

Have no idea if it was a separate run for Caltar and Sinaron or if it was the same run.

[Don7x17]

Have no idea if it was a separate run for Caltar and Sinaron or if it was the same run.

Sinar Rep in 1992 told me that the Sinaron lenses were cherry picked from the individual lens elements and assembled at the same time as the normal Rodenstock lens runs. But he never said what specs that they cherry picked the elements off the optical bench prior to assembly.... so, if this is to be believed (no reason to doubt), then they were assembled at the same time....with aluminum that had Sinaron rather than Rodenstock. (for the Rodenstock family lenses under the Sinaron brand).

[Bob Salomon]

Sinar Rep in 1992 told me that the Sinaron lenses were cherry picked from the individual lens elements and assembled at the same time as the normal Rodenstock lens runs. But he never said what specs that they cherry picked the elements off the optical bench prior to assembly.... so, if this is to be believed (no reason to doubt), then they were assembled at the same time....with aluminum that had Sinaron rather than Rodenstock. (for the Rodenstock family lenses under the Sinaron brand).

Sorry but he was selling you a lens. Any cherry picking was done exactly the same way Linhof picked their lenses. After the factory had shipped the lenses to the respective factory they were tested optically and mechanically. The optical test is done on a Rodenstock manufactured Siemans star projector the size on many peoples dining rooms.

[Don7x17]

Sorry but he was selling you a lens. Any cherry picking was done exactly the same way Linhof picked their lenses. After the factory had shipped the lenses to the respective factory they were tested optically and mechanically. The optical test is done on a Rodenstock manufactured Siemans star projector the size on many peoples dining rooms.

No, Bob, he was standing on the customer side of the counter at Photomark when I asked. I wasn't buying anything. He wasn't selling anything to anyone. Neither was Rod. I don't find his remarks any less credible than yours (and I don't have any basis to disbelieve either of you).

[Bob Salomon]

No, Bob, he was standing on the customer side of the counter at Photomark when I asked. I wasn't buying anything. He wasn't selling anything to anyone. Neither was Rod. I don't find his remarks any less credible than yours (and I don't have any basis to disbelieve either of you).

Then ask Rod.

[Allen in Montreal]

Well, at least two-time anyway, for the 300W. You can still get a new one from the recent special run at Badger Graphic.

Ouch! At a mere 5k too.

[mohan]

I am new to LF and am wondering...

What is special about the lenses mentioned in this thread?

The 200, 300 makro and the 300W

Thanks for any insight.

cheers

[Steve Hamley]

Grandagons are Rodenstock's brand name for wide-angle lenses. Wide angle lenses (100+ degrees) as long as 200-210mm (as in the 105-degree Schneider 210mm Super Symmar XL) are rare and useful for the smaller ULF formats, or for smaller formats where a lot of movement is necessary, like architecture.

The 300mm Makro was unusual because macros are usually 120mm for 4x5 and 240mm for 8x10. Other than the focal length being a bit longer than is typically seen, I'm not aware that there's anything particularly special or different about this lens.

The Rodenstock Sironar-W series was/is an 80-degree plasmat design, where plasmats are mostly 72-degree (Rodenstock Apo Sironar-N or Schneider Apo Symmar) or 75-degree designs (Rodenstock Apo Sironar-S and Schneider Apo-Symmar L). The greater coverage of the 80-degree lenses again make them usable for the some ULF formats or when lots of movement is needed on smaller formats.

Aside from that, there are other alternatives, but the alternatives may be older, uncoated or single coated, in barrel versus shutter, and dimmer.

Cheers,

Steve

[Mike Herring]

I used one of these years ago....rented it from Ken Hansen Photo. It is a magnificient optic. It is also the most impressive optic I have ever seen or held in my hands. You may have to do some heavy weight lifting for a couple of months before you decide to lift one off the counter.......WOW it is BIG !!!
I would love to get one for my Sinar P 8x10. I was impressed when I got my 90mm f4.5 Grandagon and also when my friend picked up a 155mm Grandagon. This is also a wonderful optic and the Nikon SW 150mm f8 is no slouch either.

Happy Holidays!
Mike


I never see this lens used... how long ago was it discontinued?

[Don7x17]

I am new to LF and am wondering...

What is special about the lenses mentioned in this thread?

The 200, 300 makro and the 300W

Thanks for any insight.

cheers

200 Grandagon covers only 7x17 or 11x14 but has more even illumination than the 210 SSXL

300 Makro - can be reversed to optimize for up to 5:1. Was used for jewelry images until recently (digital superceded).

300 W - covers 12x20 and larger.