Indoor Photography

[chris_4622]

I have an interest in photographing the interiors of a couple of barber shops nearby and in thinking about the project I don't know how to deal with the fact that both are on the north side of the street, one with tinted windows. Both have fluorescent lighting.

The only lighting I have is a Vivitar 285 HV which I would imagine would not be nearly enough for lf. I do plan to use a wide angle 5.6 lens, though I'm not sure how much it will have to be stopped down. Could I open the lens and set the flash off manually a few times to build exposure? Now the hundred dollar question; how many times...

I'm looking for some suggestions.

thanks,
chris

[Ralph Barker]

Are you shooting B&W or color film? If color, positive or negative?

Multiple "pops" of the flash can work, but you'll need to do some metering with a unit that works with electronic flash. A meter that does incident flash readings tends to be more convenient for this. Take the reading (at the subject position) and compare it to the aperture you want to use to get enough DOF, then add additional pops to reach that exposure value. Each pop "doubles" the amount of light, so it's equivalent to an additional stop. With more than a couple of pops, I usually add one more to compensate for what might be called reciprocity. Note that recovery time for the flash unit also plays into whether multiple pops will work conveniently.

If you were planning on panning the single flash for better coverage, doing so won't add to the exposure in a uniform manner, particularly if bounced for softer rendition. Multiple studio strobes would be preferred for more predictable results, but give it a shot, so to speak, with what you've got.

Depending on how much the color-cast light from the window and the ambient florescent lights contribute to the total exposure, you may also need some color correction. If you are using color negative film, some correction can be done in printing or in post-processing if you're scanning. I'd try to shoot in the evening, so window light will be less of an issue, and less of a contribution to the total exposure.

[chris_4622]

Thanks Ralph,

I'll be using b&w film. This is for fun so I'll probably try it and how close I can get. I'm toying with the idea of some motion blur with the barber too.

I'll borrow a light meter for flash and will keep the flash unit behind the camera in one position.

thanks,
chris

[cjbroadbent]

.... Each pop "doubles" the amount of light, so it's equivalent to an additional stop. With more than a couple of pops....

The pops go 1,2,4,8,16 etc. for each smaller stop. Shooting color, I would use 'tungsten' film, for artificial light, and filter it for daylight with the orange conversion filter. This combination works perfectly for long exposures. 'T' film is made for long exposures. Daylight film screws up the colors over 60 seconds.
Just close down to f45 do a LONG exposure, anything from 10 to 60 minutes, it makes very little difference (I do this frequently for money). The window is the natural key-light. Just keep popping your flash as a fill light by bouncing it off the wall somewhere above and behind the camera like Ralph says. If one bounced pop is enough at f5.6, you will need 64 pops. More or less.

[ejohnson]

Shooting color, I would use 'tungsten' film, for artificial light, and filter it for daylight with the orange conversion filter.

He said he is shooting black and white. If you were shooting color would the flourescent light be a problem?

In black and white why not just use available light and adjust your exposure and development times?

eric

[Ralph Barker]

The pops go 1,2,4,8,16 etc. . . .

You're correct. My brain only popped twice. ;)

[cjbroadbent]

He said he is shooting black and white. If you were shooting color would the flourescent light be a problem?
In black and white why not just use available light and adjust your exposure and development times?
eric
Eric, right about B&W, I wasn't paying attention. The exposure/development times might not handle the difference between near the window and further inside the room (The Zone system works best outdoors). Neon as a source is pretty ugly so I suggest subdued bounce-fill to preserve the available light look.
If the composition allows it, chris could even use a neutral density wedge filter sideways and dispense with the fill.
In color, neon turns out greenish when you are filtering for daylight. Though, of course you might want that if you are doing a Hopper.

[ejohnson]

(The Zone system works best outdoors).

Why doesn't the zone system work indoors? Does film respond differently indoors and does the curve manipulate differently?

eric

[neil poulsen]

You could use what used to be called Fuji NPS for film. (I think it's the Fuji Pro 160S now.) It's good at mixed lighting situations, or at least the old NPS was.

To offset the green in the fluorescent lights, consider wrapping the tubes in about a 30 Magenta. Rosco filters are very affordable in larger sizes, and it doesn't sound like there would be that many tubes in a barbershop.

While I've not tried wrapping tubes, it's a well-known practice. Of course with digital techniques, corrections can be selected and "performed" in Photoshop.

If you want to have good depth of field and have everything in focus, you'll need to stop it down. F22 comes to my mind, depending on the focal length. More pops.

To gauge the number of pops and whether the wrapping would be necessary, you could stop by and take some preliminary photos with a smaller camera. This would also give you some information as to the need for wrapping.

[Kirk Gittings]

Neil, he is using B&W.....anyway with Fuji negative film and flash fill, it is not necessary usually to gel the fluorescents as the film (as you say) is very forgiving in mixed light situations. As architectural photographers we gave up on gelling flourescent tubes along time ago with the advent of more forgiving mixed light color films.

[CG]

... The Zone system works best outdoors ...

Ummm, what? I must use a different zone system, since the one I use has no idea what the light source may be.

C

[cjbroadbent]

(The Zone system works best outdoors).

Why doesn't the zone system work indoors? Does film respond differently indoors and does the curve manipulate differently?
eric
Eric, I said it works better in the great outdoors where our puny fill can't reach. Film and curve are the same anywhere. ZS does wonders in harsh uncontrolable lighting situations. But indoors, with the source of light in the shot and soft transition from one shadow area to the next and so on to black, ZS can't match a little help from a strobe or an HMI.
By the way, our brothers-in-law have a better Zone System than we have, built right in to their DSLRs. The cabbage patch which has be ours for more than a hundred years has been invaded by the HDR cloudies.

[ejohnson]

As a newbie I am confused. Do you have to wrap tubes for black and white?

Why doesn't the zone system work indoors?

Neon is red, blue, green, etc. Why would you wrap it and to do what?

Is it neon that I will find on the ceiling in a barbershop, or any industrial setting or is it flourescent and are they the same?

Sorry to be so new but I am trying to figure this out?

thanks

eric

[aduncanson]

To my knowledge:
Neon lights are a glass tub containing a gas (not always actually neon I would guess) which is excited by a high voltage. They are very nearly monochromatic.
Florescents are similar except that they emit invisible UV light which is then converted to visible light by a coating of phosphors on the inside of the tube. The mixtures of phosphors determines the color of the light (warm or cold.)

[JBrunner]

A note regarding B&W under mixed sources. I have found speed variations of up to a stop, depending on the spectral response of the film in relation to the color temperature of the light, particularly tungsten. Black and white films are generally formulated for daylight exposure, and often our testing follows suit, so the color temperature of the light can make a difference, and that difference varies from emulsion to emulsion. Sometimes it isn't enough to matter, but in situations where you are exposing into the shadows, its pretty easy to lose detail in dark hair etc, with some films, especially if it is compounded by some other error.

[Kirk Gittings]

aducanson, Simplistically speaking fluorescents go green on color films, hence the need for a 30 magenta (plus UV) filter for daylight film in the old days when all we had to contend with was cool white flourescents. These days films are more forgiving and common flourescents are more much more varied in color and more nuetral but not generally nuetral (though I have seen some imported from Germany for a Mini Cooper car dealership that were nearly nuetral. These may be the wave of the future). the interior lights on this image were cool white flourescents ca. 1985. Film was some kind of daylight Ektachrome.

[Frank Petronio]

Asking questions like these -- when the OP is coming at it with a blunt shoe mount flash approach -- is like someone else asking, "How do cameras work?" or "What are all the nuances of darkroom work, please explain in a single thread..."

Does he expect us to write him a customized book? I mean there are no stupid questions but... it would be respectful and considerate if the OP went online and read up a little bit so we wouldn't be spinning our wheels trying to explain everything to him.

Start by reading the lighting forum on photo.net; review the http://www.strobist.blogspot.com/; buy a copy of Ross Lowel's book, Matters of Light & Depth.

As for the original question, just shoot the scene straight. Then do a another sheet with some pops. Process, test, repeat or use a Polaroid/digicam to test. I won't say your shoe mt flash is worthless but chances are that it will be. In cases like this it probably makes more sense to do a long exposure and have the barbers turn off their interior lights at a certain point in the exposure (subtract the hot spots) rather than trying to add light to the scene with a tiny little toy flash.

Or do what some of the experts here would do... buy 53 Alien Bees and fry the fucker.

[neil poulsen]

Neil, he is using B&W.

He does say that, doesn't he. My blush. :o

(Thanks.)

[chris_4622]

Asking questions like these -- when the OP is coming at it with a blunt shoe mount flash approach -- is like someone else asking, "How do cameras work?" or "What are all the nuances of darkroom work, please explain in a single thread..."

Does he expect us to write him a customized book? I mean there are no stupid questions but... it would be respectful and considerate if the OP went online and read up a little bit so we wouldn't be spinning our wheels trying to explain everything to him.

Start by reading the lighting forum on photo.net; review the http://www.strobist.blogspot.com/; buy a copy of Ross Lowel's book, Matters of Light & Depth.

As for the original question, just shoot the scene straight. Then do a another sheet with some pops. Process, test, repeat or use a Polaroid/digicam to test. I won't say your shoe mt flash is worthless but chances are that it will be. In cases like this it probably makes more sense to do a long exposure and have the barbers turn off their interior lights at a certain point in the exposure (subtract the hot spots) rather than trying to add light to the scene with a tiny little toy flash.

Or do what some of the experts here would do... buy 53 Alien Bees and fry the fucker.

Hi Frank,

I know what you mean about not putting forth any effort in reading to learn how to do things but if you look at my past history you'll see I don't abuse this or any other forum with an attitude such as you suggest above.

I can ask a question and if you or anyone else wants to share your knowledge or experience you can, if not, that's okay too. I'm sorry I set you off by mentioning my "tiny little toy flash". I hope 8x10 and larger camera users don't look too harshly on my puny 5x7.

Hope your day goes better,

chris

PS. thanks for the link

[chris_4622]

To all, I thank you for responding. I appreciate this forum in the spirit of learning and sharing, and to the members for their knowledge and especially their willingness to share.

[ejohnson]

To all, I thank you for responding. I appreciate this forum in the spirit of learning and sharing, and to the members for their knowledge and especially their willingness to share.

And I hope to learn a lot here and contribute when I can.

Eric

[Jim Michael]

Re the neons, you could consider use of filters to accentuate the neon compared to the background or other neons in the scene, e.g. if the neon is red a red or orange filter might help it pop out a little more.