scanning pyro negs never works good......

[eddie]

hi all,

i have very little knowledge skills and abilities when i t comes to scanning. i do struggle through it but at time it is more frustrating that others. i get more enjoyment out of darkroom printing and various printing processes than working on a computer.

now i know the equipment is not that great, but i should be able to get usable stuff for the web i think.

i am using a HP scanjet 4050. i use the software it has come with. i have PS but very limited abilities. my major problem is with pyro HD negs. they seem to really F!@# with the scanner. i am unable to make minor easy adjustments to get them to look good.

i also use hc110 and the negs scan very very well. i am able to adjust them with basic adjustments and they look acceptable. the problem is i also want to use the negs for VDB. while the hc110 negs do print okay on VDB i like the pyro negs a bit better. the hc110 orints nicely on silver as well.

the pyro negs scan poorly but they print nicely on silver and a tad better on VDB than the hc110 negs.

so what can i do? buy a more expensive scanner and learn to use the computer (ARGH!), print the negs and scan the print (i get much better results this way.....i was just wanting to doa bit of "scanner proofing"), or just us hc110? is their a way to tell my scanner to scan differently when using pyro? is they a better scanner software that will see through the stain better. i know people out there scan their pyro negs very well....how do you do it!?

thanks for the help.

eddie

[Gem Singer]

Negatives developed in pyro usually scan the same as any other negative. I won't go into a discussion about the advantages of a higher quality scanner that is designed for scanning photo negatives, with a dedicated film holder, and better software than the HP4050.

You might be getting Newton Rings when you place the shiny side of the negative directly on the scanner's glass. Try placing the negative so that the emulsion side is contacting the glass. You'll get a reversed image, then reverse it in Photoshop.

Works for me.

[Ken Lee]

Which Pyro developer are you using ? In other words, what color are your negatives ?

Are you scanning in color, or in greyscale ?

All my negatives are developed in Pyrocat HD, and I don't have any special Pryo-only problems with them. I scan in 16-bit greyscale on an Epson 4990.

The HP driver software is probably similar to the Epson, since they all do the same basic thing. Perhaps this small article (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/scanning.html) would be helpful.

To that end, I live in Western MA, and if anyone would like to do a gathering with some scanning, shooting, and print sharing in the area, I'd love to host one. Or if you would like to come over some time Eddie, that would be great too - with or without your better half :)

[Ron Marshall]

I scan b/w negs in 48 bit color as a positive, then strip out the green channel, which is the usually the sharpest.

What software are you using for post scanning processing?

[dwhistance]

Given that you are contact printing (at least for the VDB) my suggestion would be just to scan the prints. That way you will be making the best use of the scanners abilities (I doubt it has a transparancy adapter large enough for LF film) as well as displaying the image as it appears in the print. Any other method will need some playing in the computer to get the scan looking like the final print.

David Whistance

[sanking]

In general pyro negatives scan very well. However, I suspect that your negatives may be so high in contrast that the density is overwhelming the capability of your scanner. The key to me is that you say that they print well in VDB. VDB is a process that requires a negative with very high contrast, optimum at about log 2.5. Adding expected B+F density of about log .25 to your negatives that puts the maximum density at about log 2.75, which would be beyond the capability of many consumer scanners.

Sandy King





hi all,

i have very little knowledge skills and abilities when i t comes to scanning. i do struggle through it but at time it is more frustrating that others. i get more enjoyment out of darkroom printing and various printing processes than working on a computer.

now i know the equipment is not that great, but i should be able to get usable stuff for the web i think.

i am using a HP scanjet 4050. i use the software it has come with. i have PS but very limited abilities. my major problem is with pyro HD negs. they seem to really F!@# with the scanner. i am unable to make minor easy adjustments to get them to look good.

i also use hc110 and the negs scan very very well. i am able to adjust them with basic adjustments and they look acceptable. the problem is i also want to use the negs for VDB. while the hc110 negs do print okay on VDB i like the pyro negs a bit better. the hc110 orints nicely on silver as well.

the pyro negs scan poorly but they print nicely on silver and a tad better on VDB than the hc110 negs.

so what can i do? buy a more expensive scanner and learn to use the computer (ARGH!), print the negs and scan the print (i get much better results this way.....i was just wanting to doa bit of "scanner proofing"), or just us hc110? is their a way to tell my scanner to scan differently when using pyro? is they a better scanner software that will see through the stain better. i know people out there scan their pyro negs very well....how do you do it!?

thanks for the help.

eddie

[eddie]

In general pyro negatives scan very well. However, I suspect that your negatives may be so high in contrast that the density is overwhelming the capability of your scanner. The key to me is that you say that they print well in VDB. VDB is a process that requires a negative with very high contrast, optimum at about log 2.5. Adding expected B+F density of about log .25 to your negatives that puts the maximum density at about log 2.75, which would be beyond the capability of many consumer scanners.

Sandy King

thanks so far everyone.

ken, i may be heading your way!!! you have been warned:)

sandy, i get nice VDB. i may not be getting perfect prints with all the possible tones but they look pretty good. others who have seen them have had positive comments as well. i usually print in the sun and i get exposures of 2-4 minutes typically in the summer.

should i try for less contrast? how?

thanks

eddie

[sanking]

Eddie,

Sounds like you are developing just fine for printing with VDB since you need a lot of contrast to ge good results and you are apparently getting it with your time of development.

The problem may simply be that the scanner can not handle this much contrast. If so, you could develop less for lower contrast, but then your negatives will not print as well in VDB?

Sandy King



thanks so far everyone.

ken, i may be heading your way!!! you have been warned:)

sandy, i get nice VDB. i may not be getting perfect prints with all the possible tones but they look pretty good. others who have seen them have had positive comments as well. i usually print in the sun and i get exposures of 2-4 minutes typically in the summer.

should i try for less contrast? how?

thanks

eddie

[Ken Lee]

What is VDB ?

[sanking]

Ken,

VDB is short for Vandyke Brown. It is an alternative process that requires a very long scale negative of the type that would be about right for printing with pure palladium.

Sandy King




What is VDB ?

[walterb]

Which Pyro developer are you using ? In other words, what color are your negatives ?

Are you scanning in color, or in greyscale ?

All my negatives are developed in Pyrocat HD, and I don't have any special Pryo-only problems with them. I scan in 16-bit greyscale on an Epson 4990.

The HP driver software is probably similar to the Epson, since they all do the same basic thing. Perhaps this small article (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/scanning.html) would be helpful.

To that end, I live in Western MA, and if anyone would like to do a gathering with some scanning, shooting, and print sharing in the area, I'd love to host one. Or if you would like to come over some time Eddie, that would be great too - with or without your better half :)
Ken
I would certainly be interested in a gathering on scanning etc.
I live in Western Ma, in West Stockbridge. Just let me know.

Walterb

[Gary Samson]

Hi Eddie,
I scan large format negatives (5x7 & 8x10) processed with Pyrocat and PMK Pyro developers with an Epson 750V and I get great results. in fact, I would say that the pyro negatives scan better than the conventionally developed negatives.

[mcfactor]

I had the same problem with my g4050. i eventually realized that if i scanned the image as a positive and invert the colors, the get a very even, nice scan. for some reason, the negative function of the scanner, when used for b&w gives way too much power, creating a scan with very few mid-tones.

Since i figured this out, i have been getting some very nice scans as you can see on my website: http://www.noahmclaurine.visualsever.com

[eddie]

thanks! i will try it!

i could not get the link to your site to work i would like to see it.

cheers

eddie


I had the same problem with my g4050. i eventually realized that if i scanned the image as a positive and invert the colors, the get a very even, nice scan. for some reason, the negative function of the scanner, when used for b&w gives way too much power, creating a scan with very few mid-tones.

Since i figured this out, i have been getting some very nice scans as you can see on my website: http://www.noahmclaurine.visualsever.com

[Ken Lee]

A small typo... Try this one, with the word "server": http://www.noahmclaurine.visualserver.com/

[mcfactor]

Thanks! thats what i get for trying to post at work

[eddie]

okay, 1st things 1st. how do i invert in CS3? i scanned as a positive as suggested above but can not invert it!

here are two examples of my problems. basic (I mean real basic) adjustments for high, low and middle values. note how bad the thistle on the table looks in the 2nd photo. for some reason the scanner hates this neg. the only difference is one is f6 the other f11. the f11 may be slightly underexposed....slightly.

the two portraits are so bad i just deleted them! arrrggghhh!

thanks

eddie

[Erik Larsen]

Hi Eddie,
In cs2 to invert you would go to adjustments menu>Invert. I assume it is the same in cs3 but I'm not sure. Not sure how to diagnose what's up with the thistle. good luck
Erik