Alien Bees or????

[BradS]

Ok, I have finally decided to get some lights. As this is strictly a...er, a hobby (i.e. I earn a living doing something unrelated to LF photography), I'd like to not spend a fortune. I;m shooting small groups of people with 4x5. I use mainly 320TXP and HP5+.

I was looking into Speedotron packs and heads but, I think I need something more portable.

So, this brings me to point...

Will a couple of Alien Bee 1600's be enough? What f/ stop can I get?

Same question for the White Lightning 3200's

I would really like to get a couple of Speedotron Force 10 monolihts but the cost is prohibitive. Can I get by with one? even one would be well beyond my means right now. ...I have maybe $800 to spend - if I sell another lens....

[lenser]

Two answers, Brad. Buff sells damn good equipment so either system will be good. I would recommend as much power as you can afford. You can always power down the units if you need to, but if you bought too little, all you can do is buy another unit to make up for your mistake. In large format, you will find yourself often wanting more and more power.

Of the two, I would go with the 3200's. You will have not only the greater power, but a wider range of adjustment on the power scale.

I have used 1800 Ultras and the X3200 series for many years and have found the ompany to be wonderfully responsive in the three times I've needed repairs (in nearly 30 years of use).

You'll love them.

[Frank Petronio]

My two cents is that you can do individual portraits at f/5.6 or f/8 (ISO 320) all day long with a couple of 300-watt Lowel Tota-Lights (constant Halogen lights) and umbrellas. Rugged, idiot-proof, and a good value ($100 per Tota) so you can buy the better quality stands, umbrellas, grip gear, etc. instead of cheap plastic knock-off crap.

But once you introduce a second person into a lit shot, you need extra depth of field. And hot lights bright enough for that are, well, hot. So strobe it is. But rather than blowing all $800 on plastic hillbilly lights, be patient and haunt eBay for a few weeks and wait for a nice older Dynalite kit to come up. The older D-series is ridiculously cheap, and in spite of being over 20 years old, it's not really more than a third larger/heavier than the current models. And it just works. You can afford to buy spares of everything. For example, I have bought two fan-cooled heads and an 800-watt D-series pack for an average price of $300 several times over now. Once I got three heads and two packs for $450. At those prices it is silly to even bother fixing things or replacing tubes -- just buy another head.

One 800 watt pack into a head, with a 48-inch umbrella 3-4 feet away from a couple of subjects will easily give you f/16 (ISO 320 film). For a large group, two packs and two heads on really tall stands will give you f/11 but you'll be standing further back and should be good to go. If you want to kill the larger shots, get four packs, rent, borrow, etc.

If the pack and heads are working after 20 years, another 4-5 years ain't going to kill them any deader.

You don't need 1/10 of an f-stop adjustments or 1 sec recycle times for large format....

With any of these AC strobes be sure to have some sort of sync protection for your delicate digital camera. Those $45 remote syncs on eBay work as well as the $2-300 name-brand ones.

With the savings, buy some of those nice, strong Lowel light stands (for more than just the heads), a couple of small and large Photek umbrellas, and a couple of good transport cases for it all. Maybe even a canvas background.

Less than $800 and you'll out rock any new Alien Bee set-up. But I'm a snob, pre-apologies to all the Paul C. Buff zealots.

[Paul Kierstead]

But rather than blowing all $800 on plastic hillbilly lights

You are probably being a bit unfair, but I'll admit I'm still grinning and laughing for sometime after reading this.

I don't know a lot about big strobes; I own and use a couple of Photogenics (which work wonderfully) and that is about my brand knowledge. However, I will warn you that if you intend on doing things other then small groups, LF can take a tremendous amount of strobe power; I was quite shocked, requiring multiple pops of my strobes in some cases.

[Don Dudenbostel]

Speedotrons have been the primary lighting system in my studio for twenty years. I guess at one point when LF was king of the commercial world I had over 40k watt seconds in 2400 & 4800 ws packs. I sold the large packs when digital became the standard and bought 8 force 10's. The force 10 units are great lights and have stood up to heavy travel and hard grinding use with no problems. Speedo units are industrial strength unlike other brands. They're designed to run all day as hard as you can run them with no problems. My only complaint is the slave is a little directional so sometimes I have to plugin an external slave. I also bought 5 alien bees for portraits and when I want to shoot at 1.4 or 2. I've had the bees since they came out and use them heavily and have had absolutely no problems. They're very light, rugged, cheap, tubes are dirt cheap very fast recycling. They also have steples power setting. IMO they are a super value and have great flexability. How many people in your groups? I personally would feel better with more power than 2 bees. Take a look at used speedo packs like a 1200ws & two 103 or 102 heads. Even a couple of 800's would work. Most manufactures over rate their light output but speedo is fairly honest.

Suggestion, get uv coated tubes.

[Frank Petronio]

Actually I think I may break down and try some of those "plastic hillbilly lights" since they appeal to my tightwad, keep it simple approach, they do seem like a pretty good value, especially when you compare how cheaply made and packaged the monolights are from the supposedly great European strobe-makers like Elinchrom and Bron-Color....

The only thing that stops me -- and this is very vain and a shortcoming on my part -- is my prejudice of the stupid cornpone colors and graphics that they call their "brand identity" and product design. Those strobes are so ugly that when they pass by a bathroom, all the toilets flush.

[John Kasaian]

Actually I think I may break down and try some of those "plastic hillbilly lights" since they appeal to my tightwad, keep it simple approach, they do seem like a pretty good value, especially when you compare how cheaply made and packaged the monolights are from the supposedly great European strobe-makers like Elinchrom and Bron-Color....

The only thing that stops me -- and this is very vain and a shortcoming on my part -- is my prejudice of the stupid cornpone colors and graphics that they call their "brand identity" and product design. Those strobes are so ugly that when they pass by a bathroom, all the toilets flush.

LOL, beauty is as beauty does, Frank :D I have a Mole Richardson and a pair of large Silverdome NXTs and when I plug them in the North Valley has a brown-out :o

[Donald Miller]

I started with 880ws Novatrons and a couple of Bowens monolights twenty five years ago. When I went to more existing light photography, I sold off the Novatrons.

I recently bought Profoto compacts (2-600ws and 1-1200ws heads). I learned from my first experience with the Novatrons that you get what you pay for. The Profotos are quite a bit more heady than $800. My other consideration was that I can use these heads with either 110 VAC or 220 VAC since I planned for European usage.

[Jim C.]

The only thing that stops me -- and this is very vain and a shortcoming on my part -- is my prejudice of the stupid cornpone colors and graphics that they call their "brand identity" and product design. Those strobes are so ugly that when they pass by a bathroom, all the toilets flush.

ROTFLOL, they definitely aren't sexy pretty , but a little black gaff tape will take care of the graphics and they do offer black as a color.

On the other hand Calumet is selling a mono light series called Genesis, ( definitely more pro looking ;) )and I'm tempted to try one since the price is very competitive to the Alien Bees, the only minus is that they're offered in 200ws and 400ws.

[Ron Marshall]

The White Lightnings are not much more expensive, but are better built than AB. For two people you will need two lights. The output charts on the AB/WL site are accurate. I have three 1600s, and they have enough output.

[Mark Sampson]

I'll second Frank on the Dyna-lites. They've served me well on the job for many years. Lots of bang for the buck, very reliable, and I haven't broken my back (yet) from carrying them around.

[BradS]

I'm preparing to shoot a family re-union. I plan to be out doors in shade (behind the Lake Natoma Inn in Folsom) in the afternoon. These will be informal-ish family portraits of the family groups - so, four to six people at a time is pretty standard. I've done this before with only natural lighting with variable results. When there is a nice over cast sky, no problem but when the sky clears and I have to move people to the shade, I have trouble getting to f/16 - which just doesn't get the job done...that, and prints tend to be a bit flat in the shade.

So, anyway, as much as the packs and heads appeal to me, they're probably more hassle than I'm willing to deal with on location.

So, I need 250 watt modelling light(s) and enough stobe power to get me to at least f/22 in open shade....and, I need to light a group of six or so....Will one X3200 get me there? two?

[Frank Petronio]

A huge sheet (silk) on tall C-stands and four or more full-blasting hot rod strobes actually. You'll need a lot of power.... You're basically talking about doing the same things as the old school car photographers.

Here's a corny old shot from when I was younger and dumber. I brought along a couple of 2400 watt Speedos and fired them at the crowd. They added 1/3 of a stop.

[Aahx]

LOL Frank… that was an amusing way to put it. And no even though I am a self proclaimed WL zealot I don’t take your comments negatively or personaly. The following is why.

Dynalights are awesome... but the WL ultra units IMHO are in the same category of quality. I have a pair of 1800' I have been using for 18 years and in that time have only had 1 problem which they fixed in under a week (warranty) and they paid shipping back. I also have used 4 x3200's for 7 years and again only one problem on one light among those. And these x3200's get some use. On average I shoot 20 to 40 portraits a week, and some days I shoot over 150+ portraits in single day. They are workhorses that have done very well for me. Mind you most of the time I only use 3 (two mains with soft boxes, and one backlight), but still ... reliability is king when your business depends on it. With a good case these can be quite portable as well, though not near as small or as light as the “bee’s”. But knowing the mishaps that can occur on location shoots, I would rather have the knowledge that my lights can handle a bump or two and keep on going. Then have pieces of lights strewn across the floor and the job potentially being at an end. So as for the bee’s I cannot vouch. But the ultra’s are well worth the money.

[Ben Calwell]

Speedotrons are great, but I must say that, not long after purchasing a 2400 watt second Black Line pack and two heads about ten years ago, a capacitor blew in the pack about a week after it arrived, and I had to send it back to Speedotron, which they fixed.
I'll never forget it -- smoke rolled out of the pack while I stood there watching with a kicked in the stomach feeling.

[Michael Graves]

Speedotrons are great, but I must say that, not long after purchasing a 2400 watt second Black Line pack and two heads about ten years ago, a capacitor blew in the pack about a week after it arrived, and I had to send it back to Speedotron, which they fixed.
I'll never forget it -- smoke rolled out of the pack while I stood there watching with a kicked in the stomach feeling.

That's a familiar feeling! The pop a Norman 2000 makes when it blows is only moderately less terrifying than the prodigious amount of smoke that fills the studio. If anyone has any direct experience with the Alien Bees, I'd like it if they chimed in as well. I've got a pretty massive Speedo outfit, but it sucks for going on location. I, too am looking for something a heck of a lot lighter, but with some good punch.

[SAShruby]

I think you should go with Normans. They're cheap, you can get 2400W strobes with 300w modeling lights for 150$-$175 on Ebay and buy one 4000W pack for $400-$600. You'll get plenty of light. In fact there is one for sale right now.

I have couple 4000w packs and six 2400W IL-2500's and two 4000W strobes.

[Peter De Smidt]

In studio we use Speedo black line, but on location we use Dynalites, both 2000 and 1000 watt powerpacks. Both work pretty well for their intended use. Recently we added two sets of Dynalite monolights. So far so good.

[Dan Schmidt]

I use two AB1600's for 8x10 studio shooting, Mostly I use a 300 mm lens and get f/16 with FP4+ (rated at 100) with brolly boxes (type of shoot through umbrella). I have been very happy with them. They are nice and light if you need to tote them around

I have strongly thought about the Zeus powerpack system from them too, Also they are supposed to have a new line of monolights called Einstein

[1Good1]

My first location shoot in the basement of a highschool in Pocotello, ID shooting a family of 5. The other two photographers were packing their sets back to the van at the end of the shoot.

OK the 3 yr old is looking, take the picture . . . a .44 mag is fired in my ear and the room fills with smoke. 2 kids crying as every one runs out of the basement scared to death. The other two photographers are laughing outside by the van as I take care of the smoking norman pack and try to salvage a family portrait. Blown packs are loud in small places and they get your heart going.

Alien Bees: Ugly. Durable. Consistent. Cheap. I have had 800's on a stand with an unbrella tip over. After straitening the bent unbrella and replaing the light bulb (I hate to call it a modeling light) it was as good as new.

The built in photo slave is too recessed and sometimes doesn't "see" the other flash in bright situations.

I have never had a problem with them. In and out of vans, dance studios, middle and highschools, and lots of other locations; they just work.

Per Frank's advice, don't set them up near restrooms :)

Cheers,
Jeff

[davidp]

The only good thing about AB's are their cheap. No offense to the dudes that make them but they are not the best in my opinion. my bosses one always misfires, I wouldn't trust it, especially in Australia where it is 10-20 dollars for a single shot and it always weirdly just turns itself off? after like 3 shots. and at lower powers sometimes it has colour shifts. The light can be kinda strong/harsh which I like too. If your willing to spend the money go profoto. If you use pocketwizards their cool cause they have a built in pocket wizard. I think they make the most powerful flashes with the fastest flash duration. Just their super expensive!! light is really really nice though and such a solid build. that's just my 2 cents.

[bumgardnern]

I am a photo assistant and work with a wide range of photographers and equipment. I have worked with all of the major brands. From my experince with tons of different units my preference ranking is Alien Bees, followed by Profoto for my top two spots. I like working with Alien Bees because they are light, durable, and cheap.

AB units work well. I have never had any major problems with the AB units and I use them almost every day.

On the other hand if you have a big job and want to impress clients that need to be impressed then use the Profoto units. Another benefit to Profoto is that most every major rental house carries them.

[erie patsellis]

Well, unless you luck into some older, quality lights like Elinchrom or Broncolor, the AB's can't be beat for the money. These deals, however, do come up, I bought 3 Broncolor packs (2-304 and a 404) and 5 heads (1 bi tube) for $400. The downside is light modifiers (speedrings, actually) are scarce, I've modified some ebay cheapies to work, while I scrounge up some real Broncolor UL speedrings (and some more reflectors), but overall, well worth the money I spent.

[Peter De Smidt]

Of all the flash equipment I've used, I prefer Broncolor, but only if I don't have to buy it ;) Just FYI, we recently bought some Dyna-lite 400 Jr monolights with jackrabbit battery packs. I got a call yesterday from one of our photographers on location 1000 miles away. Apparently, two head and three batteries died yesterday. Since we've only had these kits for two months or so, that's completely unacceptable.