Sweet Spot

[PenGun]

I think with the availability of cheap large inkjets that do an amazing job and pretty good flatbed scanners there is a sweet spot for an aspiring artist to own all his tools.

I have a Chamonix and enough stuff to shoot and develop at about $1500. An Epson V750 is about $700 and an HP Z3100 is $2000 for the PS model. Under $4500 for the lot, cheaper than some DSLRs and a much more fertile ground for expression. I could not build a good darkroom and print to 24x30 for anywhere near that. The scanner is the weak link but it is also the cheapest and there are services for ultimate quality.

[Frank Petronio]

Good point -- but you can get the budget down even less!

[Ken Lee]

I am at the same sweet spot, you might say.

An approach I have taken, to surmount the limitations of affordable flatbed scanners, has been to acquire a 5x7 kit for my Sinar. With 5x7, an 11x14 image represents such a modest enlargement, that few, even on this forum, would opine that even my humble 4990 is up to the task. Even so, the 4x5 negatives scan very nicely on it, enough for my pedestrian tastes.

Don't forget to account for a computer of sufficient power, and a decent monitor... plus monitor calibration software. You might want to get your printer profiled for your chosen paper/ink combination(s).

...and then there's the cost of image editing software. If you are shooting Large Format, you can't possibly limit yourself to the GIMP, with its limitation of only 8-bit images. (Which means you start with 8 bits - before any adjustments are applied - and go go down (http://www.kenleegallery.com/bronze.html#16-bit) from there). So to get Photoshop, you may have to add a few more shekels to the equation.

My point is, there are lots of "hidden" costs. But it's still much cheaper than a psychiatrist. :rolleyes:

[David A. Goldfarb]

Under $4500 for the lot, cheaper than some DSLRs and a much more fertile ground for expression. I could not build a good darkroom and print to 24x30 for anywhere near that.

Yes you could with cash to spare. People are giving away darkroom equipment these days, and even high end items are available used for a fraction of their new price. In recent years I've been able to upgrade to three Apo lenses, glass neg carriers, a Saunders V-Track easel, stainless steel trays, stainless tanks for rollfilm in five sizes, etc., because all of these things that I could only dream of at one time can be had today for a pittance.

Also, since I've gotten a decent inkjet printer, I'm fairly sure I've spent a good deal more per print on ink and paper than I spend on chemistry and paper for my darkroom prints.


My point is, there are lots of "hidden" costs. But it's still much cheaper than a psychiatrist. :rolleyes:

Or a sports car.

[Jim Jones]

To get around the 8-bit limitation in PSE-5, I use the equally inexpensive Picture Window Pro to do do some adjustments in 16 bit. A modest computer suffices for someone with time and patience. By correcting mistakes on a computer screen, printing costs are no higher than in a wet darkroom, and it's much more convenient.

A B&J 5x7 flatbed and B&J 5x7 monorail with tripods and several backs and lenses cost under $1000. The flatbed has given me over 30 years of service.

[PenGun]

I am at the same sweet spot, you might say.

An approach I have taken, to surmount the limitations of affordable flatbed scanners, has been to acquire a 5x7 kit for my Sinar. With 5x7, an 11x14 image represents such a modest enlargement, that few, even on this forum, would opine that even my humble 4990 is up to the task. Even so, the 4x5 negatives scan very nicely on it, enough for my pedestrian tastes.

Don't forget to account for a computer of sufficient power, and a decent monitor... plus monitor calibration software. You might want to get your printer profiled for your chosen paper/ink combination(s).

...and then there's the cost of image editing software. If you are shooting Large Format, you can't possibly limit yourself to the GIMP, with its limitation of only 8-bit images. (Which means you start with 8 bits - before any adjustments are applied - and go go down (http://www.kenleegallery.com/bronze.html#16-bit) from there). So to get Photoshop, you may have to add a few more shekels to the equation.

My point is, there are lots of "hidden" costs. But it's still much cheaper than a psychiatrist. :rolleyes:

Oh my. I'm a bad person. I've been hosting stuff on my servers for a long time and as a Stainless Steel rat, part time BOFH I have computers. I tend to take whatever I want and although I actually did pay for Photoshop 3.?, an $800 charge I have much more sophisticated versions kicking around here and there.

I run Linux on all my machines and I do have an XP install or so sitting around in various places. I may pay for Vuescan for Linux otherwise I pretty well have everything I need and, well, the internet is my toy.

FilmGIMP is 16 bit and I kinda like the idea of using Pixar's Cinerella as a still editor. Some very cool ideas in that suite of tools.
The HP Z3100 does it's own profiles with an onboard Macbeth spectrophotometer.

Reichmann's HP Z3100 vs the Epson Stylus Pro 9800 review:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/hp-comparison.shtml

[Ken Lee]

Thanks for the reference to FilmGIMP, which I was able to find under CinePaint (http://www.cinepaint.org/). Can you find Linux drivers for your printer ?

I had to look up BOFH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BOFH).

I also had to look up Stainless Steel rat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainless_Steel_Rat).

I do hope you stick around the forum and share your knowledge. Much obliged.

[venchka]

Why hasn't someone made a movie based on the Stainless Steel Rat?

Back on topic: I have filled my station wagon three times with darkroom hardware for the cost of gasoline to get it. Alas, I'm also going broke picking up questionable "free" stuff. Two shutters were sent off to Carol Miller this week. Nothing is ever really free. However, close to free beats the alternative.

Film, Paper & chemistry vs. therapy. Film, paper & chemistry ARE therapy, HEY!

[Marko]

Yes you could with cash to spare. People are giving away darkroom equipment these days, and even high end items are available used for a fraction of their new price. In recent years I've been able to upgrade to three Apo lenses, glass neg carriers, a Saunders V-Track easel, stainless steel trays, stainless tanks for rollfilm in five sizes, etc., because all of these things that I could only dream of at one time can be had today for a pittance.

Sure you can get used traditional darkroom equipment for very cheap these days. But have you looked at used digital equipment prices lately? :)

Even so, new digital can as well be cheaper to own and operate than traditional darkroom simply because it only needs a desk and a chair. No dedicated room, no special plumbing and ventilation, no chemical storage and disposal, washers, driers and a host of other items that go into even a semi-decent traditional lab.

How much does your home cost you per square foot (meter)? To buy, to maintain, to vent, heat, cool, pay taxes, etc...

Nothing against traditional darkroom, mind you. I spent my fair share of time in there back in the 70's and 80's. I even started doing it again recently, since a friend of a friend owns a really well-appointed custom lab that he's willing to share.

But speaking of comparisons, only an objective and rational one makes any sense.

[venchka]

...

But speaking of comparisons, only an objective and rational one makes any sense.

That takes all the fun out. Most of us spend 99% of their adult lives doing the responsible things like earning a living, providing shelter for our familes, keeping food on the table, providing an education for our children, defending our country, etc., etc., etc., ad nausea.

A few hours spent in persuit of an anachronistic hobby-craft-art is pleasurable for some of us.

Since 1981 I've been employed full time at a computer. I associate computers with work. I associate traditional photographic production with NON-work.

[Marko]

Since 1981 I've been employed full time at a computer. I associate computers with work. I associate traditional photographic production with NON-work.

I'm a web developer, can hardly spend more time at the computer than that, but I thoroughly enjoy my work. For me, photography is a way to connect the fun I'm being paid for with the fun I pay for. :)

[venchka]

Hey, whatever works. It's all good. Different strokes for different folks.

[PenGun]

Thanks for the reference to FilmGIMP, which I was able to find under CinePaint (http://www.cinepaint.org/). Can you find Linux drivers for your printer ?

I had to look up BOFH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BOFH).

I also had to look up Stainless Steel rat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainless_Steel_Rat).

I do hope you stick around the forum and share your knowledge. Much obliged.
Cinepaint does OpenEXR, Pixar's RAW format:

http://www.openexr.com/downloads.html

Which is what Cinelerra uses :

http://cvs.cinelerra.org/

Now Cinelerra is a video editor, but on steroids. I will play with it for still editing.

I should be able to get the post script drivers working. Post script is supposed to be OS independent. You get the Windose drivers and well:

http://www.novell.com/support/search.do?cmd=displayKC&docType=kc&externalId=7001441&sliceId=1&docTypeID=DT_TID_1_1

I'll get CUPS working and then we'll see.

[PenGun]

Oh my. I think I just made a deal on a Scanview 5000 drum scanner. Some problems, etched drums, but cheap and I do love a challenge.

If I can get that puppy running well I will be pleased.