Have an old Epson 1280 collecting dust

[bsimison]

Howdy,

I'm using an Epson 3800 these days and love the output. However, I've got an old Epson 1280 sitting around collecting dust and have been wondering if there's any logic to converting it to a monochrome-only printer using a CIS and something like Jon Cone's Piezography system. Are there any advantages to a monochrome-only printer over the latest Epson K3 printers for B+W prints?

Thanks!
-Brett

[Walter Calahan]

Better than it collects dust. Grin.

I think you could find a better machine out there for a monochrome printer.

[Eric Brody]

I too have an Epson 1280, which I no longer use for photography since I too have a 3800. I cannot believe you will get better black and white prints than with the K3 inks in the 3800. I suspect that the hassle of setting up the 1280 with another ink set will just divert time, money and energy from other more worthwhile pursuits. I have kept my 1280 to use for printing documents. It works well, has not clogged, and is cheaper to run than printing credit card statements and other similar stuff on the 3800. If you really do not plan to use it, I suspect there is a school or other worthwhile group who could put it to use.

Eric

[Jeffrey Sipress]

Forget all that carbon powder, custom cartridge, special driver, can't-see-what-you'll-get piezo nonsense. It is a pain in the ass.

Life got real when the 4800 came out. Go with epson.

[bsimison]

Thanks, guys. That's about what I figured. Just hate to see hardware go to waste, even if that hardware was a major PITA in its lifetime.

[Brian Ellis]

I have a 3800 and a 1280. In the past it would have made a lot of sense to use the 1280 as a monochrome-only printer but not today. For $50 you can get Roy Harrington's QTR for your 3800 and make better b&w prints, plus have more toning flexibility, than you'd get with monochrome inks in the 1280. But I wouldn't let the 1280 just sit there. Plug it in and use it for documents and other non-photographic things. The longer you can delay paying $500 for a new ink set for your 3800 the better. That's what I've done and it seems to pay off, I've had my 3800 for a year and a half and I'm still on the ink set that came with it. Not sure why your 1280 was a PITA, mine has been a great printer since I bought many years ago, never had a clog, never had a problem of any kind.

[Kirk Gittings]

I agree that the 3800 is capable of exquisite prints. I use one myself. But many knowledgeable people would argue that making black and white prints from colored inks creates more archival issues than using monotone inks. Some colored inks are shown to be the first to fade in some tests. If you have ever had a colored ink clog on your 3800 you can see how much importance certain colors play in the final "black and white" result. When the K3 colored inks fade they create both density loss and a color shift whereas monotone inks just lose density.

You can read more about this here:
http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/info/1000-hours.html#explain

Therefore, the belief is that the prints from monochrome inks fade more acceptably.

[Kirk Keyes]

I'm still using my 1270 - I'm jealous of you guys with a 1280...

[dwhistance]

I'd use it for Jon Cone's Piezography K6 inks. Much better than K3 B&W, the only drawback being that it is fixed tone. I don't think you can buy cartridges anymore in the US which is a shame as the investment in a CIS/bottles is quite high if for any reason you don't like it. I'd suggest you phone Cone for samples before going down this route.

David Whistance

[B.S.Kumar]

See Paul Roark's website for more information on how to continue using your 1280 for black and white prints. http://paulroark.com/

Or Clayton Jones' site http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Kumar

[bsimison]

Not sure why your 1280 was a PITA, mine has been a great printer since I bought many years ago, never had a clog, never had a problem of any kind.

Probably a little revisionist history on my part -- the 1280 produced some nice prints, but not without a lot of work. It clogged often, the heads were always out of alignment, and the color shifting drove me nuts. There was also a botched experiment with roll panorama paper that resulted in a lot of swearing a jumping up and down by me. I wasn't sorry to shelve it when the 3800 arrived.


Therefore, the belief is that the prints from monochrome inks fade more acceptably.

How do you personally address this, Kirk? Do you think it's enough of an issue to warrant a dedicated mono printer?

-Brett

[jon.oman]

See Paul Roark's website for more information on how to continue using your 1280 for black and white prints. http://paulroark.com/

Or Clayton Jones' site http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Kumar


I read the first link with interest! With the B&W print driver, it appears that you would only be using the B&W inks, unlike the Epson print driver. Is this correct? If so, could you run the printer with the color inks totally depleted? I have an Epson R800 that I would like to use as a B&W printer. I do not want to use it for color printing. It would be nice if I could do so, without having color inks in it. With the Epson print driver, if just one color is depleted, the printer will not run.

Jon

[B.S.Kumar]

I don't think you can run any printer with even one ink totally depleted. It's either replacing the color inks with monochrome inks, or using only the black inks for printing. Both Paul and Clayton are frequent and generous contributors to the Digital B&W and QTR forums. Reading the posts there would answer most of your questions.
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com

Cheers,
Kumar

[jon.oman]

I don't think you can run any printer with even one ink totally depleted. It's either replacing the color inks with monochrome inks, or using only the black inks for printing. Both Paul and Clayton are frequent and generous contributors to the Digital B&W and QTR forums. Reading the posts there would answer most of your questions.
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com

Cheers,
Kumar

Thanks Kumar, I'll check it out.

Jon

[paulr]

I think the piezo system is superior to anything Epson has dreamed up.

The 1280 works well for it. The print quality is amazing. Only trouble is that the build quality of the printer is poor, so it may not to hold up to a whole lot of use before getting weird on you.

[Brian Ellis]

I agree that the 3800 is capable of exquisite prints. I use one myself. But many knowledgeable people would argue that making black and white prints from colored inks creates more archival issues than using monotone inks. Some colored inks are shown to be the first to fade in some tests. If you have ever had a colored ink clog on your 3800 you can see how much importance certain colors play in the final "black and white" result. When the K3 colored inks fade they create both density loss and a color shift whereas monotone inks just lose density.

You can read more about this here:
http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/info/1000-hours.html#explain

Therefore, the belief is that the prints from monochrome inks fade more acceptably.

Not exactly an unbiased source. Inkjetmall is, of course, the manufacturer and seller of Jon Cone's piezo monochrome inks. I'm not saying he's wrong, I certainly don't know enough about all this stuff to make an informed judgment. But when someone whose livelihood depends on selling a particular product tells me he has tested his product and the tests he performed show that his product is better than the competition, I take the test results with several grains of salt.

[Brian Ellis]

I think the piezo system is superior to anything Epson has dreamed up.

The 1280 works well for it. The print quality is amazing. Only trouble is that the build quality of the printer is poor, so it may not to hold up to a whole lot of use before getting weird on you.

Paul - Could you let us know the basis for your thought that the piezo system is superior to anything Epson has dreamed up and in what way they're superior? I ask because the results I've been getting from Epson inks and QTR in an Epson 3800 are outstanding, significantly better in terms of shadow and highlight detail than I got when I was using dedicated monochrome inks (MIS), though some of that may be attributable to the different printers as well.

Maybe I just stumbled on the mother of all 1280s but I've had mine for about 7 years now, from whenever they first came on the market. It's still cranking along just fine for document work and AFAIK would still work fine for photographs.

[paulr]

I haven't done any rigorous comparison. Just seen results of various systems, made by different people. So of course there are a lot of uncontrolled variables.

My standard for pigment inks is the older, 4-color, all carbon pigment piezo system. Supposedly the newer systems are even better, as far as smoothness goes, although I have a hard time imagining smoother tones that whay I get. One of the holy grails of the new piezo inksets is pure neutral grays, which I don't happen to care about.

I haven't used the MIS system, but friends who have used both it and piezo have ditched MIS immediately.

To my eyes, the epson prints look like very good inkjet prints, or monochrome c-prints, depending on paper. The piezo prints look like the best alt process prints I've ever seen (imagine platinum, but with the d-max of mat-finish silver paper).

[D. Bryant]

I haven't done any rigorous comparison. Just seen results of various systems, made by different people. So of course there are a lot of uncontrolled variables.

My standard for pigment inks is the older, 4-color, all carbon pigment piezo system. Supposedly the newer systems are even better, as far as smoothness goes, although I have a hard time imagining smoother tones that whay I get. One of the holy grails of the new piezo inksets is pure neutral grays, which I don't happen to care about.

I haven't used the MIS system, but friends who have used both it and piezo have ditched MIS immediately.

To my eyes, the epson prints look like very good inkjet prints, or monochrome c-prints, depending on paper. The piezo prints look like the best alt process prints I've ever seen (imagine platinum, but with the d-max of mat-finish silver paper).

I found this article by Tyler Boley an interesting read:

http://www.custom-digital.com/2008/09/bw-print-quality/

Don Bryant

[bsimison]

...when someone whose livelihood depends on selling a particular product tells me he has tested his product and the tests he performed show that his product is better than the competition, I take the test results with several grains of salt.

And it's exactly this grain of salt that I'm looking for by asking this question here. There's a lot of marketing hype surrounding these systems, and I'm wondering what the real-world version is. I'll contact Jon Cone and see if he can send me some print samples.

I'm also interested in some of what Paul Roark has been doing. His articles certainly look intriguing; don't know what the results look like in person. I like the *idea* of mixing your own inks (see his site regarding the Carbon-6 inkset), but I worry that the *reality* is yet another rabbit hole to follow...another magic bullet to pursue.

As for the suggestions to use my 1280 as a document printer, if I didn't already have a decent laser printer that would be a valid option. I'm either going to retask this printer as a monochrome device or take it behind the shed and put it down.

[bsimison]

And by the way, how is it that the Epson court decision effects the refillable cartridges and not CIS? Was the ruling specific to the design of the cartridges?

Thanks to everyone who has contributed answers. Interesting stuff.

[paulr]

I think the advantage of the monochrome systems is their specialization. Epson needs to deliver a jack of all trades product, that can print in color or monochrome on a huge range of surfaces, with a single inkset.

Guys like cone don't have to deliver that. They focus on letting you make the best print possible, within a very narrow range of circumstances.

My piezo printer has a much narrower range than my darkroom prints ... and I printed on nothing but Fortezo grade 3 for ten years! My digital profile is for a single paper; my inks print in a single, unvariable color ... which luckily is one that I like.

In exchange for the lost versatilty I get consistent results that I love, in terms of tonal qualities and print clarity.

[Brian Ellis]

And by the way, how is it that the Epson court decision effects the refillable cartridges and not CIS? Was the ruling specific to the design of the cartridges?

Thanks to everyone who has contributed answers. Interesting stuff.

My understanding is that the ruling affected only cartridges and not even all cartridges. I vaguely recall that it was only the cartridges used in desk top printers and not some of the pro models or something like that. However, my memory is sketchy and I didn't know that much about it even at the time. Someone else here no doubt knows more than I do and can correct or amplify.

[Brian Ellis]

paulr said: "I haven't used the MIS system, but friends who have used both it and piezo have ditched MIS immediately."

Now you're making me feel bad. : - ) I used MIS inks for several years and was always very happy with the results. One reason I never tried Piezo was that I participated in the Yahoo digital b&w forum for quite a few years (I've been doing color lately so haven't visited in the last year or so). That group seemed to be about evenly divided between MIS users and Piezo users so I figured there must not be the kind of quality difference your friends experienced or everyone in the group would be using Piezo. I don't know anyone who has used both MIS and Piezo extensively. I do have a friend who used a Piezo CIS system for many years, then switched to using K3 inks with QTR when he bought a 3800 and is very happy with both the prints and not having to fool with a CIS system. But he never used MIS inks.

[paulr]

Now you're making me feel bad. : - )

ha! if people start trusting my hearsay over their own experience, i may have to run for office ;)

The complaints I heard about MIS didn't have to do with image quality as much as ink clogs and with difficulty getting profiles to work properly. Piezo is far from perfect in these areas, but seems to have improved steadily over the years.

[Brian Ellis]

ha! if people start trusting my hearsay over their own experience, i may have to run for office ;)

The complaints I heard about MIS didn't have to do with image quality as much as ink clogs and with difficulty getting profiles to work properly. Piezo is far from perfect in these areas, but seems to have improved steadily over the years.

I don't know about ink clogs or profiles. However, MIS definitely has had quality control problems off and on over the years. They don't mix the inks themselves, they farm it out to a company (in China I believe) that is supposed to mix it per MIS specs. But they don't always get it right and when they're wrong you end up with a bad set of inks. One time I kept getting a magenta tint to all my prints and I drove myself crazy trying to figure out the problem. Then I saw a message in the Yahoo digital b&w group to the effect that MIS had shipped some bad inks that were creating a magenta tint. I also used to occasionally get cartridges that didn't fit properly. So if Piezo doesn't have these kinds of problems I certainly can understand using it. The good news is that MIS was very good about sending new cartridges when things went bad, all I had to do was call and tell them the problem, they never even asked for a return of the bad inks.

[D. Bryant]

However, MIS definitely has had quality control problems off and on over the years.

This has been my experience as well and the refillable ink carts suck also, IMO.


So if Piezo doesn't have these kinds of problems I certainly can understand using it.

Cone inks aren't perfect either. I received a defective inkset and had a very difficult time getting Inkjet Mall to replace them.


The good news is that MIS was very good about sending new cartridges when things went bad, all I had to do was call and tell them the problem, they never even asked for a return of the bad inks

This hasn't been my experience at all with MIS. IMO their customer service is really poor. They ship incorrect products, ink and carts, and then give the customer a hard time about returning them.

My 2 cents,

Don Bryant

[Peter von Gaza]

IMHO forget using 3rd party dedicated bw inks. For years I spent a friggin' fortune on various black and white inksets (Cone, MIS, et al.), printers, CFS units. Got tired of fighting clogs. We have 2 epson 4000 printers (used for printing giclees from original paintings) and now I simply use QuadToneRip and Hahnemuhle Pearl paper. The results I get are exceptional. I can't imagine anything better and if there is anything better it wouldn't make any difference to my sales. I use to worry about the color inks degrading the "archivalness" of my BWs, but not anymore. No one cares. No galleries that I have ever sold my work thru have ever asked. No customer has ever asked.

I use MIS funnel carts and their MIS Pro inks. So printing is almost free. Hahnemuhle Fineart Pearl uses the photo-black ink. I work all my prints using cheap epson heavy weight matte paper (Matte-black ink) and then simply switch to pearl paper (photo-black ink) for gallery sales. Having the ability to switch back and forth from matte and photo - black inks without an ink change is beneficial.

Getting a printer that has both matte and photo - black inks is necessity for BW printing (IMHO). So something like a used epson 4000 or a epson 3800 would do the trick. And QuadToneRip as a $50 shareware program is amazing! I like simple.

The Epson 1280 was an amazing printer for it's time. We still use them in our printing shop. Our current pair has been running day-in and day-out for 2 years.


Peter
Yukon, Canada