Recomended 4x5 B&W film

[William Sherman]

I have been away from large format for awhile and want to get back into it. A long time ago I shot Kodak Plus X and loved fine grain. Looking at the photo supply houses it would appear PX is no longer made. What is the modern equivalent? Ilford Delta? I like the slower films. I notice that Tri-X is now rated at 320. How is the grain on this film? Any recommendations or info on B&W film would be appreciated. Thanks.

Bill

[Allen in Montreal]

..... A long time ago I shot Kodak Plus X and loved fine grain...... Ilford Delta? I like the slower films. I notice that Tri-X is now rated at 320. How is the grain on this film? Any recommendations or info on B&W film would be appreciated. Thanks.

Bill

Good morning Bill, and welcome to LFPF (I am a bit of a newbie to the forum too).

I loved Plus-X too, I am down to my last 2 boxes in the freezer.
I am not one to play with a million films, so I can only comment on TXP, I love Tri-x too and when processed in D-76 at 1:1 the grain is pretty good. I have seen many beautiful pictures taken on T-max 100, but I just can't seem to fall in love with that film, Delta either for that matter.

[chilihead]

Fuji Acros 100 - D76

[Allen in Montreal]

Fuji Acros 100 - D76

There seems to be many fans of this emulsion on this board, for those of us who have never tried the film, can you give us a brief description of the film's palette.
Thank you,

[Keith Tapscott.]

I have been away from large format for awhile and want to get back into it. A long time ago I shot Kodak Plus X and loved fine grain. Looking at the photo supply houses it would appear PX is no longer made. What is the modern equivalent? Ilford Delta? I like the slower films. I notice that Tri-X is now rated at 320. How is the grain on this film? Any recommendations or info on B&W film would be appreciated. Thanks.

BillIlford FP4 plus is closer to Plus-X than Delta 100.
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/products/product.asp?n=6&t=Consumer+%26+Professional+Films

[Andrew O'Neill]

Ilford FP4 is closer to Plus X than Acros and Delta 100 according to my own testing.

[MIke Sherck]

Kodak's Tmax-100. I've tried others but keep coming back.

Mike

[Bruce Watson]

I have been away from large format for awhile and want to get back into it. A long time ago I shot Kodak Plus X and loved fine grain. Looking at the photo supply houses it would appear PX is no longer made. What is the modern equivalent? Ilford Delta? I like the slower films. I notice that Tri-X is now rated at 320. How is the grain on this film? Any recommendations or info on B&W film would be appreciated. Thanks.

Bill

Much depends on how you define "awhile" and "A long time ago." The modern t-grain films date back to the early 1980s IIRC.

Just about all the kodak films have been updated within the last four or five years. Tri-X was updated yet again when they moved to the new coating facility for example. I think 100Tmax was too. 400Tmax was updated just last year.

From what I can tell, the Ilford films haven't changed much at all in at least 10 years, probably considerably longer than that.

Fuji's Acros is available in sheets. It's a 100 speed film that has a grain structure somewhere between "traditional" and modern. It's response to light is different from most other films as well, and it has a large following because of these things.

Then there are the old school films from eastern Europe. And the list goes on...

Plus-X is gone in sheets. But if you are starting back, do you really want to start where you were "awhile" back? If so, then Ilford's FP4+ is perhaps your best bet, or maybe the Ekfe 100 speed film.

But before you do that you might want to consider the newer films. They have a lot to offer. King of the hill IMHO right now is 400Tmax, aka TMY-2. The graininess is probably pretty close to what you got from Plus-X 20 years ago, but with at least two more stops of real film speed. Reciprocity performance that Plus-X couldn't even dream of. And it's flat and linear out as far as you can expose. 400Tmax works really well with modern developers like XTOL and Pyrocat-HD, as well as the oldies but goodies like D-76.

Just because you used to use Plus-X doesn't mean you can't change. This from the guy who finally made the switch from 5x4 Tri-X to 400Tmax just this last spring and who's wishing he hadn't wasted so much time on Tri-X. ;)

[Ken Lee]

What Bruce said about TMY. Bruce didn't just give you an anecdotal recommendation, he told you why:

(1) Linear response to light

(2) Linear response to developer time

(3) Excellent reciprocity characteristics, which is really the same as (1)

(4) High speed - like around 200 or 250

You can see some charts which support these statements, when TMY is developed in PyroCat HD, here (http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/PCat/PCat4/pcat4.html).

Note that FP4+ and Acros are also fairly linear. I don't know how well Acros does with reciprocity, but FP4+, being an older formula, is unremarkable.

The one film which seems to have it all, as Bruce has pointed out, is TMY.

If charts are not persuasive, perhaps you would like to see some sample images: Here (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/portraits/index.html?27) is one, and here (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/portraits/index.html?2) is another, although almost all of the images on my site were made with TMY and PyroCat HD. Both are straight prints, with no burning or dodging.

[William Sherman]

Thanks to everyone for the information. It looks like I'm going to have to give Tmax and Pyrocat-HD a try. The examples given are very impressive.

Bill

[Eric Brody]

I'll make a pitch for Acros. It has wonderful reciprocity characteristics, no compensation up to a 2 minute exposure if I remember correctly. In Xtol, it is virtually grainless with very smooth tonalities. It also is available in quickloads, sadly the kodak readyloads are going away.

Good luck.

Eric

[Dirk Rösler]

My current fav is Acros in Rodinal, EI 64-80 and nicely controllable (to my eye) via the Rodinal dilution

[Alex Hawley]

Thanks to everyone for the information. It looks like I'm going to have to give Tmax and Pyrocat-HD a try. The examples given are very impressive.

Bill

Ditto the recommendations for TMY-2 and Pyrocat. Probably the most flexible and capable film/developer combo going, IMO. FP4+ and Pyrocat is another great combo.

[Mark Sloane]

What Bruce said about TMY. Bruce didn't just give you an anecdotal recommendation, he told you why:

(1) Linear response to light

(2) Linear response to developer time

(3) Excellent reciprocity characteristics, which is really the same as (1)

(4) High speed - like around 200 or 250

You can see some charts which support these statements, when TMY is developed in PyroCat HD, here (http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/PCat/PCat4/pcat4.html).

Note that FP4+ and Acros are also fairly linear. I don't know how well Acros does with reciprocity, but FP4+, being an older formula, is unremarkable.

The one film which seems to have it all, as Bruce has pointed out, is TMY.

If charts are not persuasive, perhaps you would like to see some sample images: Here (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/portraits/index.html?27) is one, and here (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/portraits/index.html?2) is another, although almost all of the images on my site were made with TMY and PyroCat HD. Both are straight prints, with no burning or dodging.

Ken,

I looked at your images and i love how sharp they are and how they really "pop" right off the screen. My question is how much does pyro contribute to these great qualities vs using T-Max RS?

[Ken Lee]

It seems to me that popping off the screen is more of an aesthetic issue, which comes from the look of the subject, lighting, etc.

In other words, we're happy to show off our "keepers" to others, but we hide the "duds". :rolleyes:

I presume that one can get very good results with TMY and XTOL. It may be that the only things we get with PyroCat that we can't get with XTOL, are the effects of a staining developer: grain masking, a "compensating" effect with high values, and the ability to print under UV for alternative processes. For me, those are compelling reasons, but they might not be for others - especially if they are already getting what they want with another developer.

What made it easy to choose PyroCat, was all the sensitometry and chemistry done by Sandy King and Patrick Gainer, and the "community" of testers who have given feedback and shared lovely images over the years. In some respects, PyroCat resembles a successful open-source software project.

[gevalia]

Fuji's Acros is available in sheets.

I love Acros but it is just about impossible to get in 4x5 sheet. Most places it has been on backorder for 4 months or longer. You either need to load up the truck or find another film which is what I have done. TMAX 100. Easy to find, predictable results, nice in D76, XTol, and Prescysol EF. My preference would be Acros over TMAX but when a film is that hard to find . . . .

[Joseph O'Neil]

If you like the slower films, FP4 is pretty much bullet proof.

There are better films - for example, I am trying out the new Tmax 400 myself, but for overall ease of use and abuse, in any format, FP4. The only reason I am holding off on reccomending T-Max is it is a "finicky" film IMO. For starting out new or learning all over again, FP4 is a very forgiving film.

joe

[Lenny Eiger]

I wouldn't use TGrained films at all. I don't like them. I'm a big fan of Efke 25. I am currently using D-23 to develop it and getting results I am very happy with.

Very fine grain, slow (a little too slow) but has a traditional feel. If you want to get back to the way things used to be, it will be familiar while more modern film won't.

Lenny

[William Sherman]

Great discussion on all the different films.

Lenny - Forgive my ignorance,but what exactly is Tgrain? Why do you not like it?

Joseph - What do you mean by finicky?

Ken - You are rating TMY at 200 and developing in Pyrocat-HD for how long? At what temp? (I'm looking for a starting point for testing)

Bill

[Lenny Eiger]

Great discussion on all the different films.
Lenny - Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is Tgrain? Why do you not like it?

Bill

TGrained films are the newer films based on grains that are shaped like a T. These are Kodak's TMax, Fuji's Acros and Ilford's Delta.

There are two issues. Unlike the consistent grain of the TGrained films, traditional film had grains of many sizes which can lead to more sensitivity in a specific area - to different amounts of light. This is arguable, and should be taken as opinion and guessing and not a statement of fact. It's one aspect of what I believe is occurring.

The other issue is the shape of the curve in modern film. I started photographing in the 60's and spent many years learning to see in b&w. Those of us that went thru this process prior to the 1990's, when everything changed, often have problems with modern film, as it reproduces the spectrum in a different way. It all looks quite odd (and wrong) to me. I find myself wondering what happened in the development, but the developing is just fine, its clearly the film.

Finally, some of these issues show up differently depending on the way one prints. Enlargers tend to diffuse the light and after all, one is using darkroom paper, which has a specific curve of its own, presumably adjusted to do very well with film. I happen to scan my 8x10 film and then print to a setup with b&w inks. It's a different medium than using a sheet of darkroom paper, or a platinum print, for that matter.

I hope that's helpful.

Lenny

[jnantz]

tmx/tmy are nice films,
if you find yourself using flash/strobe
use tmy, tmx will get blocked up and unfriendly

that said, i still like to use olde expired tri x.

my developer of choice for all 3 of these films is caffenol C and / or ansco 130
.. ( sometimes mixed in with the coffee sometimes by itself )

[Ken Lee]

"You are rating TMY at 200 and developing in Pyrocat-HD for how long? At what temp? (I'm looking for a starting point for testing)"

I suggest that you start with the recommended starting times, which can be found here (http://www.photoformulary.com/uploads/Pyrocat-HD-01-5091.pdf), and perform your own tests. That way, you will be happiest. After all, it's your light meter, your shutter, your water, thermometer, agitation, etc. etc.

[weasel]

A little off track perhaps, but where can I get Acros in 4x5 that is not in quickloads?
Acros in PMK pyro has become my standard in mf, but I can only find it in quickloads for 4x5.

[Neal Wydra]

Dear Weasel,

Try here: http://www.unicircuits.com/shop/index.php?cPath=25&osCsid=7a8b1f778e22f48185028d9db28d3d1d

Neal Wydra

[gevalia]

A little off track perhaps, but where can I get Acros in 4x5 that is not in quickloads?
Acros in PMK pyro has become my standard in mf, but I can only find it in quickloads for 4x5.

I got a few boxes 6 months ago from MPEX. They seem to be out of stock everywhere in the US. Sure, you can pay $36 a box (unicircuits) but the last few boxes I bought I paid $23 for so that price is insulting to me. I've been told a few times by MPEX that shipments were coming in only to find out yet again that they were postponed. Either Fuji is force-feeding us QuickLoads or they want to kill the Acros sheet film line.

[Ken Lee]

"Those of us that went thru this process prior to the 1990's, when everything changed, often have problems with modern film, as it reproduces the spectrum in a different way. It all looks quite odd (and wrong) to me".

Here are the spectral response curves for TMY from Kodak, and HP4+ from Ilford.

They are different. As Kodak says, TMY is more sensitive to the warm tones, and renders blue as a bit darker. The Ilford film of the same speed, an older formula, is a bit opposite in this regard.

Having gotten used to the old look, one wonders if what you got used to, was "right" or "wrong" ;)


http://www.kenleegallery.com/images/forum/specI.jpg
Ilford HP4+
from http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2007321132461251.pdf

http://www.kenleegallery.com/images/forum/specK.jpg
Kodak TMY
from http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f4016/f4016.pdf (http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f4016/f4016.pdf)

[Charlie Strack]

Badger Graphic has a "limited supply" of Acros in 4x5 sheets, not Quickload according to their web site: www.badgergraphic.com. They also have the lowest price I've found for Quickloads.