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SadChi
19-Sep-2008, 08:59
Hello,

Is there any modern lens with shutter that has similar to old lenses RR, Aplanat, petzval picture (not so contrasty, good bokeh)?

Thanks.

Mark Sawyer
19-Sep-2008, 09:53
If you're using the lens stopped down and working in b/w, there won't be too much difference between a Petzval, aplanat, or rr and a modern lens. Maybe a little bit in contrast due to the coatings, but all will be pretty sharp.

The Petzval will have a look all its own at wider apertures, (curved field, soft corners, maybe some swirl sometimes), and no modern lens will give that look. Rapid Rectilinears and Aplanats (pretty much the same lens) will again look not that different from a modern lens.

The petzval will have its own pronounced bokeh. The RR/Aplanats I'm not so sure about...

Peter K
19-Sep-2008, 10:23
Congo makes a soft-focus lens in two focal-lenghts, 150mm and 200 mm.
http://www.cosmonet.org/congo/index_e.html

Daniel_Buck
19-Sep-2008, 10:44
I bet a small company could make some good money, making modern petzval lenses for a variety of formats (from 35mm, all the way up to big LF cameras). I mean, the petzvals aren't really that precise to make, are they? certainly not as precise as modern lenses, I would guess.

when I get time, I'm going to try and make one for a 35mm camera

Gordon Moat
19-Sep-2008, 10:47
Lens Babies

Daniel_Buck
19-Sep-2008, 10:57
lens babies tend to smear the image, more than anything else, from the images I've seen. Just like using a single element lens.

Dan Fromm
19-Sep-2008, 12:06
I bet a small company could make some good money, making modern petzval lenses for a variety of formats (from 35mm, all the way up to big LF cameras). I mean, the petzvals aren't really that precise to make, are they? certainly not as precise as modern lenses, I would guess.

when I get time, I'm going to try and make one for a 35mm cameraUm, Daniel, those old Petzvals were designed and made as carefully as modern lenses are. No one, except perhaps the clowns who make and sell LensBabies, has set out to make a bad lens. Many makers have made lenses to prices, which is very different from making bad lenses.

There are modern -- or relatively modern -- Petzval types, and I'm surprised that none of the people here who want the awful effects they give when abused has mentioned trying them. Projection lenses. The lenses used in overhead projectors have lotsa coverage too, but as I understand it getting the nauseating swirly bokeh requires using a lens on a format it won't cover.

SadChi, the old-timey effect is due to exposure, the emulsion and paper used, exposure again in printing and sometimes even aging of poorly-fixed prints. I have some pre-WWI lenses that shoot just fine on modern films.

Cheers,

Dan

SadChi
19-Sep-2008, 12:13
SadChi, the old-timey effect is due to exposure, the emulsion and paper used, exposure again in printing and sometimes even aging of poorly-fixed prints. I have some pre-WWI lenses that shoot just fine on modern films.

Cheers,

Dan

Dan,

So one old lens does not make old photo look. Somehow old ambrotypes are very attractive, but the process is too troublesome. I' interested how will sinaron-s work on a wet plate.

Thanks to all, yours answers are precious.

wfwhitaker
19-Sep-2008, 12:54
Ambrotypes are too much trouble, but you want to do wet plate? I don't understand.

If you want the look of an old lens, use an old lens. And Dan's point is valid. The lens is but one link in the chain contributing to the look of a vintage print.

Mark Sawyer
19-Sep-2008, 12:59
If you want the look of an old lens, use an old lens. And Dan's point is valid. The lens is but one link in the chain contributing to the look of a vintage print.

Agreed, but there is also the look of certain vintage lenses on modern materials that can be quite lovely.

SadChi
19-Sep-2008, 13:19
Ambrotypes are too much trouble, but you want to do wet plate? I don't understand.

If you want the look of an old lens, use an old lens. And Dan's point is valid. The lens is but one link in the chain contributing to the look of a vintage print.

I like how the wet plate looks (definitely vintage look). Is there any method to print from a ordinary negative a print that resembles a wet plate?

goamules
19-Sep-2008, 13:27
I do exclusively wetplate on tin. I've used modern lenses, like velostigmats. I've used older ones like RRs. The look is the same. The collodion process does certain things with contrast, has flaws, and has a tone that often makes it look the way it does. At least a positive on tin, I haven't done negatives.

On lens effects, I think there is a definate look to many old lens designs. Look at a lot of Jim Galli's posts here. They all look different, and that's the drive.

You could try taking some shots wide open, then doing an old type of print process, like albumen. That would look "old".

goamules
19-Sep-2008, 13:36
Here are some lens examples. In order; weplate with rapid rectilinear, wetplate with B&L tessar, polaroid with velostigmat IV.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3187/2854791292_b12b4cddbc.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1376/1489550679_11a384f790.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1200/1176786524_844370cb24.jpg

SadChi
19-Sep-2008, 14:42
Here are some lens examples. In order; weplate with rapid rectilinear, wetplate with B&L tessar, polaroid with velostigmat IV.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3187/2854791292_b12b4cddbc.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1376/1489550679_11a384f790.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1200/1176786524_844370cb24.jpg

Thanks for sharing.

Paul Fitzgerald
19-Sep-2008, 19:41
SadChi,

"Is there any modern lens with shutter that has similar to old lenses RR, Aplanat, petzval picture (not so contrasty, good bokeh)? "

you could take any tessar type lens and have the edge-black paint removed from all of the elements, the scatter light will lower the contrast.

Most of the old-look photo possesses are blue-sensitive only which changes the look of everything more than the lenses will.

Jan Pedersen
19-Sep-2008, 20:16
One lens that would replicate an old RR or Aplanat well would be the Xenar 4.5 uncoated, very sharp in the center but slightly soft in the corners if used for the right format. A Tessar as Paul pointed out.

IanG
19-Sep-2008, 22:27
Have to agree about the Tessar, the pre-WWII versions are quite soft at the edges/corners until stopped down well past f11, their optimum sharpness is f22.

Ian

Petzval Paul
20-Sep-2008, 06:42
The tessar is a great, affordable lens easily available, but my ancient Rolleicord has an f/3.5 Triotar that takes awesome pics. I like it much more than the 4 element tessar, what to speak of the 5 element models. It's got that funky, old-time look that I appreciate, especially wide open. Soft corners, funky bokeh, etc. make for a nice look, especially toned in sepia on FB paper, for example. I will attach a casual portrait of my mother shot at f/4.5 and a cyanotype that was shot at f/5.6 where it's pretty sharp in the center.

Maybe some kind of three element lens is available for LF? I know nothing of modern lenses so I can't offer any advice with those. I know that Dallmeyer made a great three-element lens back in the 19th century... but that one required a "Jim Galli" shutter:)

Why use a moden lens if you want a vintage look? I am sure that many 20th century lenses are available in shutters that will get the job done. If you think about it, shutters have been around for a long time. They will need a CLA, of course. Best of luck with your search and let us know what you decide to pick up!


- Paul

Petzval Paul
20-Sep-2008, 08:15
Forgot to add... I have used more-or-less modern lenses with wetplate and the images still look vintage. It's more about the process than the lens used. With film, you are always at a disadvantage for a very antiqued look but you can use toning or alternative processes to overcome that. An older lens would still be a great help, of course.

- Paul

Gene McCluney
21-Sep-2008, 00:15
One of the KEY factors in getting the "old" look to photographs is to consider the color response of the film. Most modern films are panchromatic (sensitive to all colors of light), and a few are Orthochromatic (sensitive to blue and green). Wet Plate, Ambrotypes and Tintypes are sensitive to Blue only. To achieve this spectral response with modern Panchromatic films you need to shoot thru a blue filter to block the green and red areas of the color spectrum.

Paul Fitzgerald
21-Sep-2008, 07:42
Hi all,

you could always try aero duplicating film, it's blue sensitive only and no anti-halation backing for glowing highlights. Virtually grainless and really slow, about ASA 1, so a hat-trick shutter is no problem. Definite 'old time' look to it.

Carsten Wolff
21-Sep-2008, 19:13
SadChi,
E.g. Dan Fromm's first reply hits the nail on the head. The consumables and processes are your key, not so much the optics themselves(although rounder apertures and uncoated lenses MAY also "assist"). Film format choice (!) also becomes relevant in many ways: Look e.g. at Jim Galli's page for some inspiration; not only if out-of-focus work is your thing ;) .
It's hard to judge what exact "vintage" look you're after. Along Paul's above comment: If you 're happy to experiment, you can also try to get hold of (no longer made and VERY slow (~5-6ASA for halftones)) Kodalith Ortho, Type 3 Film (I think Ilford still makes Ortho-film though) and as a starting-point develop in Rodinal at 1:100 for, say, 10 minutes. You'll find many other formulae on the web.
All the best!

SadChi
21-Sep-2008, 21:56
Thanks to all. Now i have a lot of food for my mind and for experiments.

Daniel_Buck
21-Sep-2008, 22:02
Um, Daniel, those old Petzvals were designed and made as carefully as modern lenses are. No one, except perhaps the clowns who make and sell LensBabies, has set out to make a bad lens. Many makers have made lenses to prices, which is very different from making bad lenses.

There are modern -- or relatively modern -- Petzval types, and I'm surprised that none of the people here who want the awful effects they give when abused has mentioned trying them. Projection lenses. The lenses used in overhead projectors have lotsa coverage too, but as I understand it getting the nauseating swirly bokeh requires using a lens on a format it won't cover.

ah, sorry. I thought I ready somewhere that the petzval type lenses were not as critical (for the spacing of the elements) as more modern designs are.

My favorite Petzval so far is a projection lens :) I don't know how old it is though. The 'real' petzval protrait lenses are too expensive for me.


I've been playing with individual (and double) lens elements when I have free time, this was one of my better results here, I think with the right subject and a blue gel over the lens, it would have an old portrait feel :)

http://404photography.net/wip/4x5/lens_fun_05.jpg

http://404photography.net/wip/4x5/lens_fun_06.jpg

SadChi
21-Sep-2008, 22:06
ah, sorry. I thought I ready somewhere that the petzval type lenses were not as critical (for the spacing of the elements) as more modern designs are.

My favorite Petzval so far is a projection lens :) I don't know how old it is though. The 'real' petzval protrait lenses are too expensive for me :)


I've been playing with individual (and double) lens elements when I have free time, this was one of my better results:

http://404photography.net/wip/4x5/lens_fun_05.jpg

http://404photography.net/wip/4x5/lens_fun_06.jpg

Nice picture indeed.

DELTAFOUR1212
10-Jan-2012, 05:33
I was wondering if there is a lens filter that can block certain light waves that can replicate Wetplate?

E. von Hoegh
10-Jan-2012, 08:06
Hello,

Is there any modern lens with shutter that has similar to old lenses RR, Aplanat, petzval picture (not so contrasty, good bokeh)?

Thanks.

No.
But if you get an uncoated Dagor, you can use it wide open. The uncorrected spherical abberation wide open might get you the look you want. If you want sharp, stop it down, correct for the focus shift, and you'll be able to shave with the images.

Two23
11-Jan-2012, 21:39
I had a small E&HT Anthony mounted in a Copal 1 with a machined adapter. It's great! Not expensive either.


Kent in SD

Gene McCluney
11-Jan-2012, 22:14
I was wondering if there is a lens filter that can block certain light waves that can replicate Wetplate?

A blue filter will help give you the same spectral results of Wetplate, which can assist you in getting a vintage look....or use Blue Sensitive X-ray film.

alex from holland
12-Jan-2012, 08:32
making a good ambrotype is easier than make a decent bariet print...
I have used several petzval lenses and wide open there isn't much difference between a good petzval projection lens and expensive Petzvals.

Alex

Jim Fitzgerald
12-Jan-2012, 08:59
I like how the wet plate looks (definitely vintage look). Is there any method to print from a ordinary negative a print that resembles a wet plate?

I have had some success with my carbon printing changing tones. Do they replicate wet plate? One does have many controls to work with. This image was shot with my Fuji 240A @ F-9. Shot on Efke 25.