Film holders

[Francesco Gallarotti]

Recently, I have did a lot of searching on this forum and read a lot about different kinds of film holders.

I am very interested in those quickload packs that Fuji sells, but I am turned off by the so called "flag effect" caused by the paper cover (in windy conditions could create motion on the camera / film). Also I am really not so fond of their outraging price.

Then I looked at the other extreme: regular film holders. Those look like a pain in the butt on location (which is most likely where I am going to be shooting the most) -- weight, space used and having to handle unloading and reloading in a changing tent.

Then I discovered just today about grafmatic holders, which seem a good compromise (space wise, at least). The one thing I haven't understood is whether there will be some sort of "flag" coming out of the holder when shooting (which could potentially cause a flag effect in windy conditions). The other question I have is whether they are much more complex to load in a changing tent. I am new to all this and have no experience working in a changing tent or in the dark, so I am wondering if, by buying this kind of holders, I would be signing up for way too much to learn and to adapt to.

Any suggestions are very appreciated.
Thanks,

Francesco

[Gene McCluney]

While you are exposing the image with a grafmatic, the darkslide is pulled out, so it "might" serve as a flag. The darkslide is captive, it cannot be completely removed. Yes, a grafmatic is considerably harder to load, I wouldn't want to load one in a changing tent.

I have shot with 4x5 and 5x7 and 8x10 outside for many many years. If the wind is high enough to cause a "flag" effect with a darkslide, then it is too windy to shoot.

[phaedrus]

While you are exposing the image with a grafmatic, the darkslide is pulled out, so it "might" serve as a flag. The darkslide is captive, it cannot be completely removed. Yes, a grafmatic is considerably harder to load, I wouldn't want to load one in a changing tent.

Uhhm, Gene,
I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with that. At least with the three Grafmatic cassettes I'm using, the darkslide is pushed IN when you make an exposure, afterwards you push the chrome nib to the semicircular handle and pull out the inner cassette, thereby transporting the just-exposed septum to the back of the stack. When you push the inner cassette in again, all's light-tight and you can remove the cassette from the back. So there are two states to a Grafmatic cassette: "locked and loaded", indicated by a red dot being visible on the back, and "safe to remove" (the red dot is covered). They are foolproof and very rugged. They must be, because they were what press photographers used in their Graflexes before Rolleiflexes, Leicas and Nikons became the vogue.
True, they are a bit tricky to open, but when you half pull the inner cassette and then push open the darkslide with two thumbs on it, it works every time!

HTH!
Christoph

[Gene McCluney]

Uhhm, Gene,
I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with that. At least with the three Grafmatic cassettes I'm using, the darkslide is pushed IN when you make an exposure,
HTH!
Christoph


Yes your right, I apologize, not enough coffee when I wrote my post. but I still stand by my opinion that if the wind is high enough to create a "flag" effect with a darkslide, it is probably too windy to shoot....unless you can use a high shutter speed.

[Francesco Gallarotti]

Yes your right, I apologize, not enough coffee when I wrote my post. but I still stand by my opinion that if the wind is high enough to create a "flag" effect with a darkslide, it is probably too windy to shoot....unless you can use a high shutter speed.

When I was referring to a "flag effect" I was talking about the paper "envelope" that is used in the quickloads to uncover the sheet AFTER the darkslide has already been completely remove. Being made of paper and physically attached to the sheet it easily bend and flaps in the wind causing the film to slightly bend or vibrate inside.

I had never seen a grafmatic in real so I have no idea how it is built, so I assumed that it worked in a similar fashion of the quickload, but looks like I was wrong. Thanks for the information to both of you!

[Alan Davenport]

Nothing sticks out of a Grafmatic when you shoot. However, Grafmatics are quite thick, and some spring back cameras might not be happy with that much holder stuffed into the back.

My own experience with Grafmatics is that they are kinda heavy and unwieldy. Due to the weight, if you have a spring back camera the weight of the GM can tend to open up a gap (= light leak) if the camera's springs are weak. Not a problem if you have a graflock back (and the GM is graflock style.)

Francesco: ask yourself, how many exposures you realistically expect to make at a given time? For myself, 10 exposures is a really big day; 6 or 7 is more the norm, and that's only 3 or 4 regular film holders. Plus, if I shoot less than 6, I don't have to unload the Grafmatic and figure out which septums have been exposed and which are still blank.

[Tony Karnezis]

Francesco, I use quickloads here on the windy California coast. I just gently hold the quickload envelope during windy exposures to prevent the flag effect. This way the envelope ends up being relatively stationary relative to the rest of the camera. Seems to work fine for me.

[Francesco Gallarotti]

Francesco: ask yourself, how many exposures you realistically expect to make at a given time? For myself, 10 exposures is a really big day; 6 or 7 is more the norm, and that's only 3 or 4 regular film holders. Plus, if I shoot less than 6, I don't have to unload the Grafmatic and figure out which septums have been exposed and which are still blank.

That's quite a good point there... I can't answer right now. I am pretty new to film photography and I haven't even received my first LF camera yet. When I go out with my Hasselblad I usually end up shooting two-three rolls per day (that's about 36 exposures). I could probably shoot less but that's just because I still have an "easy index finger" coming from the world of DSLRs.

I guess you are right. With the complexity of shooting 4x5 I won't be taking many shots, and having 5 holders in the bag should be plenty.

Cool, so you have solved one of my "problems". I'll go with regular film holders and buy 5 of them to begin. I think it should be enough. And I will also get the Photoflex Film Changing Room (25 x 22 x 15"), which I will need also to unload the films and put them in the 4x5 reels for development.

Hopefully dust will not become too much of an issue.


Francesco, I use quickloads here on the windy California coast. I just gently hold the quickload envelope during windy exposures to prevent the flag effect. This way the envelope ends up being relatively stationary relative to the rest of the camera. Seems to work fine for me.

Makes sense. I guess I will probably use quickloads only when I'll go abroad. Unless I can find a way to develop films there (local lab).

[Gordon Moat]

When I was referring to a "flag effect" I was talking about the paper "envelope" that is used in the quickloads to uncover the sheet AFTER the darkslide has already been completely remove. Being made of paper and physically attached to the sheet it easily bend and flaps in the wind causing the film to slightly bend or vibrate inside.
. . . . .



Absolutely not an issue. I have extensively used Quickload (and Kodak Readyload) film under extremely windy conditions. I have watched the paper packet flap and vibrate in the breeze, and seen NO effects on the final piece of film. While it might seem that there could be a problem, it simply does not happen in practice.

There is a pressure plate holding the film in a Fuji Quickload holder. That pressure plate is what keeps the film from bowing. If you used Quickload (or Readyload) film in a Polaroid 545 holder, then there is no pressure plate. Since I have not tried packet films in a Polaroid 545 holder, I do not know if this issue of film flatness is a problem. My suggestion is to use the proper film holder for the proper system.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat Photography (http://www.gordonmoat.com)

[Robert Ley]

I just did a search on the forum for "flag effect" and the only post was today's. I tend to agree with Gene in that if the wind is that strong that it is blowing the paper cover of the Quickload then your camera bellows is probably acting as a sail and goodbye camera ;)

In any event I don't think that this quickload "flag effect" will be a practical problem in the field.

As to Grafmatics, I have six and use them on a regular basis and I think that I can load a Grafmatic with 6 sheets of film faster than I can load three film holders. Changing bags in the field are a hard proposition and I would look into a good changing tent.

I don't know how experienced you are with lf, but I have found that I take many fewer exposures with 4x5 than I do with medium format. you may find that 15 or 20 holders may be enough for you in the field and you can find a more convenient spot to reload.
20 holders and a couple of Grafmatics and a couple of boxes of quickloads may be all you will need at any one time. I have found that reloading in the field with a tent is a royal PITA.

[Nathan Potter]

The flag effect is not a problem with Quickloads as Tony and Gordon have mentioned. To be safe I use a finger to touch and depress the loose end of the extracted sleeve to put a mild force on the end. Depressing the end a couple of inches avoids any flapping in all but a moderate wind (above 10 MPH say). With any wind bellows and tripod motion will more often trip you up especially at slow shutter speeds. BTW if the wind is steady there is less problem with bellows and tripod vibration but the thing to watch out for is vibration mechanical resonances in the camera, bellows and tripod and how that displacement is differentially transmitted to the lens/film plane. There is much discussion here in posts about how we deal with this.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[Gene McCluney]

I have photographed outside in quite windy positions with my 5x7. On a sturdy tripod, clamped down well, and a reasonably fast shutter speed, say 1/15 or above, I haven't noticed any camera related unsharpness, although three limbs appear blurry in my shots due to wind...fortunately I am shooting bridges which are relatively steady.

[Francesco Gallarotti]

I just did a search on the forum for "flag effect" and the only post was today's.

Well, I am sure someone was complaining about it either here, on APUG, Flickr or Photo.net forums since I have read about it between yesterday and today.
I trust all of you on this not being a major issue.

Also, because my experience in LF is zero, I decided, for now, to limit myself to use regular film holders. I am sure I won't be able to shoot much on a single photography outing, so 5-6 holders should be plenty.

Thank you all for your help and again let me apologize for asking noobie questions...

[Brian Ellis]

I've often used Readyloads in windy conditions and never had a problem. But if seeing the envelope blowing around in the wind bothers you, you can always hold it with your hand to keep it still (more or less).

[Len Eselson]

Grafmatics have the advantage of saving space, but not weight.
They also do a better job of holding the film flat than conventional
holders. If you decide to go with them remember that if you
are going to load them in a changing tent to get one that is
large enough so that you can extend both the dark slide and the
septum magazine (or whatever it is called). With both extended
you will need around 20 inches of clearance to the side.

Another aspect to consider is that grafmatics are equiped with
a counter that gets imprinted on your negative. A good idea
as far as keeping track of your shots, but it does impinge on
your image space. The counters can be removed with a bit
of dissasembly, or more easily just cut out.

When buying them make sure that the septums are all flat. There
are instructions at
http://graflex.org/speed-graphic/grafmatic/
Make sure you read them before messing with the holder. It is
easy to bend the septums, and hard to find replacements.

Len Eselson