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Michael Mutmansky
8-Aug-2008, 13:09
Greetings folks,

I'm finally looking to set up a new workstation for PS work with hi-res images. The last thing I want to do these days is waste the time trying to do research on good quality monitors for a dual monitor setup, so i figured I'd short-circuit that step by asking the group for recommendations...

I have a new Mac Pro here, and want to do a dual monitor arrangement with it. I was thinking of a pair of 20 inch monitirs, but size is somewhat flexible. I don't want to spend the money on two Cinema displays, and at this point, I'm not convinced there is any real benefit to them anymore.

Can anyone make a specific recommendation of fairly inexpensive monitors that will calibrate well, have good color and are suitable for this application?

Thanks,

---Michael

Joanna Carter
8-Aug-2008, 13:19
I am using Samsung 24" widescreen, I gather that most Apple displays use their panels so I reasoned, why pay Apple's prices for the same panels?

Joanna

Walter Calahan
8-Aug-2008, 14:22
I'm using two Dell 24" widescreen displays with my Apple MacPro 8-core.

One is horizontal for the image, and the other vertical for all the tools. They are cheaper than the Apple 23" screens.

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/Monitors/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04&sku=320-6272

Darren Kruger
8-Aug-2008, 14:24
I recently purchased a new Samsung 24" LCD (245BW i think) for home and really like it. I'm only running one monitor but it is a whole lot larger than my old 17" CRT.

I read several reviews on amazon on various monitors before deciding on the Samsung. Part of the reason I choose this model was the fact it had an adjustable height stand. My LCD only has a 160° viewing angle; I didn't feel that going to the higher model with 178° was worth the extra $200.

I also just received a 22" Samsung (226CW) from Costco for my day job. It looks nice so far and the new price was around what other dealers on the net were advertising for refurbished/recertified versions of this model.

-Darren

bob carnie
8-Aug-2008, 14:50
Hi Micheal

I use two monitors, but the second monitor is basically for tools, info palettes and such and therefore any monitor will do.
I am now considering three monitors, one Eizo or Nec large screen for editing, apple 20 inch for lightroom , and a third lesser monitor for tools.
Two monitors work amazing for me and would never go back to single monitor. Now I just have to try a tablet over the mouse.

DuncanD
8-Aug-2008, 15:05
I've been using three-four-two monitors, all 21" +, for over fifteen years. I can't imagine going back. Right now I have a pair of 24" LG Flatron which I got quite inexpensively from Best Buy. These are not fine arts graphic displays and I don't do PhotoShop on them, but I am very happy with the space at dual 1900x1200.

Kuzano
8-Aug-2008, 15:25
Perhaps someone with multiple monitor setups can tell us about the issue of color calibrating color monitors when there are more than one.

A friend just had a person who does color calibration in to calibrate his monitors (2). The person doing the calibration could only calibrate one monitor. He said it was because my friend used a twin-head graphics card (two ports on one card with one graphics chip). Even though the card was a high end 512mb card, only one calibration would work.

The consultant indicated that each monitor should have it's own card and driver.

Any thoughts or suggestions here. My friend paints his art from viewing the artwork on the monitor, but the monitor on his desk does not portray identical colors. It's a bit of an issue, and the consultant also said he needs to buy the equipment to calibrate because an LCD display only holds calibration for about a week as oppose to 3-4 weeks on a CRT.

Ken Lee
8-Aug-2008, 15:29
Macs provide native support for individual profiles for each monitor. This is even true on Mac laptops which allow for an external monitor. it's not an after-thought, but built-in from the ground up.

Apple is the first choice for graphic arts and imaging professionals, not because they run spreadsheets and pie charts cheaply, but because they are designed by imaging professionals, for imaging professionals.

I recommend that for any questions about monitor calibration, you contact Chromix (http://www2.chromix.com/index.cxsa). They are very helpful and know as much as anyone.

Jeffrey Sipress
8-Aug-2008, 16:10
With my MacPro, I'm using a Apple 23" Cinema Display next to a LaCie 321.

erie patsellis
8-Aug-2008, 17:01
Kuzano, it depends on the card, from what I'm told. Some do, some don't. There is a applet downloadable from Microsoft that allows you to assign different color profiles to each monitor

Ken Lee
8-Aug-2008, 18:47
I tried that applet on XP and found it not to work.

Marko
8-Aug-2008, 19:36
With my MacPro, I'm using a Apple 23" Cinema Display next to a LaCie 321.

I'll second that. And throw an Eizo in the mix as well.

Michael, your photography is top-notch, you seem to have picked all the right tools for it too, down to the Mac Pro, why would you want to diminish all that by skimping on the monitor?

If you buy cheap, you'll cry many times, but only once when you buy expensive. :)

Michael Mutmansky
8-Aug-2008, 20:08
Well OK, I might be able to be talked into a single good monitor to go along with a NEC LCD1980sxi (essentially a LaCie without the blue case) that I have been using in my current system. But what is a 'good monitor'? I've heard some good feedback on the Cinema displays, and I've also heard some disparaging remarks as well. So, it would pain me to spend $800 on a monitor that is only marginally better than a $250 monitor.

Let me say that I think the monitors have gotten so much better in the past year or so, such that the gap has really closed on the budget displays compared to the high-end displays. That's why I was thinking that I might be able to get away with a less expensive monitor now.

---Michael

jetcode
8-Aug-2008, 20:25
I am using a Gateway 24" and I believe the Gateway and Dell are Samsungs under the hood. A much higher color gamut than traditional LCD displays but not necessarily an Eizo. I find that mine works quite well but given a solid color such as gray you will find horizontal lines throughout the display. This may be due to the scan frequency but to be honest it matters little when content is being displayed.

Sheldon N
8-Aug-2008, 20:34
Check out this thread, a very good resource. About half way down the first page, look at the "Multimedia" and "Print Target..." sections. Also consider one larger monitor versus 2 smaller displays.

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=31&threadid=2049206

Basically the NEC's reign supreme, then the cheaper H-IPS panels (Planar, soon to be released DoubleSight DS-265W, then smaller displays starting with the Dell 2408.

Personally, I just bought a Dell 2408.

neil poulsen
8-Aug-2008, 23:39
I really got into some monitors just over a year or so ago, and here's a summary of what I learned at that time.

Forget anything Apple, including the Apple Cinema. They're more sizzle than steak. They're meant to be run at about 140 cd/m^2, which is high. For example, I've profiled a few Imacs, and about the minimum intensity I've been able to achieve was over 120 cd/m^2. (I don't like going over 100 cd/m^2, depending on room brightness.) And, I believe they have an 8-bit gamma correction and an 8-bit lookup table. I tried to check this out at the Apple store, but they were clueless. Anyway, I spoke with color management people who were really in the know about monitors, and they gave Apple the thumbs down.

The one that stood out to me was the LaCie 526. According to the LaCie people, it could reproduce about 95% of the Adobe RGB '98 color space, which is good. It also has a 12-bit gamma correction and a 16-bit lookup table. This is darn decent and makes a difference when one calibrates the monitor. It runs just over $1600. For a couple hundred more, you can get their packaged colorimeter and software. A year or so ago, if you already had an X-Rite Display 2, you wouldn't need the add-on product. The LaCie colorimeter was a repackaged Display 2, and the software came with the monitor anyway. (Check this out for recent data.) I went through a cycle of calibrating a LaCie with the LaCie software. I thought the software was excellent, worthy of professional use.

If this is a little pricey, consider the LaCie 321. It runs about $999. To get a perspective on how good these are, I was told by an internal LaCie technician that new, the earlier Electron Blue 19" CRT's were just a little better than the 321. As with the 526, the 321 has a 12-bit gamma correction and I think a 16-bit lookup table. (If memory serves. Their website doesn't say. You could give them a call.)

I can't say much about the LaCie 320. It sounds like a replacement for the 321 and 319, neither of which is currently mentioned on the LaCie website. It also costs less than the 321, so this might also be good. The LaCie 324 looks like it's inferior to the other models, with only a 10-bit gamma correction. That would not be my choice. Keep in mind that the LaCie monitors swivel to swap between landscape and portrait orientation. So, you're not limited to the monitor's height with vertical photographs.

Of course, there's always Eizo. They make some excellent monitors, one which approximates Adobe RGB '98. But, they're very expensive.

Based on my knowledge, the only other one that I would consider is the highest end, color critical NEC. But, I'd have to thoroughly check it out, first. There may other good brands capable of color critical work, but I'm most familiar with the above.

Frank Petronio
9-Aug-2008, 06:32
After having so much fun (I am being ironic) with LaCie hard drives I would be hesitant to purchase anything from that company again. Is their warranty service for monitors better than the abysmal quality control and service they have for their hard drives?

bob carnie
9-Aug-2008, 06:51
Currently I am using a Apple 20 screen with a second monitor for tools.

For some reason I am not happy with this screen, hard to describe, seems harsh compared to the last old Lacie I was using.

I am currently considering three monitors to replace the apple and my expertise is really not in monitor appraisal and I cannot seem to find demo's of all three to look at. I was wondering if there are any users of the following monitors who could give me some pros and cons.

Eizo Sx3031 W-Bk
Lacie 526 lcd
Nec 2090

At this point I would like to hear comments on these three units as
all seem to be in the basic price range and all seem to have good ratings and I am pretty sure I would be happy with all but is there any compelling reason to choose any one monitor over the other.
In any given month I am sitting 80-120 hours editing images and this is a critical tool for my work.

Am I splitting hairs trying to decide which one?

Peter De Smidt
9-Aug-2008, 07:20
At work we have a bunch of monitors, Apple Cinemas displays, Imacs, Eizo, Lacies, Sony pro crts, and then some of the cheapest Westinghouses available. The Westinghouse is at one of the print stations, one which I often use. At first I thought "It sucks to be me," but really, it's not that bad. First off, I profiled it which helped a lot. Second, lots of color correction can be done by the numbers. Third, I don't care what monitor you have, to get the best prints you have to make test prints and adjust from there. Color management can only get you in the vicinity of a great print.

Yesterday I added a $130 wide screen Westinghouse to my home setup to go along with my pro Sony CRT. Sure, even after profiling it doesn't match the CRT, but the cheap screen works well for all office tasks, and it's a great Photoshop palette monitor, and I could also do lots of Photoshop on it if I needed to.

I'm not advocating Westinghouse in particular. I'm just suggesting that you consider the law of diminishing returns, especially when concerning a second monitor.

Jeremy Moore
9-Aug-2008, 07:35
After having so much fun (I am being ironic) with LaCie hard drives I would be hesitant to purchase anything from that company again. Is their warranty service for monitors better than the abysmal quality control and service they have for their hard drives?

I don't know, we run about 60 of their external drives at work and we've never had an issue.

Kirk Gittings
9-Aug-2008, 07:47
For me like Bob, the second monitor is just for tools and I don't care about the quality or calibration. I adjust it manually to taste and darken it a bit down so it doesn't compete visually with my image monitor. Michael, do a search on Luminous Landscape. There has been extensive discussion about monitors there over the last couple of years.

Kuzano
9-Aug-2008, 09:51
Kuzano, it depends on the card, from what I'm told. Some do, some don't. There is a applet downloadable from Microsoft that allows you to assign different color profiles to each monitor

Thanks, I will check that applet for a solution.

Lenny Eiger
9-Aug-2008, 12:21
Can anyone make a specific recommendation of fairly inexpensive monitors that will calibrate well, have good color and are suitable for this application?

Thanks,

---Michael

Apple's are great. I use two 23 incher's and I'm very happy. That would be a bit expensive to replicate with Eizo, altho' they are obviously the top of the line. Apple's suffice quite nicely, however. Personally, I wouldn't want to use anything less - they aren't that expensive. They are also nice and crisp, making those long hours easier...

I don't worry at all about profiling them both, as someone else has already stated, one uses only one for the image...

Lenny

JohnnyV
9-Aug-2008, 12:34
Earlier this spring the question was raised about the best "affordable" monitor on Apple's Colorsync list.

The 25.5" NEC LCD2690WUXI-BK-SV was the one recommended. It's about $1300.00, but from what I've read, thinking of getting one myself, it's the best bang for the buck. Instead of buying two $600-$700 monitors that are above average monitors, I'd recommend the NEC 2690 and a cheap 19"-20" tool monitor. Or just use the one NEC 2690 and see if you'd need a second monitor.

John

neil poulsen
9-Aug-2008, 16:52
It's too bad that CRT's are no longer available. I paid $374 for mine, and the LCD that corresponds is upwards of $800! That's progress. I keep it off, except for image work.

Joanna Carter
10-Aug-2008, 01:40
A friend just had a person who does color calibration in to calibrate his monitors (2). The person doing the calibration could only calibrate one monitor. He said it was because my friend used a twin-head graphics card (two ports on one card with one graphics chip). Even though the card was a high end 512mb card, only one calibration would work.
You don't need two cards to profile two monitors, you simply need a quality of twin-port card that ensures that the one card has to separate colour tables. All Macs seem to have this so, no problem there. The cheaper PCs tend to have video cards with two ports but only one colour table. The cheapest option could be just to get a better twin port card.


Any thoughts or suggestions here. My friend paints his art from viewing the artwork on the monitor, but the monitor on his desk does not portray identical colors.
If a monitor is correctly profiled to match the colour temperature of the light in the room, then what you see on the screen should match what you see in the room.

But do bear in mind that what you see on a monitor is a backlit "transparency" and that doesn't have the same qualities as a picture which reflects light.


It's a bit of an issue, and the consultant also said he needs to buy the equipment to calibrate because an LCD display only holds calibration for about a week as oppose to 3-4 weeks on a CRT.
Certainly, it would be more cost-effective to buy something like the Monaco EZColor or Huey systems, so that the monitors can be re-profiled regularly, compared to employing someone to come in and do it for you every couple of weeks. After all, it only takes a matter of minutes to do.

Michael Mutmansky
11-Aug-2008, 11:18
Thanks for the recommendations, folks. I'm looking into the LaCie, NEC, and a few Eizi monitors. It seems the 25.5" NEC and LaCie are a real good performance:cost consideration, especially considerating the color gamut of the two monitors.


---Michael

Greg Miller
11-Aug-2008, 11:41
I also only calibrate my primary monitor. Since the secondary monitor is only used for tools ans other apps that don't require on color accuracy I don't see a need to calibrate that monitor.

Dizzle
11-Aug-2008, 16:14
I've had incredible luck with using Westinghouse's 37w3

I had a dual setup for a good while, but got really tired of bouncing back and forth. As most have mentioned, when working in Photoshop, you're really limited to one screen for the image. Now I find myself peaking into my 22" screen like looking through a bathroom window.

Another plus, it can be delivered to your door for under a grand now.

Kind Regards,

Jamin

Darryl Baird
12-Aug-2008, 21:38
We have Eizo, Apple Studio, Apple Cinema and LaCie LCD in different studio spaces. I use a single EIZO for work at home where I have a small space available. It's a small 17" Flexscan. Next, I have dual Apple Studio monitors on my scanner station and the Lacie LCD on my printer with another Apple Studio (in a dual setup) in my studio. Of these the Apple Studio monitors are the oldest and the cheapest, can be more expensive due to their failure (bulbs) and repair or replacement frequency. I keep them as tool displays rather than repair them. I'm very fond of the Eizo and the LaCie for their detail, brightness, contrast and accuracy. My wife has the Apple Cinema and for less than $600 it is stunning. I have her old Apple Studio with the Lacie... it has a darkish bottom from a failed bulb, but still works for my purposes.

On thing to consider with a dual setup, you can manage with a smaller unit since you are gaining much more screen real estate.

Bang for buck is the Apple, get the Apple Care coverage. You can have two 20" units for less than $1200.

I can buy an Eizo a bit cheaper through (MAC) educational pricing, but the Color Edge monitors are more expensive than my Flexscan, so it would be a hard decision if I had to replace the Eizo right now.