black and white printing services

[Scott Kathe]

Does anyone know of a company that makes good 11x14 black and white inkjet prints from digital files. I've used WCI for color work and I've been very satisfied, they do 12x18" prints for just under $20 but I'm looking to spend less. A local place has an Epson 4000 and charges about $14 for an 11x14 but I'm concerned about color casts. I'd love my own printer but that would be yet another skill I will have to pick up. In the long run it would definitely be worth it but the cost of paper and ink and the fact that I wouldn't be making prints that often in the next year or two count against my own printer.

Scott

[matthew blais]

My local lab has an epson with the cone MIS inkset for B&W.
Don't know the costs, but the owner (Tony) is pretty cool..

In So Cal..
http://www.intellicolorphoto.com/

[Joanna Carter]

Anyone who uses an Epson K3 inkset printer can produce excellent B&W prints with no colour casts. You do not need any special B&W inks. To produce 11x14 prints, an Epson R2400 would be a great investment and would more than likely pay for itself with sufficient throughput.

[Scott Kathe]

Anyone who uses an Epson K3 inkset printer can produce excellent B&W prints with no colour casts. You do not need any special B&W inks. To produce 11x14 prints, an Epson R2400 would be a great investment and would more than likely pay for itself with sufficient throughput.

I have definitely thought about going that route.

One concern is that I wouldn't be using the printer on a daily or even weekly basis so I'm concerned about the nozzles plugging up.

The second concern is that my teenage daughters would want me to make prints for them (or god forbid-make them themselves) and use the printer for their school reports.

And third, one of the girls is a really good soccer player and my wife always ends up in charge of having team prints made. She has them made at CostCo but still doesn't understand why players on the edges are cropped out of a landscape 5x7 print but they are there in the 4x6. On the other hand maybe that's a good pitch to get a nice printer;)

Scott

[Joanna Carter]

I have definitely thought about going that route.

One concern is that I wouldn't be using the printer on a daily or even weekly basis so I'm concerned about the nozzles plugging up.
I have found that, if you do not switch the printer off at all, the nozzles are a lot less likely to clog, taking only one autoclean at the most to get them going after a couple of months without use.

[Scott Kathe]

I have found that, if you do not switch the printer off at all, the nozzles are a lot less likely to clog, taking only one autoclean at the most to get them going after a couple of months without use.

Joanna,

Thanks, that is good to know. I have found the same thing on a cheap little Epson R200 here at work.

Scott

[Lenny Eiger]

Anyone who uses an Epson K3 inkset printer can produce excellent B&W prints with no colour casts. You do not need any special B&W inks. To produce 11x14 prints, an Epson R2400 would be a great investment and would more than likely pay for itself with sufficient throughput.

I would respectfully disagree. There is a huge difference between color prints made by color inks and those made with black and white. I check Scott's site and he has lots of pictures made in the snow. If he wants to hold clean values with detail in the highlights, I would find someone with 6 or 7 dilutions of black and white inks....

There are a lot of printers who could help you. Custom printers tend do be a little expensive. If you find one that will teach you a little along the way you can ultimately get what you want and get trained as well.

Lenny

[sanking]

It appears to me, and Lenny should feel free to correct me if I am wrong, is that implicit in his answer below is a concept that a B&W print from an inkjet printer should be perfectly neutral in color. If that is the kind of aesthetic one wants, fine, but during the entire history of photography artists have used various toners, sometimes for archival purposes and other times to change the color or tone of the print.

In my own work, where I make my own carbon tissues by mixing whatever pigments I want to obtain a certain tone or color, I generally avoid perfectly neutral tones. They sometimes work well with certain subjects, but for the most part I find neutral tones boring. I am personally much more attracted to colors that just off-neutral, or even split toning which can be really beautiful.

Sandy King








If he wants to hold clean values with detail in the highlights, I would find someone with 6 or 7 dilutions of black and white inks....


Lenny

[Lenny Eiger]

It appears to me, and Lenny should feel free to correct me if I am wrong, is that implicit in his answer below is a concept that a B&W print from an inkjet printer should be perfectly neutral in color. If that is the kind of aesthetic one wants, fine, but during the entire history of photography artists have used various toners, sometimes for archival purposes and other times to change the color or tone of the print. Sandy King


I actually like toned prints very much, even cyanotypes, and gravure, definitely. I didn't mean to suggest that color casts were any lesser, unless one doesn't want them - or I suppose in some cases if they can't control them as they like.

It's really the detail I was alluding to. When I reformulated the Piezotone inks from 4 inks to 6, the highlights held detail I didn't even know was there.

My prints aren't neutral at all - my favorite is a Cone "carbon sepia" look - a bit warm. I find it inviting. I do get asked for neutral black and white prints fairly often, however.

Lenny

[Scott Kathe]

OMG please don't look at my website, it's a work in progress, just like my photography;) I should be working on updating the site right now, a lot of it is old 135 stuff and I have a lot of nice large format work to add.

I must admit that I have learned a lot and have a lot more learning to do. I do like snow and I am fascinated by running water so I am working on controlling my highlights through exposure and development. And then there is the next step, the print. I like the thought of a dedicated B&W printer that makes use of the inks developed by Paul Roark and sold by MIS (I have a R220 and do BO prints with the MIS inks but I'm limited to 8x10s and the prints are kind of coarse) or the Cone system inkset. I would rather have someone else do the prints since there is a learning curve there as well. It would be ideal to have control from the beginning of the process to end and I do want to do that eventually. Now, I'm trying to focus on composition, development, scanning and ps work along with keeping at my website. Making prints myself is the next big step.

Scott

[Greg Lockrey]

Lenny would be a good choice for your custom B&W printing. He has the "passion" for it for sure. This is an area not usually profitable for normal color printing houses and very critical B&W clients. There is just too much set up and not enough work to make it viable for everybody in the printing business. Yes, you could go to a K3 printer and get acceptable results, but if you want those images to "pop" you need to go to someone that's set up for it.

[Donald Miller]

OMG please don't look at my website, it's a work in progress, just like my photography;) I should be working on updating the site right now, a lot of it is old 135 stuff and I have a lot of nice large format work to add.

I must admit that I have learned a lot and have a lot more learning to do. I do like snow and I am fascinated by running water so I am working on controlling my highlights through exposure and development. And then there is the next step, the print. I like the thought of a dedicated B&W printer that makes use of the inks developed by Paul Roark and sold by MIS (I have a R220 and do BO prints with the MIS inks but I'm limited to 8x10s and the prints are kind of coarse) or the Cone system inkset. I would rather have someone else do the prints since there is a learning curve there as well. It would be ideal to have control from the beginning of the process to end and I do want to do that eventually. Now, I'm trying to focus on composition, development, scanning and ps work along with keeping at my website. Making prints myself is the next big step.

Scott


I have one of my printers set up to do B W with the inkset that you mention. The other printer is used for color only. I like the results that I get by splitting the output in this way.

[ignatiusjk]

Your digital file should print in B&W the same as color.If I make a color photo just for further info I printed an b&w by turning of the color and the result was fantastic. Try telling your lab to shut off the color on their printer and see what happens.

[Lenny Eiger]

Your digital file should print in B&W the same as color.If I make a color photo just for further info I printed an b&w by turning of the color and the result was fantastic. Try telling your lab to shut off the color on their printer and see what happens.

What printer are you talking about?

Lenny

[Joanna Carter]

I would respectfully disagree. There is a huge difference between color prints made by color inks and those made with black and white. I check Scott's site and he has lots of pictures made in the snow. If he wants to hold clean values with detail in the highlights, I would find someone with 6 or 7 dilutions of black and white inks....

If the Epson R2400 used colour inks to produce B&W prints, then I would agree that you would not get a good quality and what I can gather, Scott uses an old Epson R220 printer which only has one black cartridge, thus he would benefit from a dedicated multi-tone cartridge set.

However, the Epson R2400 has three black inks (K (black), LK (light black) and LLK (light light black). The result gradations simply have to be seen to be believed. You have the choice of printing a neutral B&W image, or you can control tinting with a very sophisticated advanced B&W setting panel.

I have had dedicated darkroom printers compliment my prints as being the match, if not better, to some of the prints they have turned out.

[Tyler Boley]

I'm sorry Joanna, but my experience does not reflect yours with regard to the 2400 and K3 inks. Unless you are using QTR with a curve probably called "warm", there are always color inks present in the mix. Also, that particular setup with only the 3 blacks gives yellowish hue some do not like. If you use the ABW mode in the OEM driiver, there will definitely be color inks present, no questions about it. It's been tested and proven many times. I have attached a 4000ppi scan of 9800 ABW output to show.
I can assure you that high quality quad, K6 or K7 prints will exceed that print quality easily.
I don't mean to suggest that 2400 OEM B&W prints are not good, and sufficient for many workers. I'm glad you are happy with your results.
But there are superior system for those who choose to take things a bit farther.

Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/

[Tyler Boley]

Just as a conversational reference, here is a scan made exactly the same way, from a K7 2880 print from the same file.
Clearly the Epson driver has to throw out photographic information to make a cmyk dot cluster to present a gray. Also, fine gradations are far less convincing, it's dottier, less smooth, less paper coverage, etc.
I happen to have all this handy right now as prep for an article and thought it might be of interest.
Tyler

[JohnnyV]

Hi Tyler,

Very convincing evidence showing the advantages of the K7 inks over Epson's K3 ABW.

Here's another convincing comparison (http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl?c=362672&it=I&id=82&sc=15&category=-115).

With that written... I print with an Epson 4800. Since I've downsized I don't have enough room for a second printer...it pains me seeing the above comparison. But I'm fairly pleased with the 4800 ABW B+W output.

John V.

[Tyler Boley]

Hi John, hope you are good. I've seen many very very nice ABW prints. No way to I want to denigrate them or those printing this way. I just wanted to clarify the information about the presence of C, M, and Y inks (without getting into the pros and cons of that issue) and keep it common knowledge that some workers have very valid reasons for moving into more advanced and dedicated systems. It's no myth. Clearly the OEM solutions have evolved a lot, but the dedicated systems continue to evolve as well.
Things are pretty exciting these days.
Tyler

[Greg Lockrey]

Your digital file should print in B&W the same as color.If I make a color photo just for further info I printed an b&w by turning of the color and the result was fantastic. Try telling your lab to shut off the color on their printer and see what happens.

HUH???

[Ralph Barker]

Another option, perhaps limited to "special" images, would be real silver prints from digital input, as Bob Carnie at Elevator Digital in Toronto (www.elevatordigital.ca) does on his Lambda system, using the Ilford/Harman paper designed for that purpose. He also does traditional optical enlargements, as well, and does excellent work. If I need enlargements from my 8x10 negs, I send them to Bob.

[Joanna Carter]

Very convincing evidence showing the advantages of the K7 inks over Epson's K3 ABW.
The only problem being that, since I also print colour, that would mean buying a second printer, CIS and different papers. Not something I aml prepared to contemplate.

[Greg Lockrey]

The only problem being that, since I also print colour, that would mean buying a second printer, CIS and different papers. Not something I aml prepared to contemplate.

I tend to agree with you on this also. I can count on one hand the number of clients that even require B&W prints from me in a year let alone those who require very high end quality (higher than ABW from a 3800 for example). I run about 200 square feet per day on average in color to give you the scale of my operation. Unless you are in the center of that type of market it's just not worth setting up. It's better to farm it out to those who are.

[Scott Kathe]

I have used both the MIS warm black and white inkset for the R220 and the neutral inkset. I found the warm to be way to warm and I had issues with plugged nozzles with the neutral inkset. Therefor, I've been printing in black only (BO) mode and thought I would control print tone through choice of papers but so far I've only been using one paper and an pretty happy with it. I would like to be able to print 11x14s...

There is no doubt that the ABW mode of the Epson 2400 uses color inks and that may be an archival issue and a tonal graduation issue. It would be nice to have a dedicated color printer and a separate dedicated black and white printer running an RIP with a full black and white inkset. At this stage in my photography learning curve, I'd like to leave the printing to the pros. I was just trying to find out if anyone knew of a vendor that would do black and white prints on a dedicated b&w printer that beat WCI prices. Lenny Eiger was kind enough to step up and offer to help me out but I don't feel that the quality of my work demands a fine art printer of the highest caliber (yet).

I realize that printing is an integral part of photography and I need to learn to do that for myself as well. Then I will be able to 'close the circle' and complete my image from beginning to end-visualization to print.

Scott

[Lenny Eiger]

Lenny Eiger was kind enough to step up and offer to help me out but I don't feel that the quality of my work demands a fine art printer of the highest caliber (yet).Scott

Scott,
Thanks for the kind words. Here's what I will add - and no, its not a plug for my services.

It is important to use the good materials. I remember that when I stepped over from darkroom to platinum. It was a year or so later that I realized I was seeing differently. I noticed the longer tonal range while shooting - and it became part of my aesthetic.

As much as many of us would like to print in a less expensive manner, on cheaper paper, from Costco, etc., I don't find its a good idea for an artist. One's "eye" continues to develop with each shot taken from seeing it to completed print. If we lower the quality of the end of the process, we may not get there at all. Or it may take a lot longer. I would say as you move towards learning the printing, make sure to use the good paper - it will make a big difference.

And I do know its a lot of learning, especially the PhotoShop part. No need to take it on all at once...

Lenny

[Kuzano]

I have definitely thought about going that route.

One concern is that I wouldn't be using the printer on a daily or even weekly basis so I'm concerned about the nozzles plugging up. Scott

In both cases, one or two runs of the clean cycle and no problem. It was one of my concerns, but I now have it classified in the "non-issue" folder.

[Tyler Boley]

The only problem being that, since I also print colour, that would mean buying a second printer, CIS and different papers. Not something I aml prepared to contemplate.

I'd like to again stress that there is no criticism intended of anyone's methods or reasons for their methods. I'd prefer the information about what the various drivers are doing and how they use the K and CMY inks to be correct, and to keep the important issues of pushing print quality alive particularly on forums like this.
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/

[JohnnyV]

Hi John, hope you are good. I've seen many very very nice ABW prints. No way to I want to denigrate them or those printing this way. I just wanted to clarify the information about the presence of C, M, and Y inks (without getting into the pros and cons of that issue) and keep it common knowledge that some workers have very valid reasons for moving into more advanced and dedicated systems. It's no myth. Clearly the OEM solutions have evolved a lot, but the dedicated systems continue to evolve as well.
Things are pretty exciting these days.
Tyler

Hi Tyler,

I understand completely your information posted was to clear the myths with Epson's ABW. There are certain Photoshop/Epson Gurus that will tell us that Epson's ABW uses almost no color inks...which certainly isn't the case as illustrated by your comparison. Too bad Epson K3 inks has such such crappy black inks (green-yellow biased cast) then maybe color inks wouldn't have to be added to neutralize it.

Is there a similar comparison out there for the new HP 3100 printers? I seem to remember HP black inks are fairly neutral.

I've recently come across some old Piezotone prints of mine and compared with the same images printed on Epson Semi-Matte and other 'glossy' media printed via Epson's 4800 ABW. Man-oh-man no comparison...best way to describe it is the Piezotone prints are objects of art and the Epson prints are photographs. Sorry can't explain it any better...as the saying goes "If I could write, I wouldn't have to lug this camera around."

Best,

John

[bob carnie]

I am really hoping I can attend Tylers workshop at Cone editions.

I currently print on Cannon 9000 and Lambda 76.
One is a ink printer and the other wet fibre prints from files.
One aspect I am not hearing here, is exactly where LAB shadow with detail and highlight with detail aim points are and how each area of the curve prints on paper.

When I print on Lambda to wet fibre paper HwD = LAB= 94-96
SwD = LAB = 5-8
When I print on Lambda and Cannon the numbers are significantly different
HwD = LAB = 90 - 95
SwD = LAB = 8-12

HwD , SwD to me means LAB info readings in areas where I want to see detail in the Highlights and Shadows.

I am very curious to see how the piezo inks fare to my current observations.
To me I am always concerned how the tones land between those two points.
When I was only printing wet and not ink I always believed that the ink when landing on paper would spread and not resolve local contrast or micro contrast of an enlarger print or digital wet.
When we got our Cannon we tested same files and to our suprise Harmon Wet, Harmon AR ink , and Iflord MG4 from original film to enlarger, all were very very competitive.
Hopefully I can bring a file to Tylers workshop that will then show me Piezo Inks on different papers and how they compare to what I use daily.

[Tyler Boley]

Hi Tyler,
...
Is there a similar comparison out there for the new HP 3100 printers? I seem to remember HP black inks are fairly neutral....
...the Piezotone prints are objects of art and the Epson prints are photographs....
Best,

John

Well John, I'll leave it to other's to make judgements like that. I think it would be too easy for people to assume I have an agenda...<G>.
I do prefer the mono ink prints.

I do not have a comparison test using the HPs. I have several prints here provided to me by John Dean-
http://deanimaging.com/index.php
- a great printer. So I could scan areas, but they will not be from the same file so less useful. The HP (Matte) quads are the 4 K inks alone in grayscale mode, and are a cooler neutral and pleasing hue, comparable to the Cone Selenium set. Fineness of dot pattern and smoothness are not quite up to a Cone quad, and of course the K7 will excel again.
It's a good solution for a color and B&W printer. But again, there is less demand for B&W, so these printers will always be optimized for color, and ALSO provide B&W.
For my purposes I prefer a printer optimized for B&W.
Before all this digital, we had two completely different darkrooms, sets of materials, chemistry, all that.
Tyler

[z_photo]

This thread has been immensely interesting and informative for me. i just gained possession of an epson 7600 which i can convert to dedicated B&W use. I spent time reading everything i have been able to find on the Cone K7 inks. I am trying to decide just what cartridge set i should purchase. i have mostly decided against sepia and also against selenium. the current decision seems to be between the neutral set or possibly a split tone set. any specific comments about these options will be very interesting to me. since i will not have the luxury of changing inks once the decision is made, i am looking for thoughts on which set seems to be most generally appealing to people who produce (or perhaps more importantly who purchase) B&W prints.

I am also considering one of the upcoming workshops at Cone Editions. I have even considered driving down to the race at Barber Motorsport Park this weekend but i suspect Jon would prefer to concentrate on something other than inks this weekend. :)

[Greg Lockrey]

I am also considering one of the upcoming workshops at Cone Editions. I have even considered driving down to the race at Barber Motorsport Park this weekend but i suspect Jon would prefer to concentrate on something other than inks this weekend. :)

I would do this first before you make any decisions.

[Bruce Watson]

I am also considering one of the upcoming workshops at Cone Editions.

That's what I did years ago. I went to the workshop before buying the inks. Well worth while because then when you get the inks you can hit the ground running. You do know that Tyler Boley is holding a workshop at Cone Editions (http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.362672/sc.16/category.559/.f) this fall don't you? If anyone understands how to make a killer print using Cone's inks, it's Tyler.

[Lenny Eiger]

That's what I did years ago. I went to the workshop before buying the inks. Well worth while because then when you get the inks you can hit the ground running. You do know that Tyler Boley is holding a workshop at Cone Editions (http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.362672/sc.16/category.559/.f) this fall don't you? If anyone understands how to make a killer print using Cone's inks, it's Tyler.

This is a great suggestion, and Tyler is fabulous.

I think the key here is that if you find someone that does this, whether you go to Cone's or visit me for a day, or any number of other experienced printers, you can learn things that it takes years to figure out. Phil Bard showed me how to mount film on a drum many years ago with the words, "let me save you a few hours of time." He was so right! Another printer showed me his basic workflow. I've gone my own way since then, developing my own strategies, but it was a great base to build on. Then there was the fellow to showed me how to use the Wacom tablet - I could go on. Books are great, but there's nothing like getting it from someone who knows...

Lenny