Looking for Jorge Gasteazoro

[hackphotographer]

Hello to all,

This is my first post here. I am hoping to get some help finding out about Jorge Gasteazoro. I am hoping to find out if anyone has spoken to him lately. Perhaps he has gotten sick.

Over a month ago I bought some Hasselblad camera equipment from him through eBay. I paid him the money directly via paypal and I've never received it. I sent him the money on June 19, 2008.

I had read some posts from him here and/or on the APUG forum from back in 2006 where he explained he had cancer so I'm wondering if something bad has happened to him or if anyone here knows him personally who can verify his status.

I am certain that being such a prominent member of these forums he didn't simply steal my money so I wanted to inquire here to see if anyone knows if he's okj or what the problem might be. At this point I have filed a claim with paypal and they ruled in my favor but have been unable to rescue the funds for me.

Again, I'm concerned about his health. Initially, he emailed me but since I paid him I have emailed him many many times and even called his telephone number and have not gotten any response.

I'll be very grateful for any feedback or help on this.

[Brian Ellis]

Jorge dropped out of here about a month ago and said he was giving up photography. If he's sick he hasn't mentioned it here. If you search on his name you'll find posts from him relating to his decision to stop photographing, at least for a while.

[jetcode]

Hack here is Jorge's member page. There is a email address for him there.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/member.php?u=1881

if that doesn't work file a complaint with Ebay and Paypal

[BradS]

Hack,
You don't say where you are located but, Jorge lives in and ships from southern Mexico. He would have shipped anything of value in Mexico's "locked bag" post. This does take extra time...

[jetcode]

Hack,
You don't say where you are located but, Jorge lives in and ships from southern Mexico. He would have shipped anything of value in Mexico's "locked bag" post. This does take extra time...

So does entry through customs. Jorge has a reputation for being generous and forthright.

[hackphotographer]

I did file a claim with Paypal. They gave him 10 days to respond and provide proof of shipment. He never did that. They ruled in my favor but when trying to refund the money to me it was not available so they told me I'm out the money for now. I'm in the U.S. If he had proof of shipment he had the opportunity to give it to paypal but declined. That's what's odd and why I wanted to find out if he might be sick or something.

I've emailed him on many occasions and he did reply to me initially and then after I paid him I never heard from him again.

At this point I've exhausted all efforts to get in touch with him so thought maybe you guys know something about him since he's so well known here.

[Daniel_Buck]

does anyone know what city he's in? If so, you can probably find his phone number if it's listed. I can't imagine there would be a whole lot of people with the last name Gasteazoro

[sanking]

Jorge lives in Queretaro, Mexico. At least he did a year or so ago when I shipped him some equipment.

Sandy King





does anyone know what city he's in? If so, you can probably find his phone number if it's listed. I can't imagine there would be a whole lot of people with the last name Gasteazoro

[SAShruby]

Hack,

First of all, you chose an awfull nick, you didn't use your real name starting this conversation and based on my experience, Jorge is decent guy. So far, I created my picture right now, not favorable to you thus far.

Put aside my view, there are lots of thing they could go wrong i.e., there might be postal address error (happened to me several times).

Keep in mind, he is not gonna do any extra work for you. He will contact you if he gets his gear back. Otherwise, from his point of view, he did what he supposed to do. I can assure you his personality definitely not average but way above.

Btw, do you have a tracking number? If I'd buy Hassy, I get a tracking number then. At least for price you pay, $20 difference is no concern.

[hackphotographer]

Hack,

First of all, you chose an awfull nick, you didn't use your real name starting this conversation and based on my experience, Jorge is decent guy. So far, I created my picture right now, not favorable to you thus far.

I intentionally did not use my name. I don't mind using it but under these circumstances wisdom would dictate that I do not reveal my name at the moment. I will gladly do so in due time. If he has stolen my money there is no wisdom in giving out my name just yet because he also sold several pieces to some other buyers and I don't know if they received their goods either. This way he does not know which buyer has found him out if indeed he has stolen money from multiple buyers. Again, all indications are that he has stolen it but I want to give him the benefit of the doubt and to allow him to defend himself on this public forum if he's still lurking. Someone wrote and said he was on this forum as recently as yesterday so if that's true then why hasn't he come here to defend his name? That's a decent guy? From the posts I've read he doesn't shy away from a good argument so I find it odd that he's not replied to this.


Put aside my view, there are lots of thing they could go wrong i.e., there might be postal address error (happened to me several times).

And he's had every opportunity ( a month ) to clear this up and simply email me or return my calls to let me know that there has been a problem or that he doesn't have any information. To this point he's not provided any information about the shipment other than to say it would be shipped via FedEx.



Keep in mind, he is not gonna do any extra work for you. He will contact you if he gets his gear back. Otherwise, from his point of view, he did what he supposed to do. I can assure you his personality definitely not average but way above.

Not do any extra work for me? He has my money and I have no money and no goods. He's not supposed to "do any extra work?" Is replying to my queries extra work? Is returning my phone calls extra work? As I said...I paid him and I've not heard from him one time since in over a month. Paypal has tried to contact him via email and ruled against him on my claim. That's the definition of having a "way above" average personality?


Btw, do you have a tracking number? If I'd buy Hassy, I get a tracking number then. At least for price you pay, $20 difference is no concern.
He never provided a tracking number. He only said, "It will ship FedEx" and I never heard from him again. I paid plenty of shipping costs to cover Express shipping with full insurance and I've still received nothing but a declaration from paypal that my money is lost to an apparent theft unless he can provide other information to clear up this matter. I hope he does and will be glad to be wrong in the assumption that he's stolen my money.

[David Luttmann]

While I think Jorge can be a jacka$$ a lot of the time, I don't believe for a moment that he's a thief. He'll probably respond here in due course or to your emails.

As I understand it, he's in the process of setting up a business. No doubt he's extremely preoccupied with that right now.

[BrianShaw]

I don't know much about Jorge or anything about the situation you are in... but I found an address and a phone number with about 2 seconds worth of research on VERY public site. Don't know if they are current or not, but if I can do it you should be able to also... without all of the mystery and such. Good luck to you in resolving your situation. I'd be uncomfortable too!

[hackphotographer]

I have all the information for him....that's not the problem. I have his phone number...and have called him. I have his email addresses and have emailed him many many times.

I get no response no matter which method I use.

That's the problem and that's why I've gone public with this here.

He has replied here so often that I thought, surely, he'd come and explain himself but the longer he stays quiet and the longer he avoids me the more clearer it becomes that he's stolen my money.

I don't rejoice in saying it and I hope I'm wrong but at this point I can no longer conclude anything but theft.

Again, I hope I'm wrong.

[Jan Nieuwenhuysen]

I feel this thread is getting out of hand.

Hackphotographer, I respect the fact that you try to establish contact with one of the forum members. I understand from your post that you claim to have a dispute over a transaction with this forum member. Even if everything you say is true (which is impossible for us to verifie) I feel that this forum is not the right place to settle an e-bay claim (assuming there is one). You should use the approriate channels for that. And it certainly is not correct in my opinion to imply that a forum member is a thief. Name calling is among the definite dont's here.
This forum is for the discussion of Large Format photography related topics. Not about unsatisfactory bussiness deals and the ethical merits of other forum members. That has nothing to do with being right or not, it is just not a topic here.

Furthermore I am uncomfortable to see that private information about a members whereabouts are readily disclosed on this forum. OK, fundamental points made... climbing down the fence now.

Hackphotographer, you have asked Jorge to get into contact with you. I think that is perfectly legitimate. If he still visits this forum and wishes to do so then he will, if not then so be it.
Please let it go at that. Thank you.

[hackphotographer]

Thanks Jan. Remember your words when it happens to you one day.

[Brian Ellis]

Hack,

First of all, you chose an awfull nick, you didn't use your real name starting this conversation and based on my experience, Jorge is decent guy. So far, I created my picture right now, not favorable to you thus far.

Put aside my view, there are lots of thing they could go wrong i.e., there might be postal address error (happened to me several times).

Keep in mind, he is not gonna do any extra work for you. He will contact you if he gets his gear back. Otherwise, from his point of view, he did what he supposed to do. I can assure you his personality definitely not average but way above.

Btw, do you have a tracking number? If I'd buy Hassy, I get a tracking number then. At least for price you pay, $20 difference is no concern.

I'm sorry but this is one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read in this forum. Did you see the part of the message in which the OP said that since paying he's tried to contact Jorge by email and by telephone and has received no response to his email messages and his telephone calls haven't been returned? Did you see the part where he said he received responses to emails before he paid but has received none since? What do you mean "do you have a tracking number? If I'd buy Hassy, I get a tracking number then?" The OP is the buyer, not the seller. Buyers don't obtain tracking numbers, sellers do. The only way he can get a tracking number is if Jorge gives him one and so far that hasn't happened. What's "he will contact you if he gets his gear back" suposed to mean? The OP has never received the gear so how can he do anything with respect to it? More importantly, why is he supposed to wait for any communication from Jorge until Jorge "gets his gear back" (assuming, as you do for no reason, that it's been shipped)? You've formed an unfavorable impression of the OP because he used a pseudonym? What's the name he used have to do with anything? Many people here use pseudonyms. What's "keep in mind he's not going to do any extra work for you" supposed to mean? Is responding to email messages or returning a telephone call "extra work" in your view? And why would a "postal address error" prevent someone from responding to email messages or returning a phone call? You say "he did what he was supposed to do?" Wasn't the Hasselblad equipment supposed to be delivered to the buyer? So far and for whatever reason that hasn't happened so what's the basis for your conclusion that "he did what he was supposed to do?"

I have no idea why the situation described by the OP exists and I certainly am not accusing anyone of anything or forming any judgments or opinions based on what we know solely from the OP's message. But your message makes absolutely no sense at all.

[David Luttmann]

As best I can see, Jorge has not been to this site since July 12.

[BrianShaw]

I get no response no matter which method I use.


Have you considered a "vacation" in Mexico? I once had a brother (biological, no less) who was difficult to maintain contact with - and, boy, was he ever surprised when I unexpectedly knocked on his door! :D

[hackphotographer]

Also, I do think this post is relevant Jan when this forum also allows it's members to post "for sale" ads here. It's my understanding that Jorge did post all of the items ( that he sold to me ) for sale on this site before going to eBay with them.

It would seem to me that the owners of the site would want to know if someone here is selling photographic gear to people yet never sending it to them.

[Robert Fisher]

hack, according to the Member's List he visited this board yesterday - same on APUG

[hackphotographer]

Thank you a LOT for this information Robert.

I want to make it perfectly clear that I have not stated emphatically that he is a thief.

I have merely stated that the facts are pointing towards theft.

Reasoning would dictate to me that he is not helping himself if he visited both boards yesterday yet did not respond to this.

Again, I wanted nothing more than to find out that there was a problem and that he would get it cleared up in due time. I'm a very reasonable person and have all the grace in the world for someone...but I either want the gear, the money, or an explanation as to what's going on.

I'll be glad to shake his hand and say, "no problem," anytime if he'll just communicate with me that the gear is on the way or my money is being returned.

[davidb]

FWIW, I will not reveal Hacks name, but can say that I know him and trust him. If he says this happened, it did.

[Ron McElroy]

While I don't know the OP in this post, I too have not recieved a print purchased off APUG acouple of years ago when it was annouced Jorge was battling cancer. As was recently revealed when Jorge posted all his equipment for sale, a number of other people did not recieve prints from that sale either. I contacted him once again after those posts and still haven't reicieved anything. This is from a man that used to scream, piss and moan about Ron Wisner's lack of business acumen!

[David Luttmann]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.......

[SAShruby]

You guys are insane!

Davidb, if you say you know Hack, I know you so it's enough for me.

[Brian Ellis]

While I don't know the OP in this post, I too have not recieved a print purchased off APUG acouple of years ago when it was annouced Jorge was battling cancer. As was recently revealed when Jorge posted all his equipment for sale, a number of other people did not recieve prints from that sale either. I contacted him once again after those posts and still haven't reicieved anything. . . .

Same here. But my correspondence with Jorge wasn't that long ago and with his new business perhaps he's just too busy at the moment. Or possibly he's had a health relapse. I'm certainly willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. If a lot more time passes and still no print I guess I'll just call it a learning experience and let it go at that. But I'm dealing with $200 that was sent as much to help Jorge with his medical expenses as it was for a print so I'm not going to lose any sleep over it or make any accusations. The OP here is likely dealing with a good bit more than $200 so I can understand his concern.

[David A. Goldfarb]

Just for the record, I purchased two prints from Jorge around that time, and I received them.

[davidb]

david,
how many people on APUG lost money for this print sale?

[sanking]

From what I have heard the number may be five or so.

It is important to remember that the print sale was made through APUG, not directly through Jorge, so it is more than likely that there was some lack of communication between Jorge and APUG. I know many people who did in fact receive their print from Jorge, and deliberately not sending the print is not something Jorge would do. I have had several business dealings with him and there were all very professional. I am in the same boat as Brian re: the print sale and am pretty much of like mind in that I sent the money more to help Jorge than to get a print.

Jorge may have had a relapse and may not be able at this point to deal with the issues involved at this time. I don't know that this is or is not the case, but he had a very serious cancer that may not have been cured. Having followed his postings for many years I would say that he is not the type of person who would whine about his situation in public if he were having medical issues. In fact, the first time this came up it was not through him but through one of his friends.

I think the OP should continue to try to contact Jorge but refrain from making accusations of theft until such time as he is sure that is the case. There are several situations which could explain the delay that are IMO more likely than that Jorge just pocketed the money.

Sandy King



david,
how many people on APUG lost money for this print sale?

[davidb]

Fair enough.

But if Jorge can sign onto the LFF, he can certainly forward a tracking number or some sort of explanation to the OP.

[David A. Goldfarb]

david,
how many people on APUG lost money for this print sale?

I wasn't involved in the transactions, but my sense is that Sean lost money on the arrangement. I'm not sure how purchasers are still waiting for prints. Sean hasn't discussed the details with me.

[sanking]

Not necessarily. I often am in places where I am able to momentarily log on to a certain forum but don't have time to access and process my email. Internet service is not nearly so readily available in Mexico when one travels. There have definitely been several times over the past few years when I was not able to deal with email over a period of two or three weeks. The fact that Jorge logged onto the LF forum does not prove that he is aware of the situation of the OP.

Again, I don't know what is going on here but I think Jorge deserves a little more benefit of the doubt than some appear to be willing to give.

Sandy King








Fair enough.

But if Jorge can sign onto the LFF, he can certainly forward a tracking number or some sort of explanation to the OP.

[davidb]

what would Jorge do?

Do you think he would be so kind in this kind of situation, or would he get himself banned from here and APUG for being so impolite?

Hell, you two could not even discuss the zone system in a civil manner.

[Bill_1856]

I don't quite understand about PayPal indicating that there is nothing in the account to reinburse the OP. Isn't their safety guanantee worth anything? Also, shouldn't there be recourse on the Credit Card used for PayPal?

[Tomaas]

Hack,

First of all, you chose an awfull nick, you didn't use your real name starting this conversation and based on my experience, Jorge is decent guy. So far, I created my picture right now, not favorable to you thus far.

Put aside my view, there are lots of thing they could go wrong i.e., there might be postal address error (happened to me several times).

Keep in mind, he is not gonna do any extra work for you. He will contact you if he gets his gear back. Otherwise, from his point of view, he did what he supposed to do. I can assure you his personality definitely not average but way above.

Btw, do you have a tracking number? If I'd buy Hassy, I get a tracking number then. At least for price you pay, $20 difference is no concern.


As Hack has not received the camera equipment, Jorge should either send the merchandise, refund the monies paid, or have the decency to respond to Hack's emails.

Sending the purchaser his tracking number or communicating with him throughout the sale should not be considered extra work as you call it. I can assure you that after-sales service is very important for future sales.

After a sale is made, a member of our management team personally contacts the client with a 3, 6, and 12 month follow-up to make sure things are going smoothly. We don't see this as extra work either. It vould be considered an investment in the future of our company.

Equally, your response to Brian's comments are as ridiculous as your initial posting. With your response and attitude to the OP's posting, I vould diarise to myself never to purchase anything from you.

Tomaas

[Ole Tjugen]

Just for the record, I purchased two prints from Jorge around that time, and I received them.

I purchased one, and received it. it was a beutiful print, but unfortunately it had been damaged in transit. Jorge immediately offered to replace it, and

...

[IanG]

Can I make a rational observation. I'm not saying anything new just putting things into a very, very different perspective:

Jorge is and always has been a well respected photographer, with his own highly defended views. (I'll address the OP at the end).

Before his last aggressive treatment for cancer (not his first if memory serves me right) he was always fast and methodical in dealing with correspondence and print sales, like others I bought from him. But in Mexico he had no medical insurance and a number of people, particularly on APUG, chipped in to help him.

However much of this was flawed, and illogical. People were selling prints all proceeds to Jorge, the buyer made a very decent contribution but the sellers just gave a little time & the minimal cost of making the print but took all the Kudos !!!

And then Jorge himself was offering prints, to be made after his treatment finished, I told Jorge at the time that was going to be a very onerous burden, every person buying a print would be asking Jorge to go into his darkroom at a time he really needed to be relaxing and recuperating.

So did we really help Jorge, personally I think as a whole we didn't.

As a community on this or other forums people need to realise the burden the backlog of orders must have put on Jorge, he needed to be getting out and enjoying life making new images, it looked like that was going to happen but it didn't. I'm not surprised that he's decided to stop making images and has turned away from photography.

OK for the OP - it's right you raise this matter, now Jorge needs time to respond, give him the opportunity to sort things out off forum.

Ian

[John Hannon]

I made a donation to him when he was sick, I hope he is OK...

[Nathan Potter]

Many of the people on this Forum are craftsmen of photographic art or equipment. Typically such individuals are not business oriented and often struggle with such business activities. But I for one will put up with a lot of business inefficiency to willingly make use of their skill and to learn from their photographic technique that is often given so freely on this Forum. These individuals are the purveyers of lost photographic arts and techniques and carry on and preserve a (to me) priceless tradition of excellence. I think Jorge is one of these among us and I have to make allowances for any of his defaults. I hope he is not stricken anew with sickness.

Nate Potter

[Kirk Gittings]

Jorge did visit this site on the 24th. Whether he saw this thread I don't know.

[hackphotographer]

Unfortunately, it is looking worse and worse for Mr.Gasteazoro. I contacted all the other buyers who bought Hasselblad equipment from him all at the same time. So far I have information that 3 people who bought Hasselblad gear from Jorge have never received their goods. I have information that Jorge told a 4th buyer to send him a Western Union payment. The buyer declined and never sent him any money. Good for him.

At this point not one person who bought hasselblad gear from him has received the equipment.

This is unfortunate. I hope Jorge responds soon or someone else finds out what's going on with him.

Also, I talked with a supervisor at Paypal to explain the situation to them yet again and they have declined to refund any of my money a second time around so it looks as though I'm out a signficant amount in this deal with absolutely no recourse.

I'll let my wife and children know. I'm not a wealthy person by any stretch of the imagination.

[jetcode]

Unfortunately, it is looking worse and worse for Mr.Gasteazoro. I contacted all the other buyers who bought Hasselblad equipment from him all at the same time. So far I have information that 3 people who bought Hasselblad gear from Jorge have never received their goods. I have information that Jorge told a 4th buyer to send him a Western Union payment. The buyer declined and never sent him any money. Good for him.

At this point not one person who bought hasselblad gear from him has received the equipment.

This is unfortunate. I hope Jorge responds soon or someone else finds out what's going on with him.

Also, I talked with a supervisor at Paypal to explain the situation to them yet again and they have declined to refund any of my money a second time around so it looks as though I'm out a signficant amount in this deal with absolutely no recourse.

I'll let my wife and children know. I'm not a wealthy person by any stretch of the imagination.

You can file a criminal complaint as a group of buyers and try to get your money back. If he enters the U.S. as a citizen he will be responsible for answering the complaint. I don't know anything about Mexican law.

I would likewise look into Paypal's policies as well. I thought there was some form of coverage for such matters.

[hackphotographer]

Joe,

There is only coverage if you go "through" ebay to pay for the item but, unfortunately, he did not offer paypal as an option through the sale....he only told us we could pay for it through Paypal directly.

When you pay for something through paypal directly and not as part of an eBay listing you're not covered from all that they've told me. I've proceeded to do a "chargeback" because I also have a debit card tied to the account but I doubt seriously that it will be granted because I didn't actually use the card to pay him...I just went directly to paypal and sent the money. I did write the item numbers on the payment when I sent it but Paypal told me it doesn't matter. So here's the lesson for others when buying something on eBay.

If you intend on paying via paypal make very sure that somewhere on the listing it states that you have a certain amount of protection through paypal. Jorge actually wrote this in the description:

"I prefer payment by wire transfer, W U or through www.xoom.com. If you wish to use Pay Pal it can be arranged but let me give you a hint, a certain percentage will be added to the shipping charge."

So he made it known in the description that he would accept paypal but would tack on the fee and you could send it to him directly. However, the atual listing did not offer paypal as a payment option. This is where a buyer can get beaten on a claim....as we have.

So if the listing does not officially state somewhere ( from eBay ) how much buyer protection you are getting then there is none available so don't be deceived. If you're going to pay through paypal apart from any ebay listing then you'll do well to get a debit card tied to your paypal account and pay with the debit card as a credit card so that you at least have the credit card chargeback protection.

I'm guessing, though, in Jorge's case I doubt he would have accepted the credit card number if I had offered it.

I do a LOT.....a LOT of online transactions and have a bunch of experience with paypal so it just shows you that anyone can get "got."

Buyers beware and be wise.

[SAShruby]

As Hack has not received the camera equipment, Jorge should either send the merchandise, refund the monies paid, or have the decency to respond to Hack's emails.

Sending the purchaser his tracking number or communicating with him throughout the sale should not be considered extra work as you call it. I can assure you that after-sales service is very important for future sales.

After a sale is made, a member of our management team personally contacts the client with a 3, 6, and 12 month follow-up to make sure things are going smoothly. We don't see this as extra work either. It vould be considered an investment in the future of our company.

Equally, your response to Brian's comments are as ridiculous as your initial posting. With your response and attitude to the OP's posting, I vould diarise to myself never to purchase anything from you.

Tomaas


LOL. Send my regards to Capochemy. Tell him LOL too. Have a backbone.

[Robert Fisher]

Hack, I am indeed sorry for your situation but perhaps it is just time to move on with your life and enjoy your health and blessings. It is only money. Jorge's problems seem to be monumental at this point. You appear to be a younger man with a wife and children - you have much to be thankful for. Best to you!

[David Luttmann]

It appears Jorge visited the Large Format Forum today at 15:18. Apparently he doesn’t want to reply to this thread. I cannot think of any other reason as the thread is obvious. I feel for the other people as well who haven’t received their gear.

[IanG]

Robert Fisher . . . . Money is relative to many things

We have members here who use their companies Corporate jets and we have students and others so across the board, who are you to say walk away it's only money . . . have you just walked off the companies Lear Jet ?????

Perhaps if you can afford to say that you can also afford to give the OP some money for another Hasselblad system.

Ian

[Robert Fisher]

Ian, do you have a better solution?

Hack can waste his time, energy, more money and his well being attempting to recover his money. It is gone. Period. End of story.

[IanG]

Lets see.

It's very easy to make judgements and be Judge & Jury. This needs to be sorted out offline now.

Hack can hopefully sort his problems out, and if Jorge has problems he need to come to some arrangement with him outside public scrutiny.

It's a bit of a witch hunt.

Ian

[jetcode]

If I sold the same lens 3 times and never shipped it I would expect a witch-hunt.

[David Luttmann]

If I sold the same lens 3 times and never shipped it I would expect a witch-hunt.

My cause for concern is the fact that he visited the site today & didn't comment here at all. He must know full well what is going on.

[Annie M.]

I just can't bring myself to believe that Jorge is a thief... there simply must be another explanation.

[SAShruby]

I just can't bring myself to believe that Jorge is a thief... there simply must be another explanation.

I totally agree with this statement.

[Kirk Gittings]

FWIW

On the 25th I sent him an email at the last address I had for him. It did not bounce back. I asked him if he was alright and telling him that people on the forum were looking for him. He never responded. He has though, visited the forum since.

[hackphotographer]

I'll agree that there is a balance to be had in all of this. I gave considerable thought before posting here about this.

One of the several reasons I did was to help others.

Another reason was to speak out against what is wrong.

Stealing is wrong just like adultery is wrong, murder is wrong, and a plethora of other things are wrong. I don't want any harm to come to Jorge in the least. As I said, I have all the grace in the world for him because I, too, have been given much grace.

Sometimes it's good to keep your mouth shut and move on and sometimes it's good to speak out. I felt this was a time to speak out.

Perhaps he hit a skid in his life and this will be the catalyst that helps him...I don't know. Money is all going to burn up one day so I certainly don't worship or devote my life to money.

My motive wasn't to get on here and to cause anything bad to happen to Jorge but unless people speak out against what is wrong and unless we try to love people into doing what is right then everything will just continue to get worse and worse.

Would I like to have my money back? Certainly. However, at the end of the day people are more important than money and camera gear. I just hope Jorge embraces that ideaology too one day and we'll champion the cause together.

Thanks for the support and input on this from any of you guys that have offered it.

I offer my forgiveness to Jorge and hope one day in the future I could call him a brother in Jesus.

If he gives my money back I'll offer 10% to charity and buy Jorge a really expensive Mexican beer.

Happy shooting to all you guys.

[Kirk Gittings]

With that, I think it has all been said and I am closing this thread.