"Outsourcing" Photoshop work

[domenico Foschi]

I got an email today from this company.
http://www.deepetch.com/home.php
I understand time is valuable.
Digital main advantage, probably after savings, is speed in turnaround time.
Now this company is telling us that we can get even faster and less stressed by giving them part of the Photoshop work.
What's your opinion?

[Marko]

Sure, you can have your (B&W) negatives developed and your prints made by a lab too.

But would you do it? :)

[Walter Calahan]

I'm going to outsource my creativity too.

I don't see how anyone can make the type of adjustments I make to interpret my images.

This is one of my favorite final exam questions to my college photo students when I teach basic B&W printing. We 'interpret' our negatives.

Since when do we not interpret our digital files?

I got the same e-mail. Put it in my spam filter.

[Bruce Watson]

The time it takes you to explain to them what you want done could probably be better spent doing it yourself. You'll likely get results that better match your intentions, and it will probably actually be quicker since you won't have to explain it to anyone else. Or take the time to ship stuff back and forth.

And shipping stuff back and forth is a real productivity killer, at least for me. It forces you into a multi-tasking mode where you do a little bit then wait. So you start something else. Repeat until you have six of seven projects in process. Then the first thing comes back and interrupts what you are currently working on. Etc. So you end up working a lot without accomplishing much. Blech.

Just not my way of working I guess. And therefore clearly, YMMV.

[Frank Petronio]

It makes sense for wedding photographers and others who need to process a lot of digital images, in fact there are many services already, domestic and off-shore. Since it would all be FTP delivery there is no "shipping" or delay. In fact some places will do it while you sleep. You can also specify exactly what you want do with your workflow.

When you think about it, 90% of what you need done is rudimentary grunt work -- make the grey grey, hit a black and white point, dust bust, make lines straight, remove blemishes, blend backgrounds. So why not outsource it when you are faced with doing hundreds of images?

What's funny is so many of you will turn up your noses at this, yet you think nothing of sending your film off to be drum-scanned, which is really the most crucial step in the process and very dependent on the scan operator's skill.

At the highest end of commercial work, retouchers can also be "stars" in their own right. Or the closely guarded secret employees of the most famous photographers.

I think we would all be surprised by just how much retouching and manipulation goes into most of the modern commercial images.

[domenico Foschi]

It makes sense for wedding photographers and others who need to process a lot of digital images, in fact there are many services already, domestic and off-shore.

At the highest end of commercial work, retouchers can also be "stars" in their own right. Or closely guarded secrets of the most famous photographers.

I think we would all be surprised by just how much retouching and manipulation goes into most of the modern commercial images.

I agree, Frank.
The amount of retouching especially in a wedding is a cumbersome task and I would probably see the service of such a company useful.
Also, as you say, there are photoshop artists who have a real talent in using this tool and hiring them is just like hiring a gifted printer.
Then it comes the question; whose image really is, but I won't get into that.
I am not sure where I would lean toward.

[Duane Polcou]

At the highest end of commercial work, retouchers can also be "stars" in their own right. Or the closely guarded secret employees of the most famous photographers.

I think we would all be surprised by just how much retouching and manipulation goes into most of the modern commercial images.

This is so true. In the days before desktop photoshop editing was commonplace, I shot some stills for an indy film in NJ. The shoot was in a corporate office. I wandered into a space that was half the size of a football field with dozens of workstations where there were pictures of recognizeable supermodels everywhere. This company, as it tuned out, did most of the retouching for the major North American fashion magazines. Until that point I had no idea this practice even existed, or at least not on this massive scale. Outsourcing of image editing has been going on for years, and for many it's just part of a creative workflow that entrusts some of the execution to those with refined skills.

[jetcode]

no way ... starting at 60 cents? I can't turn my computer on for 60 cents.

[jetcode]

I think we would all be surprised by just how much retouching and manipulation goes into most of the modern commercial images.

I'm not ... I've met some high end models and their skin does not look like the airbrushed images on magazine covers ... for the most part though some truly are gifted

[Brian Ellis]

Half the pleasure of photography for me has always been in making the print, first in a darkroom, now digitally. I've never used a lab in my life except to process color film a few times and never plan to. But I'm not a commercial photographer and don't work in great volume. For someone who does a lot of volume commercially it might make sense just as a wet lab for printing makes sense for some.

[PViapiano]

There was an article in The New Yorker recently about the guy who does almost all the retouching work for the major fashion magazines. In one recent issue of Vogue, he had done almost all the editorial photos and something like 124 of the 140 ad photos.

[jetcode]

There was an article in The New Yorker recently about the guy who does almost all the retouching work for the major fashion magazines. In one recent issue of Vogue, he had done almost all the editorial photos and something like 124 of the 140 ad photos.

a lot of photographers simply blow the highlights out to mask flaws in skin tone

[jetcode]

It makes sense for wedding photographers and others who need to process a lot of digital images, in fact there are many services already, domestic and off-shore. Since it would all be FTP delivery there is no "shipping" or delay. In fact some places will do it while you sleep. You can also specify exactly what you want do with your workflow.


If I had that much work I'd hire an assistant ... they can batch process images as efficiently regardless of location ... I recently FTP'd 400M of files and it took several hours, it's faster than mail but it's not instant like your desktop and data traffic isn't free

[Rob Champagne]

Sounds like there are one hell of a lot a useless photographers out there if they need to rely on someone else to make their images look good. Time was, when the photographer was expected to get it right on film. Now you just send out anyone who can point a camera and then let someone else waste their time fixing bad photography.
Won't be long before they let the retouching guys draw the photographs from scratch and do away with the photograper. They might as well since the end result bears no resemblance to the subject.

[Greg Lockrey]

Sounds like there are one hell of a lot a useless photographers out there if they need to rely on someone else to make their images look good. Time was, when the photographer was expected to get it right on film. Now you just send out anyone who can point a camera and then let someone else waste their time fixing bad photography.
Won't be long before they let the retouching guys draw the photographs from scratch and do away with the photograper. They might as well since the end result bears no resemblance to the subject.

Hate to tell you but most pros relied on guys like me to do their finishing work. Been doing it for almost 40 years now. :) 30 years in a wet lab and for the last 10 with wide format digital printing.

(One of the nice things about going digital is that I don't have to deal with pin head photographers that need only one image.)

[jetcode]

maybe the useless photographers are out of touch with reality ... from what I understand even playboy 8x10 spreads were airbrushed ...

[Frank Petronio]

Com'on Annie Leibowitz is supposedly the greatest photographer of our time and she hasn't made a print since art school and she hires people to do her lighting and tech because she doesn't know how.

Stephen Miesel makes millions shooting Fashion, including 8x10 Polaroids, and doesn't own a camera -- he simply rents everything including techs to do all the set-up, settings, etc. He simply looks through the viewfinder -- he even has a tech focus I bet.

I'm not saying that those examples are the right way to be -- but it's common practice on the high end these days.

I bet Avedon and Penn laughed at them.

[bob carnie]

I have been making a pretty good living for the last 30 years as well. There are some things that we do better as professional printers.
Even today , I spent an hour bailing out a bad shoot with specific PS tools. 24 more hours booked at a good rate.
Some of our clients prefer to spend all their time behind the camera, and pass the printing to us, as we spend all our time making prints.

Greg you have hit it on the head.

Hate to tell you but most pros relied on guys like me to do their finishing work. Been doing it for almost 40 years now. :) 30 years in a wet lab and for the last 10 with wide format digital printing.

(One of the nice things about going digital is that I don't have to deal with pin head photographers that need only one image.)

[Rick Russell]

This thread is quite eye-opening.

Until moments ago, I never considered myself a useless photographer, never contemplated that I outsourced my creativity. Yes, I am someone who sends out ("outsources") development, post production and printing. Given the prevalence of the many service agencys that I do not use, I must not be alone.

Someone posted, specific to black and white development, asking why. In part I have made a resource decision, largely relating to resource (time) and skill. Having other interests besides that which occurs after the cable release is pushed, I have chosen to utilize a well known service agency to develop the black and white neg, color neg and slides I shoot. Certainly I could develop the black and white film, but because I so value every moment leading up to pushing the cable release, and the fact that I have not fully committed to spending the time and monetary resource to develop the black and white, and do it well, it accompanies the color work to be processed.

Frankly, I must admit that I do not feel like a lesser person having made this decision. I have previously processed black and white film up through and including printing (35 years ago) and loved it immensely. It was a magical process, and I will no doubt do it again in the future. But right now, I'm happy with what I am doing.

Another apparent sacrilege on my part is that I do not photoshop. Yes, I admit it, I "outsource" photoshop work. I simply have yet to take the time to learn it. Will I in the future, I don't know. At this point in my life, and where I am in enjoying the hobby of photography, I am willing to be considered less than a real photographer as I do not post process. Perhaps in the future I will take the time to learn photoshop, but it has yet to happen.

Nor do I print. I work with an excellent printer, who over time has begun to understand what I look for in an image, and has translated my "vision" into nice prints. We discuss what I want through an iterative process, which I am quite happy with at this point. Perhaps I will over time become expert in printing.

Thus, I am someone who immensely enjoys making images, at least the front end of the process. I utilize others, who are all outstanding at what they do, to develop, scan, post-process and print my images. Despite my particular workflow, or the lack thereof, I enjoy what I do, and the resultant images.

Notwithstanding my enjoyment and my passion for what I do, it apparently is worthy of disparagement and derision. Fair enough, because I do what I do because I enjoy it. I hope in the future to get to a higher level of involvement in the craft of photography, but am presently able to sleep at night despite it all.

Rick Russell
richardrussell-1@ca.rr.com

[jetcode]

Com'on Annie Leibowitz is supposedly the greatest photographer of our time and she hasn't made a print since art school and she hires people to do her lighting and tech because she doesn't know how.

Stephen Miesel makes millions shooting Fashion, including 8x10 Polaroids, and doesn't own a camera -- he simply rents everything including techs to do all the set-up, settings, etc. He simply looks through the viewfinder -- he even has a tech focus I bet.


The nice thing about renting gear is it is location specific ... and I'd enjoy immensely a day or two with either of these photographers ... the one who does it all may not be taking advantage of their inherent talents ... unless that talent is doing it all

[Marko]

Rick,

For the record, it was me who asked why outsource the B&W processing. It was someone else who posted the bit about "useless photographers".

The prevalent attitude on this board is one of the ownership of the entire process, along with the primacy of the print. Many would also put forward the superiority of traditional process.

Personally, as someone who engages in photography as a hobby, I tend to subscribe to the first notion, but not to the other two. I do consider image-taking the most important part of the photographic process, but I also feel my enjoyment of the entire process would be diminished by delegating portions of it to others. That's why I tend to use film for b&w only and digital for both color and b&w.

But I firmly believe - and say so loudly, if you look into the archives - that whatever workflow and whatever technology you choose, it is your business and therefore your choice. I maintain that nobody has any business telling me what to do nor how, save perhaps for my clients who pay for my work and even then only to an extent.

I also try hard to extend the same courtesy to others, as a matter of principle. Having said that, I also think that disagreeing with an opinion is very different from disparaging the opinion or attacking the person behind it.

[darr]

Now you just send out anyone who can point a camera and then let someone else waste their time fixing bad photography.

I started doing post-processing digital retouching last year for a few "pros". You would not believe the crap I clean up. :eek: I think digital photography has brought on a whole new batch of incompetents that call themselves professional. When they question me about their exposure mistakes and I ask them what exactly were they shooting for, I usually advise them to incorporate the Zone System into their shooting style for certain photos. They look at me like I invented the words "Zone System."

[jetcode]

I started doing post-processing digital retouching last year for a few "pros". You would not believe the crap I clean up. :eek: I think digital photography has brought on a whole new batch of incompetents that call themselves professional. When they question me about their exposure mistakes and I ask them what exactly were they shooting for, I usually advise them to incorporate the Zone System into their shooting style for certain photos. They look at me like I invented the words "Zone System."

those incompetants pay your bills ... never piss in the well you drink from ...

[darr]

those incompetants pay your bills ... never piss in the well you drink from ...

Oh Joe! I never piss in the well that I drink from! I make the majority of my income from other sources. If I had to depend on this alone, I would be depressed! ;)

[jetcode]

Oh Joe! I never piss in the well that I drink from! I make the majority of my income from other sources. If I had to depend on this alone, I would be depressed! ;)

darr ... I knew this and felt a little odd after writing that ... it is my own medicine from my own medicine bottle

[darr]

I was diagnosed with carpal tunnel syndrome on Thursday (OUCH -- painful indeed) in my right wrist/arm. This is definitely putting a damper on my post-processing work flow. Looks like it'll be only my own work for the future unless this painful syndrome can actually be controlled. I have been processing more than my normal work flow since I started taking on weddings from a few area photographers last year. The work generally encompass 400-500 additional images every week or two. I take their portable hard drives, upload their images to my external drives and begin hacking away at them usually through Lightroom and the occasional retouching in CS3.

Anyone else have to deal with this? I have a wrist brace I am to wear when sleeping and I have been told to invest into ergonomically designed computer furniture that will hopefully aid my physical needs better. Oh yeah, I am to cut down on my computer time. :(

Suggestions would be appreciated -- not meaning to hi-jack the thread, but maybe this applies to others that do post-processing work for other photographers or those that may be considering putting a lot more time into it.

Thanks,
Darr

[Ralph Barker]

Darr - frozen gel packs (20 min on with a thin cloth buffer, 20 min off), and Ibuprofen also help reduce the swelling. It may take several weeks of wearing the brace, along with remediation of the swelling and pain, before you're back to normal function in the wrist.

[darr]

Darr - frozen gel packs (20 min on with a thin cloth buffer, 20 min off), and Ibuprofen also help reduce the swelling. It may take several weeks of wearing the brace, along with remediation of the swelling and pain, before you're back to normal function in the wrist.

Will do!! Thanks Ralph! :)

[Eric Leppanen]

I am in much the same boat as Rick. I "outsource" the processing, scanning and printing of my images (both color and B&W). But for an amateur like me, who is still learning despite actively shooting as a hobby for fifteen years (and shooting LF for eight years), outsourcing these tasks has benefits that in some ways outweigh the detriments.

Over the years I have assembled a "team" of lab professionals (including separate labs dedicated to color and B&W, and individuals dedicated to processing, scanning, and both traditional and digital printing) which not only perform their various tasks but also give me valuable feedback along the way. As a regular customer I discuss with them not only the technical aspects of the various processes but also the aesthetic and compositional aspects of my work (most of the folks have worked with successful/famous photographers and double as working photographers in addition to their lab work). Their "value-add" to me goes well beyond the nominal tasks that they are performing.

Also, inkjet printing technology in particular has been evolving rapidly and it would be very expensive for me to continually upgrade to the latest technology every eighteen months or so (I like to make big prints so the smaller format printers would not do).

Of course, at some point I'll probably decide to take on the creative printing process myself rather than articulating what I want done to others. Admittedly there will be a freeing aspect to this, and I'll be better able to experiment and take more creative risks. But scanning, Photoshop and printing each have substantial learning curves, and for now I have preferred to spend my limited photography time taking pictures rather than sitting in front of a computer and learning these technologies.

[David_Senesac]

There was a time a dozen years ago when almost all photographers only sent in original film that lab service pros using early digital printers like Evercolor and then early Cymbolic Sciences Lightjet 5000 and the Durst Lambda then scanned, processed with early Photoshop or Scitex aps, and then printed out results for. The change began to occur when Kodak PhotoCDs came out that we early implementers then processed with Photoshop 3.0 of that day. And just a half dozen years ago most labs with professional printers still received original media they would have to process themselves instead of print files. Thus the current workflow where photograhers actually do the post processing does not go back many years. Before that time printing large prints was an enlargement lens process without any digital flow.
...David

[Ash]

I like how many originated white and the texture added after

[adrian tyler]

I was diagnosed with carpal tunnel syndrome on Thursday (OUCH -- painful indeed) in my right wrist/arm. This is definitely putting a damper on my post-processing work flow. Looks like it'll be only my own work for the future unless this painful syndrome can actually be controlled. I have been processing more than my normal work flow since I started taking on weddings from a few area photographers last year. The work generally encompass 400-500 additional images every week or two. I take their portable hard drives, upload their images to my external drives and begin hacking away at them usually through Lightroom and the occasional retouching in CS3.

Anyone else have to deal with this? I have a wrist brace I am to wear when sleeping and I have been told to invest into ergonomically designed computer furniture that will hopefully aid my physical needs better. Oh yeah, I am to cut down on my computer time. :(

Suggestions would be appreciated -- not meaning to hi-jack the thread, but maybe this applies to others that do post-processing work for other photographers or those that may be considering putting a lot more time into it.

Thanks,
Darr


change mouse hands, i do it from time to time, frustrating at first but not impossible. get a qualified iyengar yoga teachers list for your area and sign up - if you want to you'll be able to "cure" it, something that drugs and furniture will not do.

[darr]

change mouse hands, i do it from time to time, frustrating at first but not impossible. get a qualified iyengar yoga teachers list for your area and sign up - if you want to you'll be able to "cure" it, something that drugs and furniture will not do.

I am switching my mouse from right-side to left-side. Good Idea! :) I did do a search for the yoga classes and found one in Tallahassee who's web site is down. I will keep trying. I appreciate your response Adrian!

Best,
Darr

[Daniel_Buck]

in my industry (visual effects) carpal tunnel syndrome and other problems with sitting at a computer for 8 to 14+ hours a day (back problems, neck/shoulder problems and so on), most folks find that a wacom tablet is much easier on the wrist. However, it too can have it's own problems, more in the elbow/shoulder area though from what I gather (though not as common). Alot of folks switch off between the two, I do. Some folks sit on big yoga balls instead of chairs, some people stand and work on desks that are much higher up, and so on.

[pablo batt]

give them your camera, your house and car , then you wont have to worry about living your life at all.

[Ben Syverson]

Have you ever dustbusted 8x10 at 2400 DPI?

I wouldn't have them do color correction, but I can definitely see the value in having them do grunt work.

[jnantz]

there are plenty of commercial and wedding and portrait photographers
who send their work out to be worked on. there is a long tradition of doing
this. maybe the difference here is that it is a faceless ( to you anyways ) company
in asia instead of someone that is local &C.

for 10+ months i worked in the darkroom and was training to do the retouching for
a portrait photographer. her time was best spent behind the camera, not
in the dark processing hundreds of sheets of 5x7 film, and then infront of an adams retouching desk, and then back in the dark to proof and later make finished prints.
does that mean she was outsourcing her creativity ?

that is just how much of the commercial photography industry works. a lot of (commercial) photographers
are behind the camera, not infront of the monitor, because that is where their time is best
spent ... just like 20 or 40 or 80 years ago

[nathanm]

On a somewhat related note, I was blown away the day I discovered a company where you can outsource your CLIPPING PATH DRAWING work! Yes, people will hand-draw clipping paths for your pre-press needs! Yikes!!! My jaw just about hit the desk. It was then that I looked into the seventh gate of hell and imagined the horror of having a job doing THE most tedious, eye-wateringly painful Photoshop task ever, ALL DAY LONG!!! Whoever works for that company deserves a medal! Or companies I should say as a current Google search reveals there are more than one. Just amazing!

[Ben Syverson]

If you think that's bad, there are whole post production shops in the developing world that do nothing but rotoscope (which is like clipping path drawing multiplied by every frame of a video sequence), paint work (like Photoshop retouching, but for every frame), wire removal (painting out rigging wires in every frame), and frame-by-frame dustbusting.

The worst part is that they don't even get paid well.