Help- nothing comes out on my film.

[zoom2zoom]

hi everyone,

please don’t make fun of me, as this is my first time with LF. Anyways, I ordered film, chemicals from Freestyle last week, and they all came in yesterday, so I was excited to be able to do a few test shots last night. And I also tried to develop film using open trays…. But after few tries, all my negatives comes out completely blank, like clear transparencies.. no images no colors….

I tried different speeds, apertures, etc.. I also tried different times for trays, etc.. but no results.

Am I doing this correctly or am I doing something wrong, here is my process.

1. I load the 5x7 film in total darkness, with the notch of the film on the top-right corner and slide the film into the holder, and slide the dark slide in.

2. I set the camera up, focus, then I close the shutter and insert the film holder, pull the dark slide out, then shoot.

3. I put the dark slide back and pull the holder out.

4. time for developing, again total darkness, I have 4 trays – developing, stop, fix, wash. I followed the instructions on the bottle for the correct mixture and temp.

5. I put the film in the developing tray and with my fingers, I flip the film from top to bottom about once every 30 sec.

6. Its in the developer for 5 mins as recommended, then I move it to the stop for 20 sec.

7. then I put it in the fixer for 5 mins, also flipping the film about every 30 secs.

8. afterwards, I turn the light on to move to the wash, but there is no image on the film whatsoever.

It was getting too late by then, so I stopped.

i am using a Agfa Ansco 5x7 View Camera and i used Arista.edu 100 ISO B&W film

[Jim Galli]

First off, "top right" when holding the holder in "portrait" mode, not "landscape"? Next is to stick your face in the back of the camera and trip the shutter a few times. Maybe it's broke and not letting any light in?

[MIke Sherck]

It sounds to me as though you are loading the film into the holder upside down. If you hold the film holder in your left hand and hold it parallel to the ground, one long edge of the film holder is close to your body and one edge is farther away. The notch in the film should be on the edge closest to you. Similarly, if you hold the film holder in your left hand perpendicular to the ground ("Up and down"), you'll have one long edge of the film holder on the "bottom" and the other long side on the "top". The notch in the film goes on the side toward the bottom. From your description, I think that you have it backwards.

Processing: you can turn on the lights after its through with the fixer, you don't need to wash or dry it before turning on the lights.

Do it one sheet at a time until you are sure that you have the process right: load one sheet, shoot one sheet, process one sheet until you get correct results, then go for more sheets of film. Good luck!

Mike

[zoom2zoom]

thank you guys for the fast response..

i loaded the film wrong... cant wait to go home and try again.

thanks

by the way, how long do i leave the film in the fixer? is 5 mins about right?

[Ken Lee]

It depends on the fixer and its dilution. Just follow the instructions, and you will be fine.

You are in for a pleasant surprise when this all comes together.

[Brian Ellis]

You don't need to leave the lights off while the film is in the fix and certainly not when it's in the wash. Once it's been in stop bath it's through developing for the time being. The purpose of the fixer is to get rid of residual silver halides that would discolor the film if they stayed there and were exposed to light over a relatively long period of time. But that's not going to come even close to happening while the film is still in the fix. So feel free to minimize your time standing around doing nothing in total darkness and turn the lights on once the film is in the fix. I've been doing that for years and years with no problem. In fact I turn a light on when the film is in the stop bath but that's a different matter.

I'd suggest that you perform the test someone else mentioned about taking the back off the camera and tripping the shutter at different speeds to make sure that light is getting through. Unless you were using very small apertures and/or very fast shutter speeds and/or photographing in dim light you should have gotten something on the film even if it was loaded backwards. Totally clear film sounds to me like film that hasn't been exposed to light or that was placed in the fix when you thought it was in the developer (one of the favorite tricks of a few students in the beginning photography course I taught for a while though it's easier to do that when using tanks than trays).

[DaveAlbano]

I think your shutter was closed when you took the shot? I had 2 blank sheets and found with the lens I used (and don't use often), I was able to close the shutter and still fire two off with it closed. Maybe your exposure was so off itwas blank, but even at 1/500 at f32..unless you were taking pictures of a dark room you should have has some image "fog". Remove your lens, and play with the buttons.

[zoom2zoom]

thanks everyone.. i loaded the film wrong/backwards, so i will correct that and try again tonight.

also, thanks for the info about able to turn the light on once the film is in the fixer, to save me time sitting in the dark..

[rippo]

top right notch is correct. i'm not sure why mike says he thinks that's wrong. if you have the notch in the top right, then you are staring at the emulsion side. that side of the film is the side that should face outward from the holder.

if you shot through the back of the film (i.e. had it in the wrong way), you should probably have seen at least some image on the film. it would have been a few stops too little, but there should have been something.

when you do another test, try a couple more things:

- first, make sure your shutter appears to be working, as others have mentioned. double check your metering and your shutter and aperture settings.

- in addition to your tests, expose one sheet of film in 'B' mode, holding the shutter open for a second or two (or at least five times the length of your metered shutter speed, if it's a long one). Then take another sheet and just expose it to the light.

the last two will test your development procedure, and will also remove any timing issues from your shutter test. for these last two, you should get a grossly overexposed (dense) image on one, and a completely solid black negative for the other.

[zoom2zoom]

top right notch is correct. i'm not sure why mike says he thinks that's wrong. if you have the notch in the top right, then you are staring at the emulsion side. that side of the film is the side that should face outward from the holder.



what i did last night is holding the film holder with my left hand in landscape format (long side next to my body), then i slide the film with my right hand with the notch on the top right (at my right index finger)..

from what others says, i need to have the notch on the bottom right (at my right palm) when i load this way.

i am almost sure that this is the reason, as i checked the shutter and the blades seems to open correctly, and there should be at least some image on the film,

anyways, i will try again first thing i get home.

[rippo]

ah, i misunderstood, and now i concur with everyone else (sorry, mike!). to me, "top right" means the notch is on the top edge, over to the right. but i could see how that could also be interpreted as "at the top of the right edge". :)

[Alan Curtis]

Go to the top of this page, click LF Home Page. A few lines from the top is a section called loading film. You will see a drawing of how the film and notches should look in the holder.
I also think it is a shutter problem.
Good luck.

[kev curry]

Once I managed to set the ISO on my light meter to 3200 when using film at a personal speed of 320 ISO...... I was trying to set up a shot whilst under attack from the infamous Scottish midge(man eating insect) at the time........ the effect was that my zone III became zone 0...... Just a thought?

[zoom2zoom]

i just found a helpful link for me... i did load the film wrong

http://www.butzi.net/articles/filmload.htm

[Joanna Carter]

from what others says, i need to have the notch on the bottom right (at my right palm) when i load this way.
That would be correct :)

[cyrus]

Still, even if you loaded the film wrong, you should have gotten some density rather than a transparent negative. I also suggest you not rush, and check once more that your shutter is working etc.

[domenico Foschi]

I would also suggest to presoak the film prior to developing for 3-5 minutes in order to have the emulsion uniformly wet.

[MIke Sherck]

ah, i misunderstood, and now i concur with everyone else (sorry, mike!). :)

Oh, drat: now I have to recall the bombers. :)

Mike

[zoom2zoom]

i got right home and did few more tests.. with film loaded the right way, i checked the shutter by sticking my head in the bellows, and i can see the blades open and close.. and all seems to work.

BUT, i still get clear transparent negative?? nothing, completely clear.

i think i am doing something wrong in developing process.. i followed the directions, using 9 to 1 for developing, for 5 mins, then transfer to stop (31 to 1) for 30 secs, then 5 more mins in fix at 4 to 1

may be i am agitating wrong?

will try again later tonight, wife not happy with me in the basement in the dark..



Still, even if you loaded the film wrong, you should have gotten some density rather than a transparent negative. I also suggest you not rush, and check once more that your shutter is working etc.

[Stephanie Brim]

A completely clear negative means that it was never exposed. Go through your steps EXACTLY as you did them. Retrace your steps without leaving anything out. Then we can possibly figure out where you're going wrong.

[Capocheny]

I agree with Dave and Cyrus... sounds like a shutter problem to me as well.

Take the back off the camera, close and cock the shutter. While looking through the back of the camera and through the lens... fire the shutter and see if it opens.

If it doesn't... there's your problem.

Do this for all the apertures.

Good luck.

Cheers

[rippo]

he's already confirmed, the shutter is firing.

zoom: as i mentioned, try developing a sheet of film exposed to room light. that takes the camera completely out of the equation. if you still get a clear sheet of film, there's something wrong with your processing (or film). if it develops with solid density, then the camera/operator is at fault. :)

if the room-light neg develops with the appropriate density, then try the overexposed 'bulb' test i mentioned earlier. that will eliminate any shutter timing or meter inaccuracies.

you're pulling the darkslide out of the holder before taking the shot, right? i seem to recall you mentioning that.

[Deane Johnson]

You might try loading the holder as you have been, then opening the dark slide to see if it's in correctly. You could then use that piece of film to test your developer as suggested above. It should be totally black after developing.

[Jim Galli]

Time to scrifice a piece of film. In room light stick a piece of film in the developer and watch what happens with the lights on. If you don't get a nice black piece of film in a couple of minutes or 5, your developer is junk. G'luck.


i got right home and did few more tests.. with film loaded the right way, i checked the shutter by sticking my head in the bellows, and i can see the blades open and close.. and all seems to work.

BUT, i still get clear transparent negative?? nothing, completely clear.

i think i am doing something wrong in developing process.. i followed the directions, using 9 to 1 for developing, for 5 mins, then transfer to stop (31 to 1) for 30 secs, then 5 more mins in fix at 4 to 1

may be i am agitating wrong?

will try again later tonight, wife not happy with me in the basement in the dark..

[zoom2zoom]

ok.. i took one film out, put it to room light and developed it.

took another unexposed film and develop it.

the one with room light is slightly darker than the unexposed one, but it is not total black.

the unexposed film comes out clear.

so i think its the developer, i am using Arista B&W film developer with 9to 1 ratio and 68 degree

[Jim Galli]

Bummer. Sure sounds like your developer went bad. Don't give up.

[Skorzen]

Something no one mentioned is that if you accidentally fix first you will get a clear negative. Although from your last test it does sound like your developer. You can probably find some D-76 or Ilford ID-11 (same thing) at a local shot that still has ANY darkroom stuff. That would save you ordering more from Freestyle. However I would get on the phone with Freestyle about the developer, I hear their customer service is good. I mention the film that you lost too, you might be able to get another box of 5X7 out of it.

[Brian Ellis]

Something no one mentioned is that if you accidentally fix first you will get a clear negative. . . . .

That's what I said in my message near the start of this thread.

[Jim Galli]

Something no one mentioned is that if you accidentally fix first you will get a clear negative.

Or even if you mixed up fix first and then didn't rinse the graduate, it takes very little fixer migrated into developer to end up with nothing.

[SAShruby]

he's already confirmed, the shutter is firing.

Rippo, he always agrees with someone, usually without analysing the problem...:rolleyes: Just another useless post.

[Skorzen]

That's what I said in my message near the start of this thread.

Sorry Brian I guess I missed that

[zoom2zoom]

ok guys.. i am totally frustrated, i tried more test shots, and still come out with nothing...

this is my first LF setup, i was wondering if someone here on this forum is willing to help me out by testing this camera or just the lens for me, i dont mind sending to you to test out, and then you can ship it back to me.

or can i send you a holder with film that i shot without developing and someone can see if it develops..

i just want to know if its the lens issue or developing issue..

[poco]

Zoom,

Did you try new developer? If the sheet exposed to room light in your previous test turned out only "slightly" darker than the unexposed sheet, then your developer is bad.

Before you go sending gear to people and all that....

-Michael

[Capocheny]

Hi zoom2zoom,

You don't say where you live but, perhaps, if you do post that information here... there may be someone on this forum (who lives in your neck of the woods) who could/would work with you in solving the problem.

It'll be a lot easier "first step" as opposed to sending pieces of your equipment off for others to test.

Good luck.

Cheers

[Vaughn]

Well, this is a possibility (it happens to our students on a regular basis)...

Are you using a flash/strobe or are you using ambient light to make your exposures? Is your shutter an older one or a newer one?

If you are using a flash or strobes, and if your lens is an older model, you might be out of sync. Older shutters have a switch marked "X" and "M"..."X" is for electronic flash and "M" is for flash bulbs. The purpose of the "M" setting is to delay the opening of the shutter until the flash bulb builds up to full power as it burns whatever inside of it (electronic flashes do not need this delay.)

So if you are using a flash/strobe and have the shutter set at "M", you end up with no exposure onto the film -- the electronic flash has been and gone before the shutter even opens.

Just a possibility...

Vaughn

[zoom2zoom]

ok..going to give another try.... went to the store and got some new developer..

i got the Kodak HC-110 developer

and i am using Arista.edu 100 5x7 film.

can someone please confirm, what is the water/developer ratio that i need, and how much fl oz of water is needed, i am using 6x8 trays.

and exactly how do i agitate the film and how long..

sorry to ask these simple questions, maybe i am doing something wrong.

PS. i shot all nature lighting, no strobes.

[zoom2zoom]

YES! YES! KODAK DEVELOPER WORKS!

finally, it came out...

freestyle sold me a defective developer and that was the issue..

such a relief as i thought i was going out of my mind trying to figure out what went wrong..

[Vaughn]

Frustrating, but I am glad the problem is solved. I thought the stobe idea was a long shot.

Good luck in your LF journey!

Vaughn

[John Kasaian]

What brand was the defective dev?

[MIke Sherck]

Well, your first large format experience was a little more exciting than most of us, but still -- welcome, and congratulations!

Mike

[zoom2zoom]

Well, your first large format experience was a little more exciting than most of us, but still -- welcome, and congratulations!

Mike

yeh.. took me awhile to get the hang of it.. but its been quite of a learning experience..

here is one of the first few shots of my sons... i noticed that one of the negatives has a strip running through, which matches up the bottom of the developer tray..

what is the best way to agitate the film??

PS. the bad developer from freestyle is Arista B&W film developer 64fl oz.

[Greg Lockrey]

I liked to agitate for about 10-15 sec every minute by lifting each corner of the tray going left to right and top and bottom. If there are more than one sheet, shuffling them from bottom to top leaving the bottom one one top and repeat. The trick is to be consistent in your process. With experience, you will begin to see what amount of agitation is right for you. You will see "cleaner" negatives with the right amount of agitation as apposed to "blocked" highlights with too much, etc...

[Scott Kathe]

Did you do constant agitation or stop for a period of time after every shuffle? I saw a very similar artifact when I developed with the emulsion down and shuffled the entire stack and let it set for 15 seconds. If you developed emulsion side down like I did and don't rotate the stack that could account for what you are seeing. I moved on to developing emulsion side up, shuffling from the bottom to the top of the stack and rotating the stack 90 degrees clockwise after every complete shuffle. Take a look at the Sheet film developing write-up by Steve Simmons over on processing black and white film http://www.viewcamera.com/archives.html

Cute kids:)

Scott

[zoom2zoom]

i read somewhere that emulsion should be down, and agitate the tray for 8 secs every minute.. the rest of the time the film sits in the tray, unmoved.

[steve simmons]

I have a step by step description of how I process sheet film in a tray in the Free Articles section of the View Camera web site. I never let my film just sit.

www.viewcamera.com

then go to Free Articles.

steve simmons

[Scott Kathe]

i read somewhere that emulsion should be down, and agitate the tray for 8 secs every minute.. the rest of the time the film sits in the tray, unmoved.

I'm pretty sure that is your problem. For 52 seconds the part of the bottom sheet of film above the channel is developing more because the developer can freely diffuse in and out of the emulsion. Where the emulsion on the film is in contact with the tray the developer cannot diffuse in and out and the developer trapped in the emulsion becomes 'exhausted'. That is why you are seeing the 'stripe'. There are two camps with respect to emulsion up or down. The issue you are seeing with emulsion down is the main reason I went to emulsion up. Exhaustion is going to happen in your stack of negatives as well if you let the stack sit for 52 seconds per minute because the developer cannot get to the emulsion inside the stack. Steve's method worked great for me-give it a go and you will be pleasantly surprised.

Emulsion up or down you have to be gentle so as not to scratch the emulsion. If you have money to burn try the Jobo system or a slosher, with those systems each sheet of film is separated from every other sheet and you don't have to worry about scratches.

Scott

[poco]

One answer to the banding problem is to throw an old bum negative into the bottom of the stack. If you make it the only neg with the notches oriented "wrong" it's easy to make sure it's always on the bottom of the tray.

[Skorzen]

glad to hear that you got it worked out, as I said before I would get on the phone with Freestyle about the developer and the film you wasted trying to use it. I think you should a least get a refund for the developer and I would think you might be able to get a free box of film out of it (or something I don't know how freestyle handles this sort of stuff but I hear their service is good).

[zoom2zoom]

promise.. this will be my last question.

i have all the solutions in its trays..

how long can i leave the solution in the trays before i develop again? or do i need to make new batches everytime i develop.

really, thank you all for your advices and help

[rippo]

if you're printing the next day, you can bottle it all up and use it again. but developer fixer exhaust...sometimes in the same printing session, if you're doing lots of prints. i print so infrequently that i throw out everything except the stop bath, which lasts for a long time and turns purple when it's spent.

i wouldn't leave the solutions sitting in trays though, as the developer will oxidize and become...well, like your first developer. :)

edit: and someone will quickly tell me that i'm wrong and that i should either a) throw out all solutions if they've been exposed to air for more than ten minutes, or b) reuse everything until it grows mold.

[walter23]

EDITED: Nevermind, you got it solved.

You might consider a rotary developer system like a unicolour drum, though the agitation that way is pretty extreme and I'm considering moving to a tank system like HP combiplan or something like that.




Zoom,

Did you try new developer? If the sheet exposed to room light in your previous test turned out only "slightly" darker than the unexposed sheet, then your developer is bad.

Before you go sending gear to people and all that....

-Michael

[JoeV]

Rippo, I use 'tupperware'-type plastic food storage tubs, with lids, that are large enough to fit a 5x7 sized negative, but I use these for 4x5 processing. With lids, and with the liquid level filled up to near the top, you can snap the lids on and keep the chemicals fresh for many days, as minimal amounts of oxygen get in. You can also put a piece of plastic wrap over the tub, with the film touching the liquid, and then snap the cover on, to ensure even less air gets to the chemicals.

I also use a simple hypo check using the drops of chemical, prior to reusing used fixer. You can also check used fixer for how long it takes to clear undeveloped film, and double that time.

It's important, when selecting these storage tubs, to choose a size larger than your film format, otherwise you'll get issues of over-development near the edges, because waves of liquid motion bounce off the container's sides and strike the outer zone of the film, causing local over-agitation to the outer zone.

I think the biggest challenge to tray developing film, and in general hand-processing sheet film, are scratches and dust. You really need to work toward a processing environment that is as close to clean-room quality as possible.

~Joe