Only lf stuff allowed in classifieds now ?

[Fred L]

Hey all,

Wasn't sure where to post this but figured this would be better than classifieds. Mods, move this to the appropriate forum if need be.

Just noticed that items other than large format related are not allowed there anymore. Is this a new rule or just an old rule that's being enforced ? Don't have anything to sell but just curious as I've had some great buys that weren't lf posted there.


Fred

[RPNugent]

I noticed that too today. The rules don't say large format only, maybe a new thing?


For Sale/Wanted - open to all registered members for the sale or acquisition of their own personal photographic equipment. This is an at-your-own-risk section, and the forum, its owners and moderators make(s) no endorsements of sellers or specific products. This is not for dealers or commercial vendors. And, no pointers to eBay or other auction listings, nor listings of items that are already up for auction. Mis-use of the section may result in disceplinary action at the sole discretion of the moderators.

[Dave Parker]

This what is says right under the forum heading:

"Use of this area is strictly at your own risk. This is a private area where LF Forum members may post for sale & wanted-to-buy ads for large format items. No references to active external ads or auctions, please. Please prefix posts to indicate intent: "WTB", "FS" , "FT" (for trade), etc. No dealers, please."

[Don Hutton]

Dave

That's new text. Anyway, I think it's completely pedantic to lock postings of items which are clearly of a lot of interest to LF members (like a Mamiya 7 outfit), when magazine editors use every opportunity for commercial promotion. There are strict guidelines about announcing events - like a single posting, but these threads get extended into long term marketing plans.

Hell, there's even a moderator who keeps on dropping hints about his scanning services... It's just head up ass stuff...

[Fred L]

That's what I was curious about. The header says large format but I never paid much attention to it before so I don't know if it was always there or just added. I don't think there's any harm in posting say, mf gear unless it's a bandwidth thing.

I'd just as soon have that option as well as all the mentions for some magazines which may or may not have anything to do with lf (just in general and not directed at anyone specifically).

[Michael Graves]

From what I've seen on other posts here, the vast majority of us use medium format as well as large format. I have a Mamiya TLR, a Mamiya 7 and a (retired) Kowa 66. Many of us are collectors as well as users and for one, I like perusing the FS section and would miss the vintage photographica and MF stuff.

[Dave Parker]

Dave

That's new text. Anyway, I think it's completely pedantic to lock postings of items which are clearly of a lot of interest to LF members (like a Mamiya 7 outfit), when magazine editors use every opportunity for commercial promotion. There are strict guidelines about announcing events - like a single posting, but these threads get extended into long term marketing plans.

Hell, there's even a moderator who keeps on dropping hints about his scanning services... It's just head up ass stuff...

Don,

I was not condoning or condemning, I had just noticed the text had been changed...I was always under the impression(perhaps incorrectly) that if you were a member in good standing that it was ok to post non-LF gear at times.


Dave

[Don Hutton]

I was always under the impression(perhaps incorrectly) that if you were a member in good standing...Who knows! I think the rules have either changed or are being made up as we go along....

Anyway, I simply don't get it - in the past couple of weeks, there has been all sorts of Canon digital gear posted, along with loads of other non-LF items. None of those posts have been "locked" or deleted. And if the posting is so contrary to the rules, surely it should be deleted, not locked?

[B.S.Kumar]

I wrote to Tom Westbrook, and he said that he would talk to the other moderators. I don*t see why an occasional non-LF item should not be listed. All of us have different kinds of gear, and to be able to trade stuff on the forum is better than the bay!

Cheers,
Kumar

[Brian Ellis]

That's new text. . . ...

I don't know what you consider new but I inquired about it a couple years ago so it's been there at least that long. It may have come in back when the forum changed and started allowing FS ads for the first time, which must have been four or five years ago now.

AFAIK the policy has always been to ignore the language that seemingly allows ads only for LF gear and instead to allow FS ads for anything photographic. A couple years ago I suggested to one of the moderators that either the language be changed to conform to the policy or the policy be changed to conform to the language but that suggestion fell on deaf ears and the language has remained, as have the many ads for non-LF gear (which is fine with me, I don't really care one way or another, it just seems to me that the policy should conform to the rule, whatever it may be, and vice versa).

[Doug Dolde]

There are a lot of very conservative types on here. Probably these people are totally powerless at home (wife wears the pants) so flex their powers here.

[Scott Kathe]

From what I've seen on other posts here, the vast majority of us use medium format as well as large format. I have a Mamiya TLR, a Mamiya 7 and a (retired) Kowa 66. Many of us are collectors as well as users and for one, I like perusing the FS section and would miss the vintage photographica and MF stuff.

Well said. While I really don't think this is the place for 35mm gear I don't see an issue with posting medium format gear if it is not a first post. I think that a person who is 'active' here should be able to sell medium and large format gear. I love my lowly Minolta Autocord TLR when I don't have the time for large format. If I had the cash I'd like to try the legendary Mamiya 7II or a Hasselblad 500C/M system but for now I'll stick with large format (and the Autocord).

Scott

[David A. Goldfarb]

For a long time this forum allowed no ads or commercial posts at all. While it is convenient to be able to buy and sell from people we know on the forum, the culture of the commerce-free forum also had its attractions.

[gregstidham]

I applaud the Moderators working to keep this forum for only Large Format related items and discussion. There are other places for selling smaller format equipment.

[Maretzo]

I applaud the Moderators working to keep this forum for only Large Format related items and discussion. There are other places for selling smaller format equipment.

I concur. LF forum should be reserved to LF only. Otherwise the LF will be flooded with anything that we can find on Ebay.

[Fred L]

Proportionally speaking, I didn't think that sub lf gear was overwhelming in the classifieds. Personally I'd like to see it opened back up to allow other formats as well, particularly mf. I use everything from 35 to 8x10 and always scan the fs and prefer to buy from members here vs e@#y. Indeed, since it's become a closed section, wouldn't that cut down on drive by sellers ?

[D. Bryant]

I really don't see what the problem is about allowing forum members to sell photography related items that are not directly LF related, ie. MF or SF cameras. No one is forced to read the FS posts nor purchase anything. I think having an open FS forum adds to the sense of community.

And as someone else mentioned, if a moderator can soft sell their scanning services why can't someone occasionally sell non LF gear. I just don't see the egregious issue here.

Don Bryant

[Kirk Gittings]

The LF community is extremely varied in its interests. The forum, while maintaining its focus, should allow these diverse interests and not be a straight jacket or a true believers cult. It has managed fine up to this point (flourished since I have been here AAMOF) without over regulation.

I for one opposed all selling when It was originally discussed, because I feared sales posts would take over the forum-WRONG.

[otzi]

Would it help to have an other section. One for direct LF lenses and cameras etc as now. And an other for all other stuff. I was thinking that would help in the finding and re-finding of posts. Because I can see the time will come that some will reckon this group to be a cash cow for all sorts of vaguely related photo stuff. - Just my take on it.

[Merg Ross]

When this forum introduced the FS category, it became a commercial enterprise and and invited the attendant peril. I have listed, and purchased, here with complete satisfaction. The question becomes one of not only defining large format, but also of what serves the large format community. On a strictly personal note, I must say that MF equipment has gone hand in hand with my long association with large format cameras. Accordingly, I am not opposed to the posting of MF equipment for sale as long as it does not invite discussion on medium format technique.

[Capocheny]

I certainly don't have an issue with LF or MF or... EVEN 35mm (limited) being offered for sale on this forum. As Kirk mentioned... some of us do have diverse interests.

However, given the nature of people who will push the boundaries as far as they can... I'm just waiting/expecting to see cell phones with built-in cameras offered for sale!

A policy should be decided on by QT and the moderators and, once implemented, that policy should be judiciously enforced. No exceptions!

Don, as far as "...moderators soft-selling their scanning services..." - scanning is a LF related activity and it shouldn't be lumped in with the "selling other than LF" gear discussion. IMHO, scanning services is/are definitely LF-related and if there is somebody here who can offer to do it (and do it extremely well...) then, why not? Otherwise, it goes out to another facility that doesn't contribute to the viability of this forum.

Just my 2 cents worth! :)

Cheers

[cotdt]

I could see people selling memory cards as being the wrong place for this forum, but I don't see what the issue is if people sell things of interest to the majority of LF photographers like a Mamiya 7 system or film equipment in general.

[Tony Karnezis]

I agree with Merg Ross. I think a problem is how you define "large format." A few threads tried to answer that question and came up with less consensus than one might think.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=24277&highlight=large+format

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=24316&highlight=large+format

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=26099&highlight=large+format

[Eric James]

...A policy should be decided on by QT and the moderators and, once implemented, that policy should be judiciously enforced. No exceptions!...

From my perspective it seemed like an unknown member posted MF gear for sale with his first post. With recent report of deals gone wrong the powers at hand have decided to tighten things up. Don's MF gear ad was locked for the sake of consistency. I'm all for seeing MF FS ads but the line has to be drawn somewhere - if not it's just a matter of time before we see Nokian phones at "wholesale prices".

[Fred L]

I've hardcoded a few pages years ago but that's my knowledge of html/css/etc. but there must be software or something built in to vbulletin that flags or exterminates based on keywords such as nokia, cameraphone, nigeria etc as they are posted in the classifieds say.

I'm not one for dumping more work on qt or the mods but I don't want this place to become TOO rigid such as some sites are wrestling with now. But agree, this is not the place to talk about chrome vs black M cameras ;)

[David A. Goldfarb]

The moderators have been pretty good about catching the cellphone spammers as soon as they appear. If you see spam, you can report it by clicking on the red triangle with the black line on the left side of the post under the user's name and info, and the mods should receive an e-mail, so they can ban the spammer and delete the spam.

As for the policy, I don't think it has to be consistent in terms of universally allowing or forbidding non-LF ads. I think it's perfectly reasonable to delete non-LF ads from people who have no history on the forum, and to permit them for established LFF participants.

[JPlomley]

I would have missed getting a fairly rare black Leica M6 with 0.58 VF from a very reputable member were it not posted here (along with bits of LF kit). I have no problems with any analogue or digital associated equipment being listed on this forum by members in good standing. First time posters trying to off-load 20K worth of DSLR kit is another story.

[Joseph O'Neil]

I think since the buy & sell forum was closed off to anyone not logged in, a lot of the past issues have been solved.

Another thing to look at might be restricting posting of buy & sell ads until you've been registered here for a minimum of 30 or 60 days. That too I think would address some issues.

As for more than LF, well in addition to my 4x5s, I have 4 Nikons, three of them film, one a digital SLR, one Mamyia and I am looking seriously at an underwater 35mm (I've discovered snorkeling). With my new digital SLR I am looking now at decent used Nikon lenses - my old non AI 105mm works wonderfully on my new D40! :)

So I would not mind seeing more than LF. Even before my new Nikon DSLR, I often took a digital camera with me when I backpacked with my 4x5. If I wasn't sure of a shot, I would shot it first with my digital, then figure out if I wanted to pull out the 4x5. So in my case, having an "alternative" format helps me with my LF.

joe

[Don Hutton]

Don, as far as "...moderators soft-selling their scanning services..." - scanning is a LF related activity and it shouldn't be lumped in with the "selling other than LF" gear discussion. IMHO, scanning services is/are definitely LF-related and if there is somebody here who can offer to do it (and do it extremely well...) then, why not? Otherwise, it goes out to another facility that doesn't contribute to the viability of this forum.
Henry - I have no issue with scanning services being offered in the FS section - thats where it belongs. However, the "softselling" is going on outside of the FS section in regular postings - which is strictly prohibited (and in my opinion, should be). But, it's one of the moderators posting it, so it never seems to get picked up....

[jetcode]

Don, as far as "...moderators soft-selling their scanning services..." - scanning is a LF related activity and it shouldn't be lumped in with the "selling other than LF" gear discussion. IMHO, scanning services is/are definitely LF-related and if there is somebody here who can offer to do it (and do it extremely well...) then, why not? Otherwise, it goes out to another facility that doesn't contribute to the viability of this forum.


this gets into advertising services, selling magazines and prints, which are reoccurring sales, while selling a lens or camera is a single occurrence between two parties.

there could be a commercial section where member advertisers place a single ad for their services and no dialog takes place

[David Crossley]

<The LF community is extremely varied in its interests. The forum, while maintaining its focus, should allow these diverse interests and not be a straight jacket or a true believers cult. It has managed fine up to this point (flourished since I have been here AAMOF) without over regulation.>


I'm with Kirk and others on this. This forum (for the most part)is a pretty honorable bunch and "classifieds" worked reasonably well prior to the lockout.



David Crossley/Crossley Photography....

[eddie]

i enjoy selling and buying here. i will follow what ever rules are in place. i generally only trade in LF gear anyway. i would not object to seeing some other film related stuff for sale but i know how that can get out of hand.

a few months ago i had some non LF gear for sale and after thinking about it i decided this was not the place for it and offered it at APUG and photo.net i just figured it was a LF site.

thanks for the classified section! i look at it everyday.....first!

eddie

[Tom Westbrook]

What prompted the clean up a couple of days ago was that I did a search for common MF manufacturer names and found about 6-7 posts dealing exclusively with MF items. All but Don's were from relatively new members. I didn't feel that deleting the other 5 and leaving Don's was quite fair or defensible given the written policy, but I only closed his thread initially (there was a note from someone I wasn't sure he had seen) and didn't delete it right away. He asked me to delete it later in the day and I did.

We only started allowing FS ads with the switch to the current Forum software, and that was May 2006. We did change the rules a little about two months ago to include the red text and the bit about it being private (so listings don't appear in search engines on the 'net). otherwise its been the same.

The description in August 2006 read:

An "at your own risk" area for posting for sale & wanted to buy ads for large format items. No references to active external ads or auctions, please. Please prefix posts to indicate intent: "WTB", "FS" , "FT" (for trade), etc. Posts scroll off after 30 days. No dealers, please.

While what exactly constitutes a large format item may be something of a gray area, Mamiya 7's or RB/Z 67's, Hasselblad's (but Arc body is debatable), Pentax 67's or Canon digitals, for that matter, do not qualify as LF in my book. I think allowing MF or other clearly non-LF ads from any member dilutes the intent of the site and creates a slippery-slope condition where we'll end up with anyone being able to post anything they want for sale here (if you disagree, define the defensible enforcement boundaries for me).

[David A. Goldfarb]

I don't believe that private internet forums such as this one need to follow the rule of law and could just as well govern on the basis of ethos rather than strictly defined rules.

A policy which extends more privileges to established members than to new members is defensible on the grounds that we know that the established members have an investment in the community and aren't spammers or commercial dealers with no interest other than sales. If an advertisement contributes positively to the ethos of community among LF photographers by virtue of the fact that it comes from an established community member, then it can be allowed. If it contributes negatively by virtue of being spam or from someone not known as a member of the community, then it seems reasonable to exclude it, until the poster makes a positive contribution to the community.

[Capocheny]

Henry - I have no issue with scanning services being offered in the FS section - thats where it belongs. However, the "softselling" is going on outside of the FS section in regular postings - which is strictly prohibited (and in my opinion, should be). But, it's one of the moderators posting it, so it never seems to get picked up....

Hi Don,

I'll have to revisit some of those threads... but it seems to me that it's usually other members talking about sending their materials in for scanning (or suggesting to others that they send their images in for scanning) as opposed to the moderator in question actually soliciting materials for his scanning service.

For example, I've read where a discussion may be going on about some aspect of scanning and a contributing member may say, "Send it in to this scanning service." And, someone else may pipe in and suggest sending it in to x-moderator instead/as well.

IMHO, anytime you're an expert in a subject and you get into a discussion about that area of your expertise, it's virtually impossible not to be soft-selling. People naturally will gravitate toward you for your advice/service.

I'm in marketing myself and find that no matter how subtle I may try to be... it's just the nature of the beast that, when speaking with people about my area of knowledge, eventually, if it's of interest to them, they usually follow up to see what I can do for them.



this gets into advertising services, selling magazines and prints, which are reoccurring sales, while selling a lens or camera is a single occurrence between two parties.

there could be a commercial section where member advertisers place a single ad for their services and no dialog takes place

Joe,

I don't disagree with you here... perhaps, a separate section may be appropriate and I won't speak for the moderators on this.

But, ANY time you convey information on YOUR specific area of expertise (written or spoken)... that's soft-selling. People intuit that you know what you're talking about and respect your knowledge and experience in that specific area. Therefore, they'll naturally gravitate to you for further information and/or services.

So, the moderator in question would essentially have to stop posting ANY comments in the open forum in order not to be soft-selling his area of expertise. That wouldn't be a logical thing to request and it would certainly deprive the members of a valuable resource.


Don, Joe,

I hope I'm being clear on my meaning here but... if not, please PM me and we'll discuss it more, ok? :)

Thanks

Cheers

[Marko]

I think allowing MF or other clearly non-LF ads from any member dilutes the intent of the site and creates a slippery-slope condition where we'll end up with anyone being able to post anything they want for sale here (if you disagree, define the defensible enforcement boundaries for me).

Tom,

As others have noted already, I think it would be rare and very focused individual who had an interest in only one type and format of photography. If the purpose of the site is to build a community, as this site seems to be doing quite nicely, then it would be only natural to have a water-cooler (The Lounge), the corkboard (Announcements) and the flea-market (FS) which should be rather lose about the content that goes.

Would you rather have your members build their ties and relationships on your board or on someone else's? Besides, if someone decides to sell their 35mm or MF gear in order to buy some LF stuff, it would serve the purpose of the board, wouldn't it? :D

And as I suggested a few months ago, perhaps a good way to build a balance between security and flexibility would be to institute a membership threshold for posting in any of those three areas, be it the past activity or the membership duration or some mix of both?

[Deane Johnson]

When you start limiting formats too strictly, where do you stop? Someone is advertising a 6X9 back for a view camera. That's MF. Do you allow it? Seems to me it's of considerable interest to some LF members.

Certainly individuals who sign up and in their first post list a bunch of 35mm digital stuff aren't appropriate. But then, can't moderators just judge when those are inappropriate and zap them without getting to overburdened with new rules? Too many rules kill things.

[B.S.Kumar]

I think we are smart enough to figure out that if we wanted a Nokia, Jim Galli might not be the best person to ask :) Being a little flexible about the rules would not necessarily open the floodgates.

There were some LF related posts from newcomers in the last few weeks. A couple of them generated quite a bit of interest because of the nature of the items and/or pricing. So maybe the membership duration thing might not be good. Perhaps new members could have their first ten posts approved by the moderators before appearing on the forum? I don't know whether this would be possible within the existing software. Being a Nikon F, Canon 10D, rollfilm, 4x5 and Betterlight user, I certainly would like to see all kinds of stuff for sale, as long as it's not a Nokia :)

And if I had bought something from a member here, I would be more willing to buy a Nokia from him - on another forum, of course :D

Cheers,
Kumar

[cotdt]

i would still rather buy a Nikon F from a member on this board than risk getting ripped off on eBay.

[JPlomley]

i would still rather buy a Nikon F from a member on this board than risk getting ripped off on eBay

And that is exactly why I bought my M6 from a reputable member on this forum

[Hans Berkhout]

A good number of LF shooters use MF for travel. Others find their LF kit too heavy for hiking but can still carry an MF outfit; some of us are getting on in age and like to switch or try out MF rather than using their more cumbersome heavy LF etc etc. It's also the other way around - DSLR for the job, LF for the love of it.

I don't think you can look at/live with LF in isolation,that's just unrealistic. This can and should be reflected in the classified ads section of the LF forum. It's a challenge for the moderators but with some creativity a solution can be found, I would hope.

[Tom Westbrook]

The LF Forum does not live in isolation from the rest of the internet. People who want to discuss or advertise non-LF equipment are free to find appropriate resources elsewhere on the 'net. I don't think there's any lack of these places.

Members of any level are not free to open discussions about non-LF equipment and I feel the same rules should apply in the FS area. It simplifies moderation tasks and unless we get more moderation help its unfair to ask the mod's to police the area based on vague criteria like "established" or "reputable" membership status.

But, if you can define such criteria, we should just block access to the FS area to anyone who doesn't meet them. If it makes people nervous to have ads posted from new members for non-LF equipment, I'd guess the same nervousness applies to any ads from the same new members.

[Fred L]

Here's an idea and it involves honour on the part of the seller, something I don't think would be a problem here.

If one posts and then completes a sale of equipment other than LF, a token % (2,3,4 ?) is donated to the site ? Not sure what mechanisms would be needed but this could work, no ?

I can live with LF only ads but would really miss seeing MF posts in the classifieds as that's what I use when I'm not under the darkcloth.

Thanks for listening.

ps-for some reason, I don't seem to be able to edit previous posts

[David A. Goldfarb]

If it makes people nervous to have ads posted from new members for non-LF equipment, I'd guess the same nervousness applies to any ads from the same new members.

Not necessarily. LF equipment is more esoteric than, say, DSLRs or 35mm equipment, and requires a certain degree of specialized knowledge to advertise it convincingly. Even if someone just cuts and pastes a legitimate LF ad in an effort to commit fraud, there's a fair chance that someone on the forum will have seen the cut and pasted ad, and the seller will likely have to answer some questions about the item and demonstrate their legitimacy. It's much easier to commit fraud when the item for sale is a popular new DSLR with a broad and less knowledgeable market.

If you want to automate it, how about 3 months and 15 posts before being allowed to post in classifieds.

[David Millard]

One of the problems I have is the definition of "large format". I primarily use a 23 Linhof Technikardan and a 23 Linhof Technika, with 6x9 rollfilm backs. I also use a a 4x5 Chamonix, but with a Horseman 612 back. These are all view cameras, but by strict definition none of these are used as large format cameras. However, many of the lenses, accessories, and techniques employed are common to both the smaller and larger formats, which is one of the reasons I view this forum as a valuable resource.

[Marko]

Members of any level are not free to open discussions about non-LF equipment and I feel the same rules should apply in the FS area. It simplifies moderation tasks and unless we get more moderation help its unfair to ask the mod's to police the area based on vague criteria like "established" or "reputable" membership status.

Yes, but members of any level are free to open discussions in The Lounge, for example. Whether the goal is to enforce the mission statement without compromise (some would qualify it as being rigid) or it is simply to lighten the load on the moderators, doing it in one area of the site and not the other appears inconsistent and selective in nature, the very opposite of either of those two stated intents.

[Tom Westbrook]

David G: Both points duly noted.

David M: My personal definition of what is LF is pretty liberal, so anything with lens movements, even if it used smaller format film, would be fine. Any gray area item would be discussed among the mod's and open to appeal. Nothing that was removed recently fell into a gray area, though.

Marko, The Lounge is by policy not moderated, so the moderation rules don't apply there. It definitely lightens the load on the mods to pretty much ignore that area. I personally never look at it, except if we get a complaint.

[Marko]

Tom, I understand your points, just like I understand that is the owner of the board sets the policies, the moderators enforce them and the rest of us have a choice of participating or not.

My point is this: if the non-moderated Lounge, the way it is, presents no harm to this board, I really see no reason why For Sale area should. I very rarely buy or sell something there anyway, all I'm saying is that a little principle and common sense can go a long way. The same as the lack of it, in fact, just in the opposite direction... :)

[rls]

Marko, The Lounge is by policy not moderated, so the moderation rules don't apply there. It definitely lightens the load on the mods to pretty much ignore that area. I personally never look at it, except if we get a complaint.

Oh man...

I see "FS-non-LF" ads in the lounge in the near future. If a system doesn't work for people, the natural tendency is to work around it.

Sell the medium format and smaller stuff in one category, and the strictly LF gear (if it can be defined) in another.

I guess the grey area in the definition partly explains why I use more than just large format gear for making pictures!

Cheers, Rob

[BarryS]

I know the classifieds section is a relatively new feature on the board, but it's easy to underestimate how much traffic and activity it brings to the forum. I don't see any benefit to restricting listings by post status or membership length because this is the natural place for people to sell large format gear and many people aren't currently active in LF and that's precisely why they're selling. As always, caveat emptor--particularly with members with short or absent forum histories.

It's nice to be able to browse the classifieds for LF gear without having to wade through a mass of irrelevant ads, but like others here, I have wider photographic interests and like the idea of buying and selling within this community. Maybe we could have a separate classified forum for "other" photographic gear of interest to members. That way, those not interested could ignore (or exclude) the forum, but the rest of us would still benefit from trading gear within the community.