Ilford=$$$

[domenico Foschi]

This is a partial post I have recently posted in another thread and I thought that it would be interesting to read the opinion of other members regarding the prices of Ilford film and papers, but especially papers. Persoanlly I am growing frustrated with Ilford prices. I have already switched to Arista edu ultra for film and now I see myself forced to give up Ilford warmtone.
I just came back from Freestyle and I refuse to pay $ 209.00 + tax for a box of 50 sheets of 16x20. Two are the options: putting myself out of business by keeping buying it, or contributing to put them out of business.
I do not give a damn if they are committed to silver, their prices are not justifiable, if they think they are irreplaceable they are wrong.
Beautiful paper, but....

[davidb]

I've been a long time supporter of Ilford. I appreciate all of their efforts but I too find myself really questioning their prices lately.

Warmtone is simply not in my budget any longer.

I am wondering what is going to happen to Kentmere now that they own them too.

[Brian K]

I don't think that Ilford is raising prices to gouge their customers. I think the price increase is due to increased transportation and materials costs as well as the devaluation of the dollar versus nearly all the world currencies.

[roteague]

as the devaluation of the dollar versus nearly all the world currencies.

I think that is the biggest factor. The US dollar is now in the toilet, value-wise, and still sinking.

[Eric Biggerstaff]

I agree with Brian K, the value of the dollar and the rising cost of imports has a big role to play here. I would not be surprised to see prices increasing on other imported papers (Ok, all papers) if it is not already happening. I would guess that most have had price increases to one degree or another.

I love Ilford Warmtone paper and the price is getting a little out of my range. I print about 90% of my work on warmtone paper so I am about to start looking around for replacements. I understand there may be a couple of new papers coming out this summer, one based on the old Agfa formula, that could be interesting. I just need to get a bunch of small packages of different brands from Freestyle and test them to see if there is one I like as well as Ilford, which is by far my favorite.

[jetcode]

I just came back from Freestyle and I refuse to pay $ 209.00 + tax for a box of 50 sheets of 16x20. Two are the options: putting myself out of business by keeping buying it, or contributing to put them out of business.

yikes that does seem expensive but judging by your work I am certain you can pass the cost on to your clients and they won't even blink

[Merg Ross]

Domenico, I noted your post on the other thread and was going to reply there. As others have suggested, the US dollar may be the culprit.

There are less expensive papers available, and if they meet your technical and aesthetic standards, then fine. However, for me I will pay the extra to achieve the best print that I can make. My paper of choice is Ilford, and I ordered a few hundred sheets this morning. Perhaps expensive, but at least still available.

[tim atherton]

For one thing, B$W papers and film are only going to get more expensive as the supply grows smaller either way you look at it.

But that aside, costs have increased greatly - cost of oil has increased shipping costs from Europe significantly, raw materials costs have increased, manufacturing costs have increased along with energy costs even silver costs more.

And on top of the the US$ is extremely weak against the pound. Anything imported is going to keep seeing price increases as the dollar weakens and stays weak

[vinny]

Yep, i recently ran out of forte polygrade in some sizes and had to make a switch to something similar. I've used plenty of ilford in the past but I switched to rebranded forte polygrade after trying it once. The results were as good and much cheaper. I tried rebranded kentmere and i love it. This decision was partly due to the strike here and the fact that i sold 1 b+w print last year. Sometimes it's hard to justify to the wife and myself spending thousands every year on one of many expensive hobbies, ie fly fishing, snowboarding, camping.

[Jon Shiu]

I was recently given a few boxes of 11x14 and 16x20 Ilford Warmtone, but if I had to buy it, I still would but would save it for particuliar images and use something cheaper for everyday printing.

Jon

[davidb]

For the future record, here is a list of prices from Freestyle of 50 sheet boxes of 16x20 fiber paper:

Arista II Fine Grain Semi Matte - $105
Oriental Seagull VC - $140
Oriental Warmtone Smooth Gloss - $165
Kentmere Fineprint Neutral Glossy - $119
Ilford MGIV Glossy - $160
Kentmere Fineprint Neutral Semi Matte - $119
Ilford MGIV Matte - $160
Kentmere FIneprint Warmtone Semi Matte - $119
Ilford Warmtone MGIV Glossy= $209
Arista II VC Glossy - $105
Ilford Warmtone MGIV Semi Matte - $209

[Mark Sampson]

Well, I for one long for the days when my favorite paper was made across town and I got a discount to boot. But no more! Maybe the Seagull VC I ordered from Freestyle will turn out to be good- but I was starting to like the Ilford Warmtone. Perhaps the new "agfa" Multicontrast paper will be as good as the old, but I'm sure it will be spendy too. Is it time to like printing smaller?

[Andrew O'Neill]

I switched to rebranded forte polygrade after trying it once. The results were as good and much cheaper.

Could you tell me who is rebranding it? This was my favourite paper.

[walter23]

Traditional photography is going to get more expensive as it becomes increasingly a niche market.

[Ed Richards]

Am I missing something - you think $4.10 a sheet is expensive for 16x20 paper silver paper? The fact that you can get cheaper paper does not make $4.10 outrageous. It costs as much or more for good inkjet paper.

[vinny]

Could you tell me who is rebranding it? This was my favourite paper.

Who WAS rebranding it was freestyle under the name freestyle.edu
I was getting 16x20 50 sheet boxes for $70. They don't have it anymore.




As for inkjet material being the same or usually more than photographic paper, that's bullshit! It's overpriced like Stella Ortois!
How much silver does inkjet paper contain?
What's the shelf life of inkjet paper before it's fogged?
How many chemicals go into inkjet papers?
Do they need to be manufactured or shipped in total darkness?

[Jerzy Pawlowski]

I do not think cost of silver paper is a significant factor in whole process. May be it appears to be since it involves money spent during the final stage of work, the print. If we take all other expenses: time for picture taking, gas or other travel costs, cameras, film (including wasted sheets as well), darkroom equipment and materials costs, etc. I do not think paper takes any substantial position.
As Brian and others noted, increase in price should be considered as a decrease of money value, especially US$. If we take price of gold, which should be considered more as a standard of value than artificially created standard of papers (read: credit, good will of government and bank systems, and who knows what else), then all Ilford products are cheaper every year.

[tim atherton]

As for inkjet material being the same or usually more than photographic paper, that's bullshit! It's overpriced like Stella Ortois!
How much silver does inkjet paper contain?
What's the shelf life of inkjet paper before it's fogged?
How many chemicals go into inkjet papers?
Do they need to be manufactured or shipped in total darkness?

well, for one think, good inkjet paper is often made of a much better substrate than most photo paper (have you priced out good quality watercolour paper from someone like Arches recently?)

They also have plenty of work in the coatings

[Merg Ross]

Jerzy, very good points, I could not agree more.

There is much talk on this forum about equipment, some of it very expensive equipment. And, there are those who bemoan the cost of silver paper. If you choose to use the silver process, be prepared to pay the price, or find an alternative. After all, "the print is the performance", to borrow a line from my friend.


http://www.mergross.com

[domenico Foschi]

Jerzy, very good points, I could not agree more.

There is much talk on this forum about equipment, some of it very expensive equipment. And, there are those who bemoan the cost of silver paper. If you choose to use the silver process, be prepared to pay the price, or find an alternative. After all, "the print is the performance", to borrow a line from my friend.


http://www.mergross.com

Merg, if you don't like to read people bemoaning about this, please keep it for yourself.
I don't care who your friend was, I know what a print is.

[Dave Parker]

Well it seems to me, that road goes both ways..

Myself personally don't see any problem with $4.10 a sheet, but please don't take that wrong, one thing I have never had a problem with, is the cost of my photography, I simply pass on the increases to my clients...

As one of the manufactures in traditional photography..looking at transportation as well as material costs and a shrinking dollar, I can't see it going anywhere but up, when you have a shrinking market base and rising costs, that means increasing prices to stay in business.

domenico, I understand what your saying, and hope you find an alternative that works for you..

Dave

[evan clarke]

I think that is the biggest factor. The US dollar is now in the toilet, value-wise, and still sinking.

Silver is almost $18/oz. It was $6 not that long ago...EC

[jnantz]

too bad we can't all petition photowarehouse to start buying
master rolls of paper and film like they used to ..
times like this i am really missing their rebranded papers and films
( and their costs )

209 for a box of paper is a lot ...
so is 100+ euros a tank of fuel :(

[MIke Sherck]

The cummulative effects of rising commodity prices (silver, paper, wood products of all kinds, etc.) coupled with the weak US Dollar ($1.50 per Euro, today,) and falling demand. As some wit once wagged, the amazing thing isn't how well the bear dances, it's that it dances at all.

I recall Edward Weston, no wealthy man by any means, mentioning once or twice in his Daybooks how he wanted to make another print of a particular negative but couldn't afford the paper.

I'm pained by the increasing cost of materials of all kinds, from film to paper to chemistry, and the cost of travel to get beyond my local neighborhood, but I will find a way to photograph. I will use less film and paper, if I can't afford more, and try to make each negative and each print do more. If I can't drive somewhere to photograph, I'll photograph what I can reach by walking. But I will photograph.

Mike

[PViapiano]

$209 for 50 sheets of 16x20 is like paying $52 for 200 sheets of 8x10...same surface area.

If you look at it that way, it's a steal no matter who manufactures it.

[neil poulsen]

I don't think that Ilford is raising prices to gouge their customers. I think the price increase is due to increased transportation and materials costs as well as the devaluation of the dollar versus nearly all the world currencies.

This makes sense to me. It hurts, though.

I would hate to think of B&W photography without Ilford. I can't believe that they are gouging us or anything. I would think (hope) that any extra they are making is going towards their long term security.

[clay harmon]

Uh, I think it is like paying $209 for 200 sheets of 8x10.


$209 for 50 sheets of 16x20 is like paying $52 for 200 sheets of 8x10...same surface area.

If you look at it that way, it's a steal no matter who manufactures it.

[domenico Foschi]

$209 for 50 sheets of 16x20 is like paying $52 for 200 sheets of 8x10...same surface area.

If you look at it that way, it's a steal no matter who manufactures it.

Paul, music and MAth should go hand in hand..:)

[PViapiano]

(laughs embarassingly and self-flagellates before the forum)

See what happens when you post before your morning espresso?

I'm in a "dividing by 4" mood today...

Domenico, I'm playing Verdi this afternoon, so I better straighten myself out before the maestro does!

[KEK]

I can understand the paper going up due to the value of the dollar , raw material costs rising etc.
But I don't understand why(i'm sure there is a valid reason) the price of paper goes up as you get bigger.
An example is Kentmere's 8 x 10 it's $1.26 for 2 sheets. Equal surface area is a 16 x 20 that costs $2.36 per sheet. These are based on 100 sheet quantities for 8 x 10 and 50 sheet quantities for the 16 x 20 so i know there is an extra box and bag for the 16 x 20 but that seems like a pretty big jump in price. If you go to mural rolls from Kentmere the price goes up even further.

[cotdt]

Ilford developers are also getting more expensive, like DD-X.

[BarryS]

The price seems proportionate--doesn't it? $0.63 per 8x10 and $2.36 for a 16x20 that could be cut into four 8x10's for a cost of $0.59 per 8x10. The larger size is slightly less expensive per square inch.

[KEK]

By god there are 4 8 x 10 in in a 16 x 20 aren't there. I'd like to say it's getting late in the day but it's not.

[BarryS]

:) No worries, I have plenty of my own neurocognitively-impaired days.

[Toyon]

Ilford's increases are entirely in-line with the increased costs of raw materials caused by the huge growth in China's economy, the lowering of the dollar's value and their investment in new technologies. Having Ilford remain on a profitable footing and continuing to invest in technology is a very worthwhile goal. If you want bargain film and paper go with a firm that uses 50 year old equipment and invests little in environmental or quality controls.

[Merg Ross]

Domenico, it should not be your role to admonish those who contribute to this excellent forum. Your reply to my post lacked the spirit of thoughtful dialogue. Perhaps you think otherwise.

[domenico Foschi]

"And, there are those who bemoan the cost of silver paper."
Merg, you started by belittling my complain about the cost of paper.
Even though you didn't mention my name, it was obvious it was directed to myself as well, maybe particularly, since I started the thread.
The term bemoaning has a sarcastic tone, which is not what I look forward in this excellent forum.
You wrote negatively enough to get a reaction for me.
That part of your post wasn't a positive contribution, I hope you recognize that.
I am going back in my darkroom now,

[eddie]

i am with you domenico foschi! i noticed it in sept! read this (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=29009&highlight=paper)

now i am going back to the darkroom!

[Jon Shiu]

Calumet has Ilford Warmtone FB 16x20 50 sheets for 185.99

Jon

[davidb]

Bostick and Sullivan are reporting a 5% to 10% increase on Ilford products as of March 1st.

[Turner Reich]

There's nothing like a good healthy price increase, after all the dollar is 150 to one euro and the price of a gallon of regular is 3.50.

I would like to see the price of materials increased 100% to start so the field can get weeded out. I don't have clients and just make prints for myself now. Nothing to pass on, just fun in the darkroom.

$10.00 a sheet for film and $20.00 a sheet for paper and I'm still going. With no other hobbies it's OK to spend a lot. If that Azolikepaper comes out it will be higher than expected so hold on to your chairs it's going to be a bumpy ride.

Ilford China will raise the prices even more, for those who think instant coffee and tea ruined a good cup of brewed tea, think of what a billion Chinese in a developing country will do to prices.

[John Bowen]

Bostick & Sullivan has a post on APUG where they have a sale (only good thru 2/29/08, I think) on Ilford instock products.

Check out the details on APUG