Does this say something about the LF market?

[Doug Dolde]

Or the economy? Or the tiny dent?

A 110mm SSXL went for $899

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250204803522&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=015

[Ron Marshall]

All of the above, but mainly the dent.

[Ted Harris]

Also the seller. Adorama's ratings are often optimistic.

[Sheldon N]

At $899, it's still an expensive lens.

I'd guess that most buyers would rather spend $200-300 more and get a lens that will work with filters.

[Eric Leppanen]

Another SS110XL sold 20 minutes earlier that same day (without a dent and sold by a well established seller with perfect feedback record) for $1507.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=360013717806&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=023

I wouldn't read anything into it. Damaged goods (even slightly damaged) usually take a severe hit in value, especially in a premium product like the SS110XL which is expensive to repair.

[steve barry]

agreed, i would not spend that money for a lens i couldn't put a filter on, regardless of how good a deal it is/was.

[Marko]

Yeah, it says that the LF market is still in much better shape than the MF one.

I just picked up a very late Mamiya 645 ProTL with AE prism, two lenses, two magazines and a bunch of extras, all in great shape for much less than that. And I figure I will still have money left after I pick up the third lens one of these days.

[Nathan Potter]

I'd be nervous about the rim dent. Not so much for the inability to use a filter; that can probably be bent out or filed off. But the shock from the dent may have jarred the glass elements ever so slightly out of alignment. It don't take much to reduce the performance.

Nate Potter

[Asher Kelman]

I'd be nervous about the rim dent. Not so much for the inability to use a filter; that can probably be bent out or filed off. But the shock from the dent may have jarred the glass elements ever so slightly out of alignment. It don't take much to reduce the performance.

Nate Potter
I wonder who can strip down and realign optics? Recoating would be magic!

asher

[davidb]

I would think the price had more to do with the seller than the condition of the lens.

[QT Luong]

When I bought my 110, I paid about $1100 new from a store in Hong-Kong.

[BradS]

Yeah, I looked at this lens and thought about it for about two micro seconds. That dent is a definite deal killer - especially for a highly complex lens design such as the 100 SS XL. It has nothing to do with a filter not fitting and everything to do with the alignment - or lack there of. It seems all too probable that a little "ding" like that may have knocked the (aspheric?) elements out of alignment. The dropped lens may well be a stinker.

[Ted Harris]

QT, I actually paid a bit less than that new but we are talking a few years ago, right? A time when the value of the dollar was much higher than it is today.

[Frank Petronio]

Adorama doesn't have the best reputation for used eBay gear either. I'd trust a well know forum member who told the ding didn't affect the image quality but no way would I trust a big impersonal store like that.

[mark edward randle]

I wonder who can strip down and realign optics? Recoating would be magic!

asher
I think i may know someone here in the UK. There`s a man called malcolm Taylor, he restores the Leicas for the Leica factory museum. He can regrind lenses, recoat or add coatings etc etc. Bit of a genius really, he even managed to free the soft focus mechanism on my Dallmeyer 4D. ........mark

[venchka]

Focal Point in Colorado has a good reputation.

http://www.focalpointlens.com/fp_intro.html

[audioexcels]

Another SS110XL sold 20 minutes earlier that same day (without a dent and sold by a well established seller with perfect feedback record) for $1507.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=360013717806&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=023

I wouldn't read anything into it. Damaged goods (even slightly damaged) usually take a severe hit in value, especially in a premium product like the SS110XL which is expensive to repair.

That was the highest priced 110XL I have ever seen watching Ebay and this lens for the last 2-3 years.

[audioexcels]

1) Lens has a dent that isn't exactly a small dent. As mentioned already, it had to have been dropped or something had to have happened to make it bend in that much. It takes up quite a large amount of that barrel. So as another said it, who knows what kind of performance it will produce, though it should be ok as lenses can withstand abuse;).

2) So lets take "any" normal situation. An LF shooter is more or less going to use a filter, screw in shade, center filter, etc. If nothing is ever threaded onto the lens, a-ok granted the lens' performance is a-ok. But lets say the "majority" will want to thread something onto that lens at some point or another. Can anyone tool that barrel out without leaving marks on the lens? as soon as that thing is put back into as normal a position as possible=good deal of money for this labor, it surely will have marks=lowers re-sale value to what the person paid or less.

Whoever bought the lens basically is looking at something like $900 plus shipping plus $300 to get the dent out and will be able to sell it for $800-$900 in the future as "had a dent, but fixed properly" or has a "severe marking in one place but does not affect performance/filters fitting"...in other words, the buyer has zero chance of having anything but a loss in what he/she paid. Now if the lens was $700 or so, I would have picked it up, shot with it to confirm functionality or sent it to someone to do this for me, then keep or return and use it without filters, but have $700 worth of a ton of IC on 5X7 and 4X5.

Adorama are A$$holes if you ask me. I asked a question about this lens and said exactly this, "if the lens does not sell on auction, will you take $800 for it since you will not have to worry about re-listing and end of auction fees." Yes, this is higher than the $700 I now feel it is worth but none-the-less, this was their response, "It is SILLY to ask us through an EBAY forum to END the auction and SELL it to you so EBAY does not get their fees. So the answer is NO."

[Jiri Vasina]

I bought once from Adorama and will not buy again. As stated previously, the rating is way too optimistic, description sometimes omitting some important points.

If I were buying such an expensive lens (almost $1k, I'd surely buy a good one, adding some 20-30% more. If I wanted a deal on something cheap, I'd hunt for a lens in the sub-$500 category, possibly sub-$300).

Based on experience.

[Joseph O'Neil]

Another way to look at things - take a very expensive (when new) 35mm or MF lens, something with a "small dent" in it, and see what the current ebay prices are.

I find even dented/damaged LF lenses and cameras still sell for a higher price (percentage wise, compared to new prices) than good to excellent condition 35mm and MF gear. 35mm rangefinder gear is perhaps the sole exception to that condition. So it seems to be a good thing for LF in general.

[Ted Harris]

So lets take "any" normal situation. An LF shooter is more or less going to use a filter, screw in shade, center filter, etc. If nothing is ever threaded onto the lens, a-ok granted the lens' performance is a-ok. But lets say the "majority" will want to thread something onto that lens at some point or another.

The rest of your comment is right on but I think the above is something of an overtatement. In fact, I think you will find that LF shooters use filters, screw in shades, etc. much less than smaller format shooters. As for Center Filters, very few situations call for a center filter on a 110 SSXL

[ic-racer]

A little OT from the original post but I thought I would share some experiences with lens dents.

I had read of worries related to some kind of 'lens misalignment' caused by dropping a lens, but I have never heard a good explanation of how this might happen. I also have, in 30 years, never seen documented evidence (USAF charts or comparison negatives) that demonstrate the phenomenon.

Although I usually buy LN or New equipment, I thought a dented $125 lens would be a good companion for a $5.00 view camera.

I own the lens shown and here are some comments:

1) Perhaps the filter ring of a lens for a 35mm camera can be 'pounded out' or easily straightened, but the thick aluminum on a lens like this is extremely recalcitrant to being bent back into shape. I imagined all that was needed was a few good whacks with a hammer and a 2x4, but all I got were some dents and splinters in the wood:eek: . So I left it alone after that.

2) I am not aware of any 'wide angle' lens hood that is made in the "screw in" size to fit this lens.

3) Filters: personally I don't use them much at all for B&W but am always open to experimenting with things to increase the complexity of the whole tone reporduction cycle called "B&W Photography" :)

4) This lens was tested on 4x5 and 8x10 cameras. The edge and center sharpness was excellent for all my purposes (mostly pictoral/landscape etc.). The glass on this particular lens was pristine, no cleaning marks or fungus.

5) Although cosmetics are important to me, I can say that no one that has seen me out in the field with the Century has commented on the lens dents. (Kudos to the high school photography students that one day recognized the Century as a "Camera"...)

Bottom line: Though 'your milage may vary,' in my experience, multiple lens dents turned out to be a good deal.

[John O'Connell]

1) Perhaps the filter ring of a lens for a 35mm camera can be 'pounded out' or easily straightened, but the thick aluminum on a lens like this is extremely recalcitrant to being bent back into shape. I imagined all that was needed was a few good whacks with a hammer and a 2x4, but all I got were some dents and splinters in the wood:eek: . So I left it alone after that.

Ditto. I've tried to straighten out a dented Schneider cell, too. Not easy.

I also think that the lens is probably less affected than people who only use new, pristine gear would imagine.

[Ted Harris]

John,

Most of the time you and ic-racer are probably right. Both the front and rear rims of modern LF lenses are relatively soft metal and can dent fairly easily. OTOH, I recall I lens that hit the ground less than gracefully some years ago as the wind blew over the tripod; dusted everything off and exposed a sheet of film which immediately told me something had gotten knocked out of kilter inside the lens. I sent it off to Schneider and they realigned it.

[Brian K]

I wouldn't buy that lens out of fear that the elements may have become misaligned, and also that there were lens separation issues with the early productions models which could even exacerbate that problem more.

Small dings in filter threads can be fixed, even by yourself.

http://www.micro-tools.com/store/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=LV1

[CG]

I had read of worries related to some kind of 'lens misalignment' caused by dropping a lens, but I have never heard a good explanation of how this might happen. I also have, in 30 years, never seen documented evidence (USAF charts or comparison negatives) that demonstrate the phenomenon.

I'll leave the charts to someone better able to supply documentation, but the precisely aligned spaced and centered construction of the SS 110 (or of any modern high performance lens) is critical.

Lenses are mechanically constructed and various parts can be misaligned by impact (or by poor assembly for that matter). I've heard Linhof was choosy and got the "pick of the litter" when selecting glass that would have their name appended. If simple variations of assemby can be worth note, imagine the fun that happens when a lens is subjected to enough impact the dent the mount.

[ic-racer]

various parts can be misaligned by impact...

How do you know this? I guess that is what I am asking; what is the mechanism by which an impact (which leaves only visible damage of a dented filter ring) leads to a misalignment of the optics? Like, what exactly moves or bends to cause the misalignment? Again, I am talking about a lens that does not rattle and only had a dent in its filter ring. I just have never seen evidence of this misalignment following a dented filter ring. It would be difficult to prove also, because, as you pointed out, not all lenses come from the factory perfectly centered. You would have to have tested the lens before and after the impact.

Maybe they can do it on "Mythbusters," test some LF lenses before and after a mild impact...:)

[Jim Jones]

An impact that can dent the filter ring can also warp the shutter housing.

[Patrik Roseen]

Is it not so that an impact causing a dent will have had lots of energy consumed by the dent itself, whereas an impact that did not cause any dents will have had all the energy go directly into the parts of the shutter or lens elements. Similar to a modern car crash.

I think there are a lot more lenses sold out there which have had impacts that do not show up as a dent and those could even be more serious.

[domenico Foschi]

Now, looking at that lens and many others I have seen and had:( , wouldn't it be time for the lens manufacturers to incorporate a replaceable protective "shell" in the front part of the lens to ensure that the filter thread wouldn't be damaged in case of an accident?
Or to actually thread the shell itself to accept filters?

[ic-racer]

An impact that can dent the filter ring can also warp the shutter housing.
True, but the shutter housing is not part of the lens.;)