Film holder manufacturer

[robert]

I'm posting this link to a conversation that is ongoing at the apug forum. I recently ordered and paid for custom built filmholders from AWB and the workmanship and serviced I received was downright shameful. Now I'm out over 2000.00 and I wouldn't want to see this happen to anybody. Now I'll try to post a link to the conversation.http://www.apug.org/forums/forum187/46032-film-holder-question.htmlhttp://www.apug.org/forums/forum187/46032-film-holder-question.html

[robert]

Apparently the link I tried didn't work. If anyone knows how to insert a link to this conversation please do so. It is under the Ultra large Format Camera and Accessories section. Thanks, Robert

[Peter K]

Apparently the link I tried didn't work. If anyone knows how to insert a link to this conversation please do so. It is under the Ultra large Format Camera and Accessories section. Thanks, Robert
Possible this link works better
http://www.apug.org/forums/forum187/46032-film-holder-question.html

Peter K
(not over 8x10" :D )

[robert]

Thank you Peter. Robert

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

I'm posting this link to a conversation that is ongoing at the apug forum. I recently ordered and paid for custom built filmholders from AWB and the workmanship and serviced I received was downright shameful. Now I'm out over 2000.00 and I wouldn't want to see this happen to anybody. Now I'll try to post a link to the conversation.http://www.apug.org/forums/forum187/46032-film-holder-question.htmlhttp://www.apug.org/forums/forum187/46032-film-holder-question.html

For what is worth Robert, I ordered a couple of S&S holders for my Wisner 12x20 and they did not fit perfectly. I had to shave both the lower and upper edges and as with yours, the lip on the holder for the groove was too thick so I also deepened the grove. This is a simple operation with a router.

I understand your frustration and you being upset for having paid for custom work that was not delivered. But at this stage I would say grab the holders and back and send them to Ritter to be fixed. I cannot access APUG's gallery so I am unable to see the pics and maybe offer a solution to your problem that you can do at home. I get the feeling that if you have a friend who is a wood worker he can probably fit the holders to the camera easily.

The question about the septum and having 3 sheets fit into the groove, well that is just shoddy manufacturing, if you are able to focus correctly then this also can be fixed by sliding and gluing a wedge into each rail. This will require more careful work and someone who is really good with a band saw to make a wedge thin enough to fit in between the septum and the rail.

[robert]

Hi Jorge, This is an AWB holder. It has an inner rib like a normal holder but it also has a top rib or rib handle that snaps over the back when the inner locks in. The problem is in order to seat the inner rib where it is suppose to go the top rib handle slides inside the camera holding the inner rib away from its groove and not allowing it to seat. So the problem is the distance between the top rib handle and the rib. This is why I sent a holder and the camera back to him so he could get the fit right. Now in order to mill enough off the top rib handle to clear the back he would have to mill right through the screws that mount the rib plate on the holder. The other fix would be to widen the rib groove in the back another 3/16" which would mean I would have to pull it up that far off the bottom of the back to get it to seat properly. This is why I had paid to have custom holders built to avoid these fixes. I've owned a couple of Wisners now, and Like you I'm well aware of the variables in his cameras. That is why I paid to have custom holders built. .....But aside from that, it is good to see you post. I'm still doing brush development that you taught me years ago. Yeah I know it takes a little longer but the results are hard to beat. Robert

[robert]

Jorge, Ritter does great work. All you have to do is ask any Wisner owner. We've hooked up more than once. But have you seen his new cameras? Damn talk about innovative. Sandy King is now hauling around a 20x24 on his back that weighs 25lb. Now that is thinking outside the box. Robert

[CP Goerz]

As I mentioned in the pervious post I get the same amount of 'slop' in my holders. It truly varies from one to the other so what you may consider 'slop' is just standard. This just isn't AWB holders its Wisner vintage and Mint as well as 'used to death' Korona types too. I haven't used an S+S but other folks mentioned the same..maybe this is also true of Chamonix but one of those owners will have to pipe in at some point.



CP Goerz

[robert]

CP, In your post on the other forum you said your AWB holders were the best fitting holders you own. ( unless that wasn't your post and if that is the case I apologize) I've also owned various manufacturer holders and I've never owned one that allowed me to load 4 sheets of film and allow enough film sag/bow that the film is at the point of falling out of the film rail. I would be tickled to death to have them to allow me to load two sheets of film. That I could live with. But 4 sheets is hardly acceptable. I own some Wisner holders and I assure you the film gates fit twice as good as these. Robert

[sanking]

[QUOTE=Jorge Gasteazoro;308345]

I understand your frustration and you being upset for having paid for custom work that was not delivered. But at this stage I would say grab the holders and back and send them to Ritter to be fixed. I cannot access APUG's gallery so I am unable to see the pics and maybe offer a solution to your problem that you can do at home. I get the feeling that if you have a friend who is a wood worker he can probably fit the holders to the camera easily.

/QUOTE]


I second Jorge's recommendation. Send the back and holders to Richard Ritter for the fix. Richard does EX+ work, and usually with a fast turn-around. And his prices for repairs and modifications are very reasonable. I recommend RR to everyone who asks about these type of modifications as he is, IMO, the best in the business.

As for the slop in way the film fits into the grooves, I would not worry so much about it. DOFocus (depth of focus), which is different from DOField (depth of field) is very great with ULF equipment.

Sandy King

[CP Goerz]

Hey R,

Yep, as other posters mentioned in both sites they too have as much 'slop' too. For supercritical use or when I know for a fact I'm shooting down etc I pop a tiny little 1cm square of double sided tape in the middle. I use the same trick for 8x10 holders too and it works out just fine.


CP Goerz

[robert]

Sandy, I know the fix will have to come after market. I think what really bothers me the most is the fact that I sent my back and holder just so I didn't have to deal with fixes the altered my camera and paid extra for that. Then receive a product that not only doesn't fit my rib locks but also allows for enough slop in the film gate that I can almost load a glass plate.. is one thing. But to then be told to go F--k myself when I asked for things to be made right, strikes a chord in me that just doesn't sit very well. Maybe I'm just to old school where it was pounded into me to always do the right thing. I've already reached the conclusion that Brubaker will not make right on this. I just hope others think twice before they decide to pay some of the highest prices on the market for custom fit holders and receive the kind of service and treatment that I've been privy to. Robert

[robert]

cp, It is amazing how your position has changed from before you knew these were AWB holders. Before you claimed them to be the holy grail of film holders. Now you claim that loading 4 sheets of film is common place. And it should be adapted as a standard for all ULF holders, using double sided tape as a fix all. I'm talking about loading 4 sheets of film and I can assure you that I have been shooting large format and ULF for quite a few years so please show me the posts from the people that claim their film gates are this large and they are happy with it or even accept it as a standard, because they are not coming up on my computer. Robert

[Rob_5419]

It sounds like an utter horror story. Is it possible that manufacturer isn't able to guage such close tolerances, unless he uses a C&C machine or a laser guided cutter to get the tolerances just right?

It sounds like your problem would be resolved by using aluminium sheath-like septums in the holders as they are (once the rib-lock issue is resolved). It's horrendous thinking about the custom work you've paid for.... us whole plate photographers are used to all of these mismatching rib lock issues; variable thickness plate holders and bookform discrepancies in ground-glass and film plane focussing. But we're paying almost 1/10th of what you have.

Do you not have a financial ombudsman or a consumer organisation to arbitrate?

[robert]

Rob, I do have a lawyer. What we are talking about here is probably a difference of over .021. I could probably get almost that close with a hacksaw blade. I have a negative that probaly shows no more than .006 of carry of the film behind the film rail. And this was shot with the camera level. I haven't even tried a forward tilt with the camera due to the fact that the rib lock won't even seat so no matter how I shoot the film is fogged. It wouldn't surprise me if the film fell out of the film rail with a forward tilt. I've talked so much about this that I just want to go have a glass of single malt and chalk it all up to experience. (But I will try a forward tilt with a sheet of exposed film) I just hope I can help some other person from making the same mistake. Robert

[CP Goerz]

Hey R,

Where do I change my position? The AWB holders are the best as far as I'm concerned, others have their faves, there is no conflict. Some like Wisner cameras, some like Dorffs...can't we all just get along? ;-)

[Rob_5419]

Robert,

you're starting to frighten me. You have a lawyer for this????

Crikes. I've never needed a lawyer (but then I don't live in the States).

Given the riblock dilemma, can you then adhere lightseal foam on the exterior of the holder along where the gap fails to close off the light, so that you don't get the light leak in the interim?

Are your negatives flying out when you whip out the darkslide to make an exposure?
If the negative is just warping inside the holder, then would double sided sticky tape across the centre of the back of the emulsion sort that out?

I know it's not what you paid your money to get.....just wondering if its usable at all in the meantime...

[robert]

Cp, You most certainly are entitled to your opinion. And I'm, entitled to mine. I don't know how old your AWB holders are. And one of my agruments to Alan was the fact that I was comparing these new holders to his older ones, which were very close tolerance. His claim to me is that his holders have been, and still are, all sent out with the same tolerance. That is a downright lie. And I have evidence to prove it. But this argument is not between you and I. I just want to point out what is going on with the holders that are currently being produced. At least this is the case, with the 4 holders I have, they all have this kind of play/slop. I know for a fact at one time they were probably one of the best filmholders on the market. I shot with AWB holders before I ever decided to spend that kind of money on a film holder. But recently since ordering his holders ( And I use recently very loosely because I waited over a year on these holders) and after being treated the way I have, this is even no longer just about the the holders..it is about the character of the persons involved. Robert

[D. Bryant]

Robert,

you're starting to frighten me. You have a lawyer for this????

.
Rob,

So what would you suggest Robert do?

I don't know about you but 2K for a pile of junk is a serious problem for me.

If the manufacturer won't deal forthrightly then I think getting a lawyer involved isn't a bad idea.

Perhaps having their name dragged through the mud on this forum might be enough, but if it's not what should one do?

Don Bryant

[Rob_5419]

I really don't know.

In at the 65 years I've been around this planet, I've always found a way to resolve things through dialogue and trying to consider why the other person might be coming across as a plonker (except for my little brother who I beat up regularly, but then I was only 6).

[robert]

I've tried dialog and reasoning with Brubaker. In our last phone conversation he said to return the filmholders but he would only refund 75% of my money. I said since I had ordered custom built holders and the problems are a manufacturing one why should I only receive a partial refund. I then even offered to meet him half way on the other 25% of my money. He said he would think about it and call me back. Well he never called back and he won't take any of my calls. He did send an email and I quote " Robert, I am not obligated to give back your money at all. You can keep the holders. I do not want your business at all with you." unquote. Robert

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

I think we all agree that trying to resolve the problem without lawyers is best. It seems AWB does not care and in fact is counting on the 2K to be too small for you to sue him. Take him to small claims court, I don't know how it works on out of state claims and maybe one of the lawers can give you advice, but I would cause him as much grief as I could. There is a line where you go from being a nice guy to being stupid....don't cross it!.. :)

[robert]

Jorge, I will be seeing my attorney on Monday. I just did the entire firms portraits in pt/pd so I will be delivering them to him on Monday. They owe me money (now that's rare for a law firm to owe me...that's what I call a radical role reversal) So I will ask for a little free legal advice. I have no idea how out of state claims as small as these are handled. I hope as a consumer I have some rights though. Robert

[robert]

For those who are not on apug. Here are some pics of the AWB holders. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8789&stc=1&d=1200180302http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8790&stc=1&d=1200180330http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8791&stc=1&d=1200180355

[robert]

The first pic shows 4 sheets of film being loaded into the holder. The second pic shows how the top rib that is suppose to snap over the camera back is inside of the back holding the inner rib away from seating. The last pic showing how the double rib is made. Now if he would try to mill that top rib away enough to allow it to clear he would be milling through the rib plate mounting screw. The other fix would be to widen the groove in my camera back about another 3/16". Then I would have to pull the holder up that much off the bottom to get it to seat. This is why I paid for custom built holders. If I wanted to remill my camera back I could have went with any holder manufacturer. But to have this film gate with so much slop that allows you to load 4 sheets of film is just not acceptable. I can put in 1 sheet of film and pull the darkslide and there is enough film sag/bow that it is close to falling out of the film rails. Robert

[Colin Graham]

Did he ever give a reason for all the slop? And for not even bothering to check if the holders fit the back you sent him? Seems pretty crappy.

[CP Goerz]

Is it true that you have two film backs for the camera you mention and that Alan DID custom fit the holders to the back you sent him? Isn't it also true that you have had the holders for eight months and only now are complaining about them?? After eight months....for custom made parts? What other business do you know that allows such practice? The fact that he even offered you a 75% refund on your order that can't be used on ANY other camera except yours is a pretty darn good deal...just what other makers of ANYTHING custom take orders back...name just one..PLEASE!!!




Is it also true that Alan took returns for some other custom work you asked him to do and he gave you a full refund? Is it normal practice for you to return custom items over and over?



Your constant posting to yourself is just a bit too much of a 'one-man-screaming' show, go to your lawyers and take it from there. If you aren't going to do anything then leave it at that, if you are I'm sure your lawyer will tell you to keep quiet till the show is over.


I know for a fact that Alan has been burned by WAYYYY too many people asking for custom holders and parts that can in no possible way be used for any other camera except the one it was made for...only to have some guy who either measured badly or didn't realize that two Wisners backs that are identical wasn't a given. Are both of your backs the exact same size? Careful how you answer that one!



Just so there is no subterfuge and only transparency on my part...I do know Alan and was the first person to give him the gig of making holders for my 8x20 camera about ten or fifteen years ago. I do count him as a friend, a good one.


CP Goerz

[robert]

Colin he claims that all his holders have this much slop. But that's a lie because I have compared these to some of his 12x20 and 7x17 holders and they are twice as tight as these. What he said he did was take all the measurments off the back and then sent my camera-back back to me. I had to wait over a year on the holders so I had to have my camera-back in order to be able to use the camera with the holders I already had. I couldn't let him keep my camera-back that long. But if he had wanted to make a final check I would have been more than happy to send it to him again. I even offered to but he said it wasn't necessary. Robert

[CP Goerz]

As for everyone calling Alans holders sloppy, why don't you all take the time to check whichever maker of holder you have and see what the result you have. Be honest! Many keen LF and ULF shooters I happen to have had some dealings with have posted mentioning that the number of sheets that can fit isn't unusual, if it isn't unusual then its the NORM.


When you shoot ULF and such sized formats you are in the realm of custom made items...not just Alan but EVERY manufacturer. You can C+C a holder but due to the very nature of the materials you will have differences. One holder may be a tight fit in Washington but be perfect here in CA. We aren't talking about plastic Fidelity/Lisco holders here we are talking wood with all its wonderful natural properties. So on and so forth, I have holders that can fit four or five sheets all the way down to a holder where I can barely fit one sheet in and by far I prefer the four or five sheet fit holder to load than the one sheet only holder that has ruined about a dozen sheets of film in its lifetime no matter how careful I am with it.

CP Goerz

[Colin Graham]

I made the slots on my holders 1/64" - one sheet of film fits in comfortably but there's only room for one sheet + a tad for seasonal movement. I can't imagines 4 sheets fitting it the slot or there being a reason for so much slop- sounds like it's encroaching on 1/16". Seems like he'd give a reason other than all of them being like this. Odd.

BTW, I drove across country with mine the winter I made them, changing film in heated hotel rooms every night after shooting in all conditions during the day- rainforest, desert, mountains. Never had any binding, so I cant imagine a need for that much slop due to wood movement.

[CP Goerz]

Amazing, perhaps you should get into the holder making business so we can all enjoy such tight fitting holders. Two sheets of film can fit into 1/64th" though. That kind of measurement is better than AWB, Fidelity, Shen, Chamonix and certainly better than any Wisner holder I have ever used and is probably better than S+S, clearly your calling is in the film holder area.

[Colin Graham]

It's not amazing though, that's the whole point. You give a quarter crank on the z-axis instead of a full crank. I'm just curious why holders would need so much extra room. If they dont need that extra room, then it's slop and Robert has a legitimate gripe.

[CP Goerz]

Maybe we should ask all the holder makers that question, I don't know but clearly they have a reason since they all do it.

[Colin Graham]

Well, I'd like to know. And I'm sure folks paying $500 or so per would love to as well.

[CP Goerz]

So there it is holder-makers..why do you do it?


PS:How much would you charge to make me a few 8x20 holders?

[robert]

CP, Yes it is true I have a vertical back and a horizontal back for my camera and the holders fit neither one. Yes it is also true that Alan made some custom trays for me that leaked like a sieve and he gave me a full refund toward the price of a new holder which I sent him the difference for. This holder had to be returned because it didn't fit. This is when I ordered the custom fit holders and told him to just keep the money toward the price of the four holders. It is also true that the six month lead time on the holders turned into 18 months before I ever got them. I shoot many formats so it may have been a few months before I got around to using them but the dimensions on the holders or the dimensions on my camera backs didn't change. I know who you are Andrew and you were raving on the other thread about how your AWB holders have the best tolerance of any other holders you own and you rattled off about every film holder manufacturer out there. This was all before I disclosed who these were made by. I will post pics of the holders in both backs. You can defend your friend all you want but it won't change the fact that these holders are junk and your friend won't stand behind his work. He could not even be consistent in negotiating a resolution. First he says send them back but I'll only refund 75% of your money. A few hours later that changed to I won't refund anything. Now you may try and get me to keep quite about this but I'll scream and post to myself as often as I like if it will help someone else from making the mistake of buying AWB holders. I've compared these holders filmgates with other AWB holders in 12x20 and 7x17 and all the others have twice as good fitting filmgates as these do. Robert

[Rob_5419]

CP -

seems like you've already decided the facts before the thread.

Have you even read and examined what Robert has presented in the thread?

[CP Goerz]

I STILL rave about AWB holders, don't misquote me! You have done this twice on the same point. I thought my comprehension was bad!



QUOTE=robert;308706]CP, Yes it is true I have a vertical back and a horizontal back for my camera and the holders fit neither one.






Is this because you sent Alan a holder to work from and not the actual backs..did it cross your mind that Wisner cameras aren't all the same size and that they are pretty much custom made?



'Yes it is also true that Alan made some custom trays for me that leaked like a sieve and he gave me a full refund toward the price of a new holder which I sent him the difference for.'




Is it true that the developer trays were returned because Alan made the trays with sloped sides for storage purposes and that you returned them under the complaint that they 'didn't fit on your counter? Now you are saying they leaked like a sieve? Which is it? I am given to understand that the cost of the trays being put to the holder was your idea, are you now going to say that isn't true?




'This holder had to be returned because it didn't fit. This is when I ordered the custom fit holders and told him to just keep the money toward the price of the two holders.'



Two, four or six holders..just what is it?



'It is also true that the six month lead time on the holders turned into 18 months before I ever got them.'




Alan doesn't promise anyone exact times on holders...he made an exception for you?








'I shoot many formats so it may have been a few months before I got around to using'


Eight months?!!!





'I know who you are Andrew'



And many people have seen my portrait at the post office..so what?



'and you were raving on the other thread about how your AWB holders have the best tolerance of any other holders you own and you rattled off about every film holder manufacturer out there.'



Read the top line regarding that point. I still think they are the best, period.



'This was all before I disclosed who these were made by.'


You dropped enough hints as to who it was, how many holder makers are out there anyway?



'I will post pics of the holders in both backs.'


And can we be sure that its a different back/holders? Since you have so many and just might be interested in 'proving' a point....




'You can defend your friend all you want but it won't change the fact that these holders are junk and your friend won't stand behind his work. He id not even consistent in negotiating a resolution. First he says send them back but I'll only refund 75% of your money.'




Did Alan say he would fix the rib lock free of charge and as part of his standard and excellent customer service and that you said no and wanted a full refund? Did Alan then say that he has a restocking fee of 25% on CUSTOM made items(see earlier posts regarding this GENEROUS practice) and that you immediately said you would only pay 12 1/2% and not give him the opportunity to fix the rib lock? The film slot as mentioned is standard as far as I'm concerned and seems to be the norm from many other makers as well.





'A few hours later that changed to I won't refund anything.'


Maybe you pissed him off?









Now you may try and get me to keep quite about this but I'll scream and post to myself as often as I like if it will help someone else from making the mistake of buying AWB holders. I've compared these holders filmgates with other AWB holders in 12x20 and 7x17 and all the others have twice as good fitting filmgates as these do. Robert[/QUOTE]




Go ahead and scream all you like, you clearly have enough time to post replies to your own posts and I don't. I'm done with this so you can start your cacophony again.



CP Goerz

[CP Goerz]

Rob_5419


I've read his posts here AND on Apug, what did I miss?

CP Goerz

[Rob_5419]

Em.....Andrew's point about the shoddy workmanship on his holders?

And AWB's attitude towards aftersales service and customers when things don't hold up to their usual tolerances?

[robert]

CP, Brubaker had both a holder and a back to measure from. In your previous post you said I had two backs and insinuated that I may have sent one and I'm trying to show others here the other back. And the trays were returned because the glue holding them together didn't hold and they did leak like a sieve. Plus you are correct in that they didn't fit my sink and this is after me giving him exact measurements of length, width and depth And it is 4 holders not two I edited that typo 30 seconds after posting. I'm glad to see you are waiting with baited breath for my posts Also Alan said return the holders and he would make it right. I also told him I would send him one of my backs. He also said he would see what he could do about the slop in the gate. Then he called back and asked for both backs. So I proceeded in removing the ground glass for shipping. I then took exact measurements and called him back with the discrepancies. This is when he changed his mind again about fixing the filmgate slop. He had no intention of fixing the holders he wanted my two backs so he could mill the backs to fit the holders. I paid for holders to fit my back not mill my back to fit his holders. That is what is meant by custom fit holders. Plus four sheets of film being able to load in a single side, allowing enough slop where the film is on the verge of falling out of the film rail is hardly acceptable by me. And in comparing them to some of his older holders none of the older holders allowed this type of slop. Like I said I'll post pics of both backs with holders loaded. Robert

[robert]

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8795&stc=1&d=1200189828...Here are both backs. You can tell the vertical from the horizontal by the location of back mounting pins. You will also notice for him to mill the top rib handle so it would clear he would have to mill right through the screws on the rib mounting plate. This is why he wanted me to send both of my backs so he could mill my backs instead and he made no mention to me that is what he had in mind to do when he requested I send both backs. Robert

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

Rob_5419


I've read his posts here AND on Apug, what did I miss?

CP Goerz

Are you serious? What did you miss? How about the fact that the holders have too much space between the septum and the film slots? How about that even with the Wisner back AWB could not make the top rib clear the edge and the holders are not flush with the back?

I could understand the rib not clearing if Robert had ordered the holders with no other requirements, but come on, he takes the trouble to send the back so he can have perfect holders and this is what he gets? It is cool you are standing up for your friend, but then, sometimes friends have to be honest and tell each other the truth. If you cannot see that these are very bad holders then I think your friendship is blinding you.

[Colin Graham]

You give a quarter crank on the z-axis instead of a full crank.

This is pretty nebulous so I thought I provide some illustration. I cut the center septum slot with a 1/16 cutter. To cut the film slots, all you do is back the fence away to lessen the depth of the cutter, then raise the cutter head (z-axis) a partial crank to shave a little rabbet there. Once the septum is in place, a slot for the film is formed. So it's not like you need a super thin cutter or a lot of special skills. The CAD drawing shows a section view with and without the septum in place. In the photo I'm milling the septum and haven't moved the fence depth yet.

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

This is pretty nebulous so I thought I provide some illustration. I cut the center septum slot with a 1/16 cutter. To cut the film slots, all you do is back the fence away to lessen the depth of the cutter, then raise the cutter head (z-axis) a partial crank to shave a little rabbet there. Once the septum is in place, a slot for the film is formed. So it's not like you need a super thin cutter or a lot of special skills. The CAD drawing shows a section view with and without the septum in place. In the photo I'm milling the septum and haven't moved the fence depth yet.

Pretty nifty Colin.... :)

[Colin Graham]

Thanks Jorge. I hope I'm not hijacking the thread, but I did want to illustrate why I couldn't understand the slop in the AWB holders. The tolerances aren't hard to achieve.

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

Thanks Jorge. I hope I'm not hijacking the thread, but I did want to illustrate why I couldn't understand the slop in the AWB holders. The tolerances aren't hard to achieve.

I don't think you are highjacking the thread. In fact it is a very illustrative point as to why we are all at a loss as to why the holders have so much play. In addition from your picture we can see you are cutting along the grain, once the spline is glued to the frame piece it would expand across the grain, so wood expansion shoudl not be a problem.

[Colin Graham]

True. Plus, movement tends to be from the center out, so it seems like seasonal changes at this scale would be on the order of thousandths of an inch, especially with well seasoned quarter-sawn wood.

Just to reiterate though, I'm not a holder making expert, this was my first go at it. I'm sure AWB has his reasons, I'm just really curious about what they could be.

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

True. Plus, movement tends to be from the center out, so it seems like seasonal changes at this scale would be on the order of thousandths of an inch, especially with well seasoned quarter-sawn wood.

Exactly, besides who cares?!? The expansion would only make the spline wider not thicker. Maybe you should go into the holder making bussiness.. :)

[robert]

Thanks for posting this Colin. It is good to be reassured that closer tolerances can be obtained. Because in all the other holders I own the film gates are a lot tighter. Robert