Azo, Weston and making a better paper?

[Dakotah Jackson]

With Kodak stabbing us in the back by discontinuing Azo(and all B&W papers) we have Michael A. Smith working to get a new paper out to match it. Edward Weston apparently used Azo but it is my understanding that one of the DuPont contact printing papers was actually his favorite until it was discontinued.

Is it possible for someone to dig up the forumla for the old DuPont papers or similar to use in making new contact printing papers that have an even greater range than Azo did?

[Mark Sampson]

Well, Michael Smith's recent experience would seem to show that inventing a new photographic paper, even with an existing "recipe", is extremely time-consuming and very expensive. And the market for contact-speed papers is small, even within the declining b/w paper market. I can't imagine anyone else trying to travel the same road... it seems that none of the existing paper manufacturers see a business case for introducing a new contact paper; that's why Michael and Paula are putting up their own money to get one to market.

[Michael Kadillak]

With Kodak stabbing us in the back by discontinuing Azo(and all B&W papers) we have Michael A. Smith working to get a new paper out to match it. Edward Weston apparently used Azo but it is my understanding that one of the DuPont contact printing papers was actually his favorite until it was discontinued.

Is it possible for someone to dig up the forumla for the old DuPont papers or similar to use in making new contact printing papers that have an even greater range than Azo did?

Nobody was pleased about the decision by Kodak to consolidate their business operations that resulted in the loss of the B&W paper business (including the very Kodak management team that made the decision) but it was the right decision because it afforded Kodak the ability to stay in the game. As a result, they were able to finance the R&D to dramatically improve their T Max 400 film where the most critical need resides. By the way I arrived at this business conclusion as a dedicated Azo consumer.

B&W silver paper technology peaked in the late 1950's with the introduction of variable contrast products. Since then it has been a dinosaur industry and Kodak housed these operations in antiquated buildings that leaked valuable energy like a seive. Film on the other hand has seen many advances including T grain technology that has had a most positive affect in the industry.

IMHO the Achilles heal in the analog process is quality sheet film - not paper. There are and will continue to be a myriad of opportunities for printing. If you look at this situation as one would look down at your feet I understand where the stab in the back feeling comes from. But if you look up and see the horizon, things are quite vibrant and positive. It is a matter of perspective.

Historically even in the peak of the really good times in the photographic industry papers and films came and went and people adapted quite nicely. It is just a fact of life in business leaving the emotion on the sidelines.

As per your question, old formulas called for old raw materials that are either unavailable or are not the best materials currently available for the task at hand. There is also a consolidation of the industry on the paper side (most recently Ilford acquiring Kentmere) as the industry adjusts to the new economics of analog consumers worldwide. Course if anyone knows a passionate photographer with some reasonable financial resources that they could put up we could solve this problem with a few phone calls.

Absent that quick fix I am confident that the industry will come through. We need to continue to purchase analog products and we will all be fine in the long run.

Cheers!

[Duane Polcou]

Manufacturing sensitized materials is not as simple as obtaining a formula and setting up shop. Having worked in both the manufacturing and marketing end of photographic chemistry (Edwal), a company must deal with issues regarding the availablity and cost of raw materials, the shelf life and stockpiling of raw materials, EPA and local regs regarding disposal of chemical waste, the physical plant structured to tolerances of temperature and light-tightness, OSHA requirements, paying for trained personnell, returns because distributors and retailers stored your product improperly, on and on and on. In the face of a shrinking market share, I am amazed that anyone still wants to make this stuff. Power to the likes of Foma, Arista, and of course Ilford.

[Christopher Nisperos]

Nobody was pleased about the decision by Kodak...
IMHO the Achilles heal in the analog process is quality sheet film - not paper.
.... I am confident that the industry will come through. We need to continue to purchase analog products and we will all be fine in the long run.
Cheers!

Michael —with my apologies for abbreviating your excellent post— I say, Amen, especially to your keen observation that it is the possible future lack of good film(s) which is more important than that of the lack of photographic paper.

Supplies and techniques for salted paper and other alt processes are readily available now and today (as they have been since the beginning). However, aside from coating our own wet collodion plates —which looks a bit messy and time-consuming, if fun, neat-looking and creative—, the ability to create in-camera silver-based intermediate imaging is my big worry for the future.

Hence, as you sorta said, "Vive film!"

Christopher

I hasten to PS - of course, I still hope that good papers continue to be manufactured, too! Let's not forget to support the likes of Ilford, Adox's new MCC (once it comes out), Lodima, Foma ... or whatever you use.

[Bill_1856]

I can find no data to support any use of AZO paper by Edward or Brett Weston.

[Merg Ross]

Bill, Brett did print briefly on Azo, although it was not his favorite paper nor did it result in his finest prints (in my opinion). This was after the demise of Haloid Industro which he and Edward used. Prior to using the Haloid paper, Edward printed on Convira.

Before we were left with Azo as the sole contact paper, two other papers disappeared:
Contactone (Gevaert) and Lustrex (Ansco). I printed on these in the 1960's and preferred the look of the Contactone to my Illustrators Azo prints. All of these papers yielded different results and it would be difficult to judge one superior to the other. It all comes down to personal taste.

A lot of good points have already been made, and I believe that we are fortunate to have as many choices for film and paper as we do today. We should make the most of available materials and be thankful for their existence.

[Kirk Keyes]

If you want an Azo like paper and can't wait for MAS's run to somehow become good so he can start selling it, you can always make your own Azo-type contact paper. Just get in contact with Photo Engineer (PE) over at AP*G.

There's a forum there for rolling your own emulsions, and PE teaches classes on how to make your own silver emulsions. I attended the one he did last spring at the Formulary and I assisted in making contact paper, enlarging paper, and film speed emulsions there. It's really not hard at all to make an Azo-type emulsion. Pretty easy, actually. I found we got some pretty nice looking paper coated in the class with just a little practice.

And since you are coating your own paper, you can choose the surface and look of your prints. And then, you would truely be an artist as you made both the print and the paper yourself! ;^)

I'm practicing these days on making a film emulsion at home that I'll put on glass plates.

[Sal Santamaura]

If you want an Azo like paper and can't wait for MAS's run to somehow become good so he can start selling it, you can always make your own Azo-type contact paper. Just get in contact with Photo Engineer (PE) over at AP*G...No need to be circumspect. It's apug.org and PE is Ron Mowrey, who's also registered here (under his real name), where he last visited on January 3.

[Bill_1856]

What was the difference between AZO and Kodak's other contact paper VELOX? Was ILLUSTRATOR'S SPECIAL (Paul Strand's paper) for contact or enlargement?

[Captain_joe6]

Here is as much as I have to sya on Weston's papers: he mentions at least 3 types in the Daybooks: Velour, Haloid, and 'Gasslight,' which Nancy Newhall proclaims to be Azo in her follow-up essay on Weston's technique. There was also factory-coated pt/pd paper, which, personally, I want to see again. That gets my vote.

And as far as producing a new paper with an existing formula, it is an intensely complicated process. I seem to recall Michael Smith or someone connected to his efforts mentioning once that the characteristics of the Azo emulsion changed somewhat depending on the shape of the kettle it was mixed in, or that how it was mixed or had certain components added to it would change it as well.

I am incredibly excited that Michael is doing this, no matter what paper he's creating. Certainly I will be using Lodima when it becomes available, but if it were another decent paper I would use it unflinchingly as well. It's the principle of the thing.

But man, if only someone would start making pre-prepared pt/pd paper again. THAT would be awesome!

[Dakotah Jackson]

"Nobody was pleased about the decision by Kodak to consolidate their business operations that resulted in the loss of the B&W paper business (including the very Kodak management team that made the decision) but it was the right decision"

Michael, I disagree. It was not the right decision. EK could have given notice and taken orders for specific products before shutting down on everyone. They could have put the paper division and products up for sale to Ilford or someone else. Possibly even a chinese firm.

Instead they left us all high and dry. Over a hundred years of paper making wiped out overnight. Including Azo, the only contact printing paper on the market.

I will buy Michaels paper. But after reading about the results of 'photo engineer' I wondered if making a paper was within the capabilities of Ilford or similar. They make special cuts of larger sheet film sizes so why not a sliver chloride contact paper to complement the larger film?

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

But man, if only someone would start making pre-prepared pt/pd paper again. THAT would be awesome!

There is a guy on e bay selling albumen paper ready to sensitize.... I am really curious to try it.. :)

[Jan Pedersen]

Go for it Jorge. I bought some and have the silver nitrate, just need the time to coat and print, hopefully this coming week.
Look forward to see how it looks and in particular how some of the forum members print on this paper.

[John Bowen]

EK could have given notice and taken orders for specific products before shutting down on everyone. They could have put the paper division and products up for sale to Ilford or someone else. Possibly even a chinese firm.

Instead they left us all high and dry. Over a hundred years of paper making wiped out overnight. Including Azo, the only contact printing paper on the market.




Dakotah,

Kodak annouonced the discontinuance of B&W Papers in June of '05. I was able to purchase Azo from B&H, Badger, Michael Smith, Unique Photo and someplace in Brooklyn on a regular basis until December 2005. I was also able to purchase a couple boxes of Polymax in November 2005 from B&H. In my mind, Kodak gave us considerable notice that they were discontinuing their B&W paper business. Exactly what "products" were you unable to acquire before December 2005?

On the day Kodak announced the discontinuance of Azo, I had never even tried the paper. For the following 6 months, everytime I ordered something from Badger, or B&H I included a few boxes of Azo with the order. I also found that Unique Photo supply had 500 sheet boxes and ordered 4 500 sheet boxes from them.

When Michael Smith purchased the remainder of Kodak's stocks in November/December 2005, he promptly announced that he would sell 20x24 Grade 2 Azo to anyone who wanted to purchase it, no limits! There was still some of this 20x24 Azo for sale from MAS in early 2007!

Remember, Kodak had been producing Azo in Brazil and couldn't make it profitably. The demand for the product was just too low. I think we should all be thankful that Kodak kept Azo around as long at they did. Without MAS, Azo would probably have disappeared long ago.

So now MAS is working to bring Lodima to market and Ron Mowry is working on a "do it yourself" silver chloride paper emulsion. Things could be a LOT worse for we Azo users.

Fortunate for us, Azo keeps a very long time. Just keep your eyes open. It shows up quite often, at least in 8x10 and smaller sizes.

If you weren't fortunate enough to stock pile a reasonable stash for yourself, you aren't alone. Check this forum and Apug to see what others who have run out of Azo are currently using.

Best wishes,

[Michael Kadillak]

"Nobody was pleased about the decision by Kodak to consolidate their business operations that resulted in the loss of the B&W paper business (including the very Kodak management team that made the decision) but it was the right decision"

Michael, I disagree. It was not the right decision. EK could have given notice and taken orders for specific products before shutting down on everyone. They could have put the paper division and products up for sale to Ilford or someone else. Possibly even a chinese firm.

Instead they left us all high and dry. Over a hundred years of paper making wiped out overnight. Including Azo, the only contact printing paper on the market.

I don't know why you were not aware of this fact but Kodak did provide ample notification of the closure of the B&W paper business including Azo. You could have purchased all you wanted for many months. After hearing of the last manufacturing run of Azo it was generally believed that the last run would last several years at current consumption rates. Everyone felt a tremendous sense of relief. Then we heard that somebody decided to purchase the entire remaining inventory of Azo and that was, as they say, the end of the story.

Kodak could have sold the paper division to someone else. If this was such an attractive opportunity why then did Ilford recently purchase Kentmere and close the entire operation? What did that deal accomplish? Ilford preserves their precious market share into the future by taking a competitor out of the market and the consumers lose who knows how many Kentmere products? Only time will tell. Yet Ilford can do NO wrong in the eyes of the consuming public. The fact is that the only differentiation between Kodak and Ilford is that one of them is publically traded and the other is private. They are both cut out of the identical cloth.

Still, we are damn lucky to have what we have.

[Merg Ross]

Azo just happens to be the last of the contact papers. If one is concerned about its demise, consider the loss of Haloid, Lustrex, Contactone, and the other fine papers that disappeared earlier. I would not place blame on Koddak for their decision to discontinue the production of a contact paper.

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

Go for it Jorge. I bought some and have the silver nitrate, just need the time to coat and print, hopefully this coming week.
Look forward to see how it looks and in particular how some of the forum members print on this paper.

Let me know how it comes out, maybe even post a print?!?.....

[David A. Goldfarb]

If this was such an attractive opportunity why then did Ilford recently purchase Kentmere and close the entire operation?

Just to be accurate about this:


Dear All,

Since the takeover of KENTMERE Photographic Limited and after extensive discussions with the mangement of KENTMERE it has become obvious that the best solution going forward is to close the KENTMERE factory in Stavely in 2008 and transfer some personnel and manufacturing equipment from Stavely to the HARMAN technology facility at Mobberley in Cheshire.

We have been working closely with KENTMERE Photographic personnel who have been extremely supportive to ensure the smooth and seemless transfer of products from one facility to another. Our original statement has not changed at all, all KENTMERE monochrome products that were manufactured at Stavely will remain and will now be manufactured at Mobberley, no products will be discontinued, and we are currently looking at the base options going forward for the possible re-introduction of KENTMERE Art Classic.

We have produced very, very large stocks of KENTMERE manufactured product to ensure we have plenty of time to enable the equipment transfer from KENTMERE to HARMAN technology Limited to take place and to ensure that the Mobberley produced KENTMERE products are as close to the originals as is humanly and technically possible.


Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Source: http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/43451-harman-technology-acquires-kentmere-photographic-13.html#post561890

[Pete Watkins]

Harman will soon be based in India. Imagine how much fun it will be to phone their call centre then.
Pete.

[Sal Santamaura]

There's a void on this forum. Dan Smith attacks Kodak. Pete Watkins attacks Ilford. Won't someone step up and attack Fuji with equal fervor?

[Dakotah Jackson]

Yep, I attack Kodak. Have for some time after getting screwed by them on Kodachrome processing and a number of other things. They continue to 'downsize' which means they continue to cut the services and products they tried so hard for so long to get us to use. Products that have no comparable substitute. EK used to be satisfied with some products making a very small profit margin as long as they filled the market need. We bought these and also purchased many other products as we supported their efforts in supplying us with the less profitable items. Then they cut, and cut... and cut again. Products and services both. Now I don't buy anything from The Yellow Godfather.

Ilford purchased Kentmere and has announced the closing of their plant and the MOVING of it to an Ilford facility. NO discontinuing of the papers Kentmere made.

As for Fuji, I still miss Fuji 50. A really nice match for printing on Cibachrome. As for Fuji B&W, I don't use it. Ilford FP4+ does a really nice job. I do still miss Delta 400 in 8x10 and have hollared at Ilford over that one just as I did at Kodak for some of their blunders.

[Michael Kadillak]

Yep, I attack Kodak. Have for some time after getting screwed by them on Kodachrome processing and a number of other things. They continue to 'downsize' which means they continue to cut the services and products they tried so hard for so long to get us to use. Products that have no comparable substitute. EK used to be satisfied with some products making a very small profit margin as long as they filled the market need. We bought these and also purchased many other products as we supported their efforts in supplying us with the less profitable items. Then they cut, and cut... and cut again. Products and services both. Now I don't buy anything from The Yellow Godfather.

Ilford purchased Kentmere and has announced the closing of their plant and the MOVING of it to an Ilford facility. NO discontinuing of the papers Kentmere made.

As for Fuji, I still miss Fuji 50. A really nice match for printing on Cibachrome. As for Fuji B&W, I don't use it. Ilford FP4+ does a really nice job. I do still miss Delta 400 in 8x10 and have hollared at Ilford over that one just as I did at Kodak for some of their blunders.

Somewhere there must be a therapy session for purloined Kodak consumers. I hereby nominate you for the next get together in your area as it will make a huge positive difference in your personal well being. Life is far to short to continue to carry this baggage.

You clearly have no practical business knowledge or experience and you praise one company and spear another in a miopic vendetta that makes absolutely no sense.

I come here to this forum to grow, learn and pass along the marvelous experience of large format and work together with many others that feel the same way to solve problems that we all face. That is the only way that we will survive this onslaught of industry consolidation.

A point of clarification. When Ilford purchased Kentmere they sold for scrap all of the perfectly good Kentmere coating operations and in the process took considerable coating capacity out of the market forever. Tell me again why this is a good thing and that the massive product line from two companies that required considerable production capacity will continue to be manufactured with half the coating operations? Like I said earlier, Ilford swims in the same pond as Fuji and Kodak but unfortunately, perception is your only reality.

Cheers!

[Gene McCluney]

A point of clarification. When Ilford purchased Kentmere they sold for scrap all of the perfectly good Kentmere coating operations and in the process took considerable coating capacity out of the market forever.
Cheers!

Please cite your source for this tid-bit of information. Simon Galley has posted on APUG that the equipment was being moved to Ilfords plant. Ilford has plenty of space for additional production machinery. Also, Ilford, now is coating Bergger papers, so they need production capacity, perhaps.

[Michael Kadillak]

Please cite your source for this tid-bit of information. Simon Galley has posted on APUG that the equipment was being moved to Ilfords plant. Ilford has plenty of space for additional production machinery. Also, Ilford, now is coating Bergger papers, so they need production capacity, perhaps.

Give it a bit of time and we can re-ask the question of Ilford after the fact. Over the last few weeks and months I have spoken to perhaps a dozen people within the industry on a number of items (lots going on I am finding out much to my pleasure) and quite honestly I am not sure who may have mentioned this to me in casual conversation. But that is not the critical issue here. Moving delicate and heavy coating equipment is a very costly venture and will only be undertaken IF there is a very serious intent on the part of Ilford to utilize these well into the future.

If you look at this from a business perspective very analytically and plotted up the actual photographic paper sales units individually for Bergger, Kentmere and Ilford there naturally will be obvious heads of the pack and laggers. The leaders of the pack will continue to be made and the laggers will be excised from the product lines because it is as much about product share as it is about net revenues. Particularly within a serious consolidation move which this one is, business people are making business decisions so don;t take it personally. My point is that if you have a favorite Kentmere or Bergger paper I would be stocking up ASAP to hedge your bets and to demonstrate to Ilford that you want this product continued.

Cheers!

[Sal Santamaura]

...Simon Galley has posted on APUG that the equipment was being moved to Ilfords plant...Please cite your source for this statement that, as you've worded it, implies "all the equipment." I'm only aware of one post by Simon

http://www.apug.org/forums/561890-post124.html

in which he stated that Harman will "...transfer some personnel and manufacturing equipment from Stavely to the HARMAN technology facility at Mobberley in Cheshire." Italics added by me. There is no precision in the term "some." It could refer to anything from finishing to coating equipment and might range from one small item to most of what Kentmere owned.

[David A. Goldfarb]

One question is whether Harman is producing at capacity and would even need all of Kentmere's equipment to produce all of Kentmere's products. Since they advertise OEM coating services for other products, I suspect not. If they are taking coating capacity out of the market, but aren't producing at capacity themselves, they aren't necessarily reducing the amount of product in the market, but rather doing it more efficiently.

If they are committed to maintaining the Kentmere product line, they might move things like kettles which can influence the character of the emulsion in a way that is hard to duplicate in another kettle. I suspect that they might move something like a smaller coating machine for smaller production runs. Time will certainly tell, but Harman has been very up front thus far about what they can and can't produce and has been responsive to inquiries about reintroducing products like SFX and cutting ULF and non-standard sizes without requiring large orders up front.

[Michael Kadillak]

One question is whether Harman is producing at capacity and would even need all of Kentmere's equipment to produce all of Kentmere's products. Since they advertise OEM coating services for other products, I suspect not. If they are taking coating capacity out of the market, but aren't producing at capacity themselves, they aren't necessarily reducing the amount of product in the market, but rather doing it more efficiently.

If they are committed to maintaining the Kentmere product line, they might move things like kettles which can influence the character of the emulsion in a way that is hard to duplicate in another kettle. I suspect that they might move something like a smaller coating machine for smaller production runs. Time will certainly tell, but Harman has been very up front thus far about what they can and can't produce and has been responsive to inquiries about reintroducing products like SFX and cutting ULF and non-standard sizes without requiring large orders up front.

There are several events that we can accept as fact. 1) The global market for conventional photographic paper is consolidating to a lower number, 2) A number of companies have decided to leave the business cold and others that have left as a result of being acquired and 3) the remaining players in this niche business are actively posturing themselves to find a way to make money in this business.

Only a select very few executives within their organization knows the capacity utilization at Ilford because it is highly confidential. Furthermore, what photographic products at Ilford from the three entities (Ilford, Bergger and Kentmere) will survive to make it to the post consolidation sales sheets two years from now is anyone's guess. All that we can do at the consumer level is to continue to purchase those products that assist you best express yourself within this expressive medium to the best of your abilities and encourage others to be as optimistic in this regards as well.

Cheers!

[Ted Harris]

Harman will soon be based in India. Imagine how much fun it will be to phone their call centre then.
Pete.

Is that speculation or do you have a source you can cite?