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View Full Version : Time to switch from Epson printers?



Norm Buchanan
10-Dec-2007, 10:46
I have been using an Epson R2400 for a couple of years and had no serious complaints until recently - in fact I love the quality. Recently I started printing on heavier cotton-based papers like the Hahnemuhle photo rag and museum etching papers. Feeding these papers is a pain and often takes several attempts before the printer doesn't "jam". I have read that this is a common problem. I have been considering getting a 3800 for a while and now I am having second thoughts. Does the 3800 have this same issue? If so what printer should I be considering? An HP?

Any insight would very helpful.

Thanks,
N.

coops
10-Dec-2007, 10:55
Are you loading the paper manually from the back or using the paper feeder? I had the same issues but started manually feeding the paper and it works fine.

Kirk Gittings
10-Dec-2007, 10:57
The 3800 has a higher quality feed mechanism than the 2400. The Hps seem to be real contenders these days, though there continues to be some complaints about the color gamut from really picky color printers.

photographs42
10-Dec-2007, 10:59
I have printed several thousand book pages on double sided Photo Rag on a 1280 and it is a pain. Every 8 or 10 sheets, I remove the paper and press the paper advance while holding a damp rag against the feed rollers. Then I let it set for a few seconds or feed a scrap page through to pick up any residual moisture.

It’s not a fix, more like a work-a-round, but it works.
Jerome

Ted Harris
10-Dec-2007, 11:12
My choice for a smaller sheet feed printer is the HP B9180. If you want to take the step to a wide format printer then go with the Canon IPF 5100 sheet feed and 17" rolls, 12 inks, 16 bit printing without a RIP.

Lenny Eiger
10-Dec-2007, 11:48
- in fact I love the quality. Recently I started printing on heavier cotton-based papers like the Hahnemuhle photo rag and museum etching papers. Feeding these papers is a pain and often takes several attempts before the printer doesn't "jam".
Thanks,
N.

I have always suggested that people using small printers move up to the next level of quality, which is a printer with metal parts vs plastic. You will get much more from a 24 inch printer than just size. While it's nice to be able to make a 16x20 print on a 24 inch roll, what you really get is a much more controllable system, you can use rolls or sheets, and the printer handles them both well. I would go for the 7000 series.... Bite the bullet on the initial cost, get a used one if you want... They use less ink.

Don't go for the deal that gets you a bunch of Epson paper, get some Hahnemuhle in rolls. shadesofpaper.com is a pretty good source... if you haven't found them already..

Just my 2cents...

Lenny

Norm Buchanan
10-Dec-2007, 12:00
Are you loading the paper manually from the back or using the paper feeder? I had the same issues but started manually feeding the paper and it works fine.

Hi Coops. Yes I am using the manual feeder at the back.

Kirk, do you know how the HP printers are with respect to neutral B&W? I am not too concerned about very slight color gamut issues but I definitely want neutral black and white prints.

Asher Kelman
10-Dec-2007, 12:10
If cost was not a difference then what would one choose for a 24" printer?

The Canon 5000 machine has lead to concerns about the whole Canon professional printer series. I'd like to hear some reports from people who use the HP's and Canons to find out where we are up to in quality and reliability.

Wanting to move away from Epson is a repeated subject of threads, so there is a lot of interest in this subject. What there's a thirst for is reports from the HP and Canon users.

Asher

Keith S. Walklet
10-Dec-2007, 12:26
FWIW, the 9180's paper path was insufficient to handle the heavier rag papers I wanted to run through it. I ended up with an Epson 4800 as my desktop printer, which has an adjustable paper platen and a paper tray that handles multiple sheets of the heavy stock with no problem.

Dave Aharonian
10-Dec-2007, 12:43
I've has a 3800 for almost a year now and I only print on heavy papers. I use the rear manual feed slot and I've never had a problem with it.

matthew blais
10-Dec-2007, 13:13
Manual rear feed on my 2200 works fine...

Lenny Eiger
10-Dec-2007, 13:15
Hi Coops. Yes I am using the manual feeder at the back.

Kirk, do you know how the HP printers are with respect to neutral B&W? I am not too concerned about very slight color gamut issues but I definitely want neutral black and white prints.

I know this a question for Kirk, but if you want neutral black and white, you should use a printer with only black inks... Color inks can't compete - at least for most styles of printing... I like Cone inks myself....

Lenny

paulr
10-Dec-2007, 13:36
I have printed several thousand book pages on double sided Photo Rag on a 1280 and it is a pain. Every 8 or 10 sheets, I remove the paper and press the paper advance while holding a damp rag against the feed rollers. Then I let it set for a few seconds or feed a scrap page through to pick up any residual moisture.

It’s not a fix, more like a work-a-round, but it works.
Jerome

I have this same problem and it makes me crazy. Have you looked into any of the roller cleaning/conditioning products out there? I remember reading about something a while ago but never tried it.

RPNugent
10-Dec-2007, 16:28
Given the deals I'm seeing on the Canon ipf5000 at the two sites below I'm wondering if anyone has real experience in using one. The deal on a second set of inks makes it even more enticing.

Has anyone dealt with either of these companies?

https://www.digitalgraphicsresources.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=159&gclid=CKfx9vXunpACFReQGgodzkud6g

http://www.itsupplies.com/cgi-bin/itsupplies.storefront/EN/Product/1013B002AA?gclid=CLbFwYTvnpACFQgaHgodZVzCOg

Kirk Gittings
10-Dec-2007, 16:40
Norm, the b&w samples I have seen from Ted's HP are very nuetral. Personally I use Imageprint on a 4000 (unless I want to print bigger where I use a friends 9800) which gives me very nuetral grays and very satisfying b&w prints. My plan is to convert it to Cone inks and buy another for color, but I am waiting really to see what the next generation brings.

jetcode
10-Dec-2007, 16:51
My choice for a smaller sheet feed printer is the HP B9180. If you want to take the step to a wide format printer then go with the Canon IPF 5100 sheet feed and 17" rolls, 12 inks, 16 bit printing without a RIP.

I drool at the thought of owning a printer like that, maybe next year

Lenny Eiger
10-Dec-2007, 17:23
My plan is to convert it to Cone inks and buy another for color, but I am waiting really to see what the next generation brings.

I'll second that one.... I start with Cone inks, then re-mix them to my own specs, moving them from a quad-black to a six-dilution setup. Great stuff....

Lenny
EigerStudios

Ted Harris
10-Dec-2007, 17:25
If cost was not a difference then what would one choose for a 24" printer?

The Canon 5000 machine has lead to concerns about the whole Canon professional printer series. I'd like to hear some reports from people who use the HP's and Canons to find out where we are up to in quality and reliability.


Asher

There was a lot of shouting about the Canon 5000 that came from a vary small number of people. It had a problem with its roll feed unit in the early production runs and Canon fixed it under warranty. There never any complaints about the 8000 or 9000. The new 5100 and 6100 have an improved black inkset. I've been running the 6100 side-by-side with the Z3100 for a number of weeks and differences are subtle but you can't say one is better than the other. The Z3100 is the absolute winner for glossy prints as its gloss enhancer totally eliminates any gloss differential/metamerism/bronzing. Having said that I just ran a black and white figure study on the 6100 that had shone some definite bronzing and gloss differential on the 5000 and it shows none on the 6100 ... dead neutral, too.

IMO the Z3100ps is the gold standard for 24"/44" printers but you pay a premium for this quality, If you don't need the 16 bit output and the control you get from the PS driver or if you are going to run a third party RIP then you don't need the PS version. If you only use a few papers and are satisfied to have others profile them for you or use canned profiles or already own a spectrophotometer then you don't need the Z3100. Both the Z3100 and the IPF 6100/5100 have software settings that allow you to print with the black inks only. Both have 12 inks. The Canon has its own 16 bit driver, not as much flexibility as a full RIP but pretty slick.

You can read my review of the Z3100 in the current issue of View Camera. Earlier issues had reviews of the Canon 5000 and the HP B9180 and there will be a review of the 6100 shortly. Both the Canon and HP printers have some loyal followers among the world's leading photographers.

Doug Dolde
10-Dec-2007, 17:26
I have an Epson 3800 that I sold an Epson 2400 to get. Night and day ink costs...I was constantly filling the 2400. Sure I'd love a 24" model but that will come later.

Brian Ellis
10-Dec-2007, 18:07
I know this a question for Kirk, but if you want neutral black and white, you should use a printer with only black inks... Color inks can't compete - at least for most styles of printing... I like Cone inks myself....

Lenny

That used to be true (unless you bought a $500 and up RIP) but not any more. At a cost of $50 QTR and Epson UC color inks in a 2200, 2400, 3800, and any other Epson printer that QTR supports are a great combination for b&w work. I don't use Advanced B&W with my 3800 but people who use that mode in the Epson printers that offer it say it does an excellent job as well. I used MIS inks for many years, QTR and Epson UC inks do at least as good a job with b&w.

Brian Ellis
10-Dec-2007, 18:21
I have been using an Epson R2400 for a couple of years and had no serious complaints until recently - in fact I love the quality. Recently I started printing on heavier cotton-based papers like the Hahnemuhle photo rag and museum etching papers. Feeding these papers is a pain and often takes several attempts before the printer doesn't "jam". I have read that this is a common problem. I have been considering getting a 3800 for a while and now I am having second thoughts. Does the 3800 have this same issue? If so what printer should I be considering? An HP?

Any insight would very helpful.

Thanks,
N.

I've used Hahnemuhle Photo Rag in my 3800 with no problems once I decided that it would be a good idea to follow the instruction book and use two hands when inserting paper in the back feed. I originally ignored the IB, figuring that I knew more about Epson printers than Epson did and I could do just as well using only one hand. I was wrong, you really should hold the paper on both sides when sliding it into the back feed. If you do that you shouldn't have any trouble with Photo Rag or any other similar paper. The 3800 also has a front feed for canvas and really heavy stuff like that but I haven't had a need to use it. I've been very happy with my 3800 as well as the three other Epson printers I've used over the years, I wouldn't buy anything else.

Bruce M. Herman
10-Dec-2007, 22:45
I have an Epson r2400 and have never been happy with its handling of thick media. Anything stiff enough to require feeding through the front feed is blurred. The ink appears to be smudged as if the ink heads dragging over the page. This is the second r2400 that has done this: I returned the first. I've given up printing on anything that requires the front feed.

By the way, when I called Epson, they asked what paper I was using. Of course, it wasn't an Epson paper, so they said, "Sorry, we can't help you with a someone else's paper." I pointed out that the problem was with the printer, not the paper and that none of the Epson papers required the front feed, to which they replied, "And so your point is...?"

Brian Ellis
11-Dec-2007, 11:22
Norm, the b&w samples I have seen from Ted's HP are very nuetral. Personally I use Imageprint on a 4000 (unless I want to print bigger where I use a friends 9800) which gives me very nuetral grays and very satisfying b&w prints. My plan is to convert it to Cone inks and buy another for color, but I am waiting really to see what the next generation brings.


Does Cone have a solution for the recent ITC ruling on importing third-party knockoffs of Epson cartridges? There was a huge hue and cry about this ruling and its effect on Cone, MIS, et al around the time the ruling came down (and I assume Bush has or will let it become law) and a lot of speculation about possible ways to get around it but I haven't seen anything definitive. I vaguely remember Jon Cone participating in some of those discussions but I don't remember what he said though needless to say he wasn't a happy camper.

Ted Harris
11-Dec-2007, 13:38
Regarding the earlier post about the deals on the Canon IPF 5000. They are indeed great deals if you are searching for absolute rock bottom prices and can live with the few foibles of the machine. Frankly, I didn't find anything wrong enough with the machine that I wouldn't have been happy with it for a very long time and at 900 it is a steal. I don't know anything about the companies listed in the post but I did check with my Canon contacts and they told me that Samy's has some left. Samy's ad show the regular retail price but it might be worth calling them.

BTW, if anyone decided to buy one I have two replacement heads that I will sell very very very cheap. Send me an email.

Kirk Gittings
11-Dec-2007, 13:46
Does Cone have a solution for the recent ITC ruling on importing third-party knockoffs of Epson cartridges? There was a huge hue and cry about this ruling and its effect on Cone, MIS, et al around the time the ruling came down (and I assume Bush has or will let it become law) and a lot of speculation about possible ways to get around it but I haven't seen anything definitive. I vaguely remember Jon Cone participating in some of those discussions but I don't remember what he said though needless to say he wasn't a happy camper.

According to Cone they are going to have to the route of bulk inks totally rather than carts.

Lenny Eiger
11-Dec-2007, 14:55
IMO the Z3100ps is the gold standard for 24"/44" printers but you pay a premium for this quality, If you don't need the 16 bit output and the control you get from the PS driver or if you are going to run a third party RIP then you don't need the PS version. If you only use a few papers and are satisfied to have others profile them for you or use canned profiles or already own a spectrophotometer then you don't need the Z3100. Both the Z3100 and the IPF 6100/5100 have software settings that allow you to print with the black inks only. Both have 12 inks. The Canon has its own 16 bit driver, not as much flexibility as a full RIP but pretty slick.

You can read my review of the Z3100 in the current issue of View Camera. Earlier issues had reviews of the Canon 5000 and the HP B9180 and there will be a review of the 6100 shortly. Both the Canon and HP printers have some loyal followers among the world's leading photographers.

I think the Gold Standard is Roland's dVinci setup. They haven't really pushed this as well as I would like them to, but they have the widest gamut and the smoothest printing of any printer out there. They have won every one of the Digital Imaging shootouts for the past two to three years.

They are also inkjet, and not thermal, using similar heads to the Epsons, which I personally like a lot better...

Lenny

Lenny Eiger
11-Dec-2007, 15:02
That used to be true (unless you bought a $500 and up RIP) but not any more. At a cost of $50 QTR and Epson UC color inks in a 2200, 2400, 3800, and any other Epson printer that QTR supports are a great combination for b&w work. I don't use Advanced B&W with my 3800 but people who use that mode in the Epson printers that offer it say it does an excellent job as well. I used MIS inks for many years, QTR and Epson UC inks do at least as good a job with b&w.

It depends on what you want...

I can also make a perfectly neutral black and white print - easily - from my 12 color d'Vinci setup. I often do. However, you can not compare this to a 6 dilution black and white set. It just doesn't hold up. The extra dilutions give you much more detail in the highlights and the prints are smooth, like platinum prints.

Lenny