Ilford Delta 400 in sheet film. Survey of interes.

[Toyon]

I communicated with Terry Bevens at Ilford USA that they should consider making Ilford Delta 400 available in sheet sizes. They indicated that while they have no plans to make the film, they do listen to consumer feedback.

If you are interested in seeing this film in production, which is quite distinctive from Tmax 400, add to this thread and I will bring the results to the attention of Ilford.

Please indicate your interest and provide an honest assessment of how many sheets of 400 Delta you would expect to buy per year and in what sheet size(s).

[Michael Graves]

I communicated with Terry Bevens at Ilford USA that they should consider making Ilford Delta 400 available in sheet sizes. They indicated that while they have no plans to make the film, they do listen to consumer feedback.

If you are interested in seeing this film in production, which is quite distinctive from Tmax 400, add to this thread and I will bring the results to the attention of Ilford.

Please indicate your interest and provide an honest assessment of how many sheets of 400 Delta you would expect to buy per year and in what sheet size(s).

Till they discontinued it, that was my favorite film. Delta 100 just didn't do it for me, so I switched to HP5. But if they brought it back, I would use it. I have used six boxes of 25 5x7 and 3 boxes of 100 4x5 in the last year. (Please don't ask how many keeps I got. Too embarassing.) Add on a couple of boxes of 8x10.

[Rick Moore]

TMY is my favorite film, due to its extremely long, straight density slope and its ability to produce negatives with enough DR for POP, salted paper, and albumen printing.

Another plus is TMY's outstanding reciprocity failure performance.

How does Delta 400 differ from TMY?

[Eric Biggerstaff]

Toypn,

I am very fond of Delta 100 and would try the Delta 400 if it were in sheets. I used about 600 sheets of 4X5 Delta 100 and FP4+ this year and about 125 sheets of 5X7 FP4+. No telling how much Delta 400 I would use but I would like to try it.

Toyon - I would suggest setting up a poll on this thread so you can track how many say "yes" and how many say "no".

[David A. Goldfarb]

I'd use it in 2x3, 4x5, 5x7, 8x10, 7x17, and 11x14 if it existed. How many sheets depends on what I'm working on at any given time. Figure I'd spend around $1000 a year or more for it.

My usual film in that speed is Tri-X. I don't care for TMY or HP-5+. Delta 400 and Tri-X have different looks, but I like them both. Very nice highlights, smooth midtones, and rich blacks with Delta 400. It looks great in Perceptol, which is an added convenience, since it's an off the shelf developer.

I should also mention that I like having an emulsion that I can use in small formats as well as large formats (or at least one that's similar like TX and TXP), so if I could get Delta 400 in sheet sizes, I would use more of it in rollfilm formats.

[Mark Woods]

I'd like to try it. I use Delta 100, FP-4, and Bergger 200. I shoot in 4x5, 5x7, & 8x10. I don't shoot nearly as much film as some of you guys, but I like the ratios of keepers I have. :-D

[David Beal]

I've had 2 wishes for Ilford. First, that they package Delta 100 and HP5+ in a Fuji-compatible "rapid load;" (I believe they could do this because they are already involved in cooperative marketing deals with FujiFilm Japan) and second, that they make Delta 400 in LF sizes.

I don't see the first happening for another 4 or 5 years, but I think the second could get done more quickly; in fact, I'll bet they could have it ready for a Christmas 2008 release.

I'd buy at least 100 sheets of Delta 400 4x5 if Ilford started making it.

Good Shooting.

/s/ David

[George Hart]

It's superb film with an excellent tonal distribution. I would use it in 5x7 size. It would be great if there was enough support for a production run to be economically viable. However, I'm sure that it will not happen without a group "purchase", from the response that I got from one of the Harman/Ilford directors when I specifically asked him about the possibility of Delta 400 cut sheet film being made at the Open Day that they held last June in Mobberley.

[al olson]

Always wondered what happened to Delta 400. Used one 25-sheet box and then it disappeared. That was quite a while ago. I would like to see it available again.

I would be prepared to purchase 100 sheets of 4x5, 50 sheets of 8x10, and 100 sheets of 2x3 (if Ilford will ever support this format again) for immediate use. (My freezer is running low on HP5.)

This would be great news. Now if they would bring back SFX I would really be happy.

[Ralph Barker]

Delta 400 is a nice film. While I'd be happy to use it in both 4x5 and 8x10 for some work, it would correspondingly reduce the amount of FP4+ and HP5+ I use. So, there would be no net gain from me for Ilford.

[David A. Goldfarb]

If there were more Delta 400, I'd shoot less Tri-X.

[D. Bryant]

Does anyone have any WinPlotter files for Delta 400 processed in a pyro developer or XTOL?

I shot a lot of this film when it was available and liked it very much. I've been using TMY for years now and with the new TMY-2 coming online I'm not sure if Delta 400 would be appealing to me again.

Don Bryant

[Charles Hohenstein]

I don't think that I've ever seen a print from Delta 400, but I've heard that some people feel that the Delta films have more of the look of classic films than the T-Max films from Kodak. Is that true? I would certainly be willing to try the film in 4x5.

[Joseph O'Neil]

I used to love Delta 400 in 4x5. Stains great in PMK pyro,a nd works great i any developer. has near the grain fo T-Max, but handles more like a "traditional" film such as Tri-X or HP5 in development. Would buy a couple hundred sheets in a heartbeat.
joe

[David Luttmann]

Somebody should check with Jorge as I thought he expressed an interest in this film as well....a while back.

[Jan Pedersen]

Use Delta 100 in 5x7 and 35mm and Delta 400 in 35mm
Would buy Delta 400 minimum a 100 sheet in both 5x7 and 8x10 a year.

[Joseph O'Neil]

Perhaps the question should be, how much of a minimum order does Ilford need to make a run of Delta 400?

I mean, even if they did it only once a year, if Ilford said "we need this many sheets ordered" then could we not do that, not unlike the ULF film order that was put together some time ago?

If I knew for a fact that Ilford would do a big run fo Delta 400 say next spring, I'd save up my money, put in a big order, and store the film in the fridge.

Would Ilford be open to such an idea, and would anybody else be interested in it as well? Perhaps the idea could be raised on APUG too?

joe

[Herb Cunningham]

Anybody ever do a serious study of TMY and Ilford Delta 400? I am leaning toward the TMY, will do some 4x5 tests this weekend, but 5x7 in the new stuff is not available.

Would like to see some expert data, would keep me from doing so much testing.

Of course one has to do some testing for one's own chemicals, etc but a technical look would be helpful

[TimRoscoe]

Perhaps the question should be, how much of a minimum order does Ilford need to make a run of Delta 400?

I mean, even if they did it only once a year, if Ilford said "we need this many sheets ordered" then could we not do that, not unlike the ULF film order that was put together some time ago?

If I knew for a fact that Ilford would do a big run fo Delta 400 say next spring, I'd save up my money, put in a big order, and store the film in the fridge.

Would Ilford be open to such an idea, and would anybody else be interested in it as well? Perhaps the idea could be raised on APUG too?


I totally agree with Joe. If it could be sold in boxes of 50 or 100 sheets I would happily buy them once a year.

[Tom Perkins]

I would use it in 4x5 and 5x7. No way to predict the extent but at least $1,000 per year. This is a terrific film and I was sorry to see it go.

[BarryS]

Delta 400 was always a great film, but after they reformulated the emulsion in 2001, it's really amazing. TMY has a bit of a "clinical" look to me compared to the creamy tonality of Delta 400. It's very fine grained with great shadow detail and develops beautifully in just about anything although I think it shines in XTOL or pyro. The grain is really only slightly more than Delta 100, so I think it's like gaining two extra stops at very little tradeoff in quality. I use Delta 400 for 95% of my B&W MF work and was extremely disappointed to see it's not available in 4x5. I'd really stock up if Ilford is willing to do a custom run.

[D. Bryant]

Delta 400 was always a great film, but after they reformulated the emulsion in 2001, it's really amazing. TMY has a bit of a "clinical" look to me compared to the creamy tonality of Delta 400. It's very fine grained with great shadow detail and develops beautifully in just about anything although I think it shines in XTOL or pyro. The grain is really only slightly more than Delta 100, so I think it's like gaining two extra stops at very little tradeoff in quality. I use Delta 400 for 95% of my B&W MF work and was extremely disappointed to see it's not available in 4x5. I'd really stock up if Ilford is willing to do a custom run.
I have to agree with you about the qualities of 400 Delta in XTOL. When the new TMY is released I'm planning on doing a side by side BTZS test (combined with some actual shooting) to see how they compare.

At the very least I may switch to 400 Delta for MF work.

Don Bryant

[Toyon]

If you would like to see Ilford produce Delta 400 in sheet sizes, please add your vote to the poll that will be ending on Saturday. After that, I send the results to Ilford.

[tim atherton]

If they brought back Delta 400 in sheets I would switch to it for 4x5 and 8x10 in a second

[Maris Rusis]

There are already several choices for a (nominal) 400 speed film in 8x10. Delta 400 may not add anything worth having to the list. Now if you were talking Delta 3200 then 1000 sheets a year would be no problem at all!

[mikez]

I'm willing to try any B&W film at least once.

[Anthony Lewis]

I love Delta 100 - the best B&W look. I shoot 4x5. If I could get Delta 400 in 4x5 I would certainly buy it. Would not be in big numbers, because 100 is more appropriate to most situations, but a few of boxes a year of Delta 400 (assuming 50 sheets a box) would be in my league. At present I buy Tri-X320 when I want high speed, another great film, totally different look to Delta. But I prefer the Delta look, but would still use Tri-X when I want a more delicate look - which is important in some situations. However the Delta look is more to what I like in most B&W photography.

I love Tri-X and Delta, to me they are the only B&W films to shoot - to me that is the bottom line.

[Toyon]

Final call to participate in the poll.

[false_Aesthetic]

eh,i missed the poll but I'd buy 5x7 fo sho

[D. Bryant]

Delta 400 may not add anything worth having to the list.!

Not so Maris. 400 Delta has a different tonal character than other 400 speed films.

Don Bryant

[BarryS]

Absolutely--it has the sharpness of the T-grain films with the smooth tonality of the classic black and white films. In that respect it's very unique. It's also very tolerant of variation in processing time and temperature, making it easy to develop.

[George Hart]

Any response from Ilford regarding the possibility of manufacturing Delta 400 film in 5x7 size?

[Rob_5419]

Does anyone have jpeg samples of Delta 400 on sheet film?

Forgive me for bypassing this film as 'just another boring T-grain emulsion' which turns some on and repulses others. How well does it push to ISO 800 or above?

I'd be interested in slower than ISO100 emulsions, or faster than ISO800 emulsions in sheet format, mostly 4x5 or whole plate. Another ISO400 film doesn't really add anything extra to Ilford HP5+ which I do like, other than another choice to dither over, wasting another morning trying to decide which one to load. Not saying that choice and variety is a bad thing, but I'm happy with FP4+ and HP5+, and never liked Delta 100 which although sharp, never seemed to have the tonality nor acutance of FP4+ negatives. I'm sure someone out there has a formula for working Delta film into glorious images - would be great to see some and revise my repertoire ...

[Stefano]

I would like to use Delta 400 in sheets, I usually use 5x7, 8x10 and 8x20 format, my normal films are FP4+ HP5+ and Bergger 200, I used delta 400 in 35mm and I love the tone of this film, and if it comes in sheet I would use it

Stefano Germi
Italy

[John Kasaian]

I'd easily use 100 sheets of 5x7 a year if it were available.

[Joseph O'Neil]

Forgive me for bypassing this film as 'just another boring T-grain emulsion' which turns some on and repulses others. How well does it push to ISO 800 or above?.

-snip-

I found it pushed quite well, but it's been a long time since I last used it in 4x5.

What I liked about Delta 400 is - to me anyhow - it has properties similar to T-max in terms of grain and tonal range, but unlike t-max it was much easier to develop. For example, T-max is a great film, but frankly you pretty much, IMO, have to use either D-76 or X-tol to get a good negative. The T-max developer does work too, but is IMO overpriced and does not do as good a job as plain old D-76, beleive it or not.

But with Delta 400, you can use almost any developer, and thus I find you get a wider range of what you can do. You see, one thing I love about B&W photography in general, is by varying your developer, you can affect the "character" of your image to one degree or another. I really like how you can say shoot 4 sheets fo film of one image in the field, then in the darkroom get four different interpretations.

One direct example, Delta 400 works wonderful in PMK pyro, t-max is , IMO, a complete disaster in PMK pyro. Not saying there isn't a way it cannot be done, I just haven't found it myself. :)

joe

[David A. Goldfarb]

I don't think you can make any generalizations about emulsions on the basis of the crystal shape of the grains. I like Delta 400, and TMX is okay for some things, but I don't care for Delta 100 or TMY. Likewise I like Tri-X and FP4+ and Efke 100, but don't really care for HP5+ or the Neopan films. And then again, even with the films I don't really like for my own work, I've seen some prints made using those films that I do like, suggesting that they have some potential attractions in some situations that I haven't realized. It's all a matter of taste.

[buze]

I found that Delta 400 was very easy to scan too; somehow. I get better tonal range in the histogram than almost any other film (ie wideness of the histogram). Might be the color of the base, I don't know; but I do know it makes a visible difference. I use it on 35mm, a bit on 120 (but I like HP5+ and Tri-X in 120 too!) and would certainly use it on 4x5.

[Alexei Khokhlov]

I use only Delta 400 when photographing in 35mm and in medium formats.
Will gladly buy 100 sheets of 4x5 a year.

[Toyon]

I cannot get a response from Ilford when I've tried to send them this survey. I've tried both the UK and US offices. Anybody have a marketing contact?

[George Hart]

I cannot get a response from Ilford when I've tried to send them this survey. I've tried both the UK and US offices. Anybody have a marketing contact?

Simon Galley, email simon.galley@harmantechnology.com. The Ilford contact page is here http://www.ilfordphoto.com/contact.asp.

[John Bowen]

I hate to be a spoil sport, but I think this survey demonstrates exactly what Ilford already knows. There is not enough demand to produce this film in sheet film sizes. Now if you had 750 or perhaps 7,500 folks express interest, but with only 75 expressing interest and of those only 2 saying they would purchase more than 500 sheets, the film will likely rot in storage prior to being sold to consumers.

Just my 2 cents

[Joseph O'Neil]

Yes, only 75 responses, but look at the main menu - over 2,800 views (at last count - likely higher by now). IN fact, one of the most viewed threads in this category on this board.

My attitude is this - look at the ULF film run that was done in the past. I think the question should & could be - how many orders have to be in hand for Ilford to do a single run?

Also, who says they have to make the stuff year round? For sake of arguement, would there be enough demand that Ilford could do a run of Delta 400 once a year - every April or every September for example - and we all get our orders in ahead of time? Would that be possible?
joe

[BarryS]

I don't think you can draw any firm conclusions from the survey, other than there is definitely some interest. Considering the number of active posters on this forum, I think the response is fairly positive, but we have no denominator. How many people looked at the thread and decided they don't want Delta 400?

Kodak has an active market for TMAX 400, so how can you say there isn't a demand for T-grained 400 speed 4x5 film? I think Ilford ought to consider some limited production runs along with the ULF production.

[al olson]

Just as an aside, from the Ilford Fact Sheets, Delta 400 goes another 50 nm into the red beyond either HP5+ or Delta 100, which both end around 650 nm. I love the film in 120. This for me is sufficient justification to prefer Delta 400 for LF.

I hope they are reading these posts.

[John Bowen]

You also need to keep in mind that doing a ULF run isn't exactly the same as doing a Delta 400 run. FP-4 & HP-5 are already being made and cut to 4x5, 8x10 etc. To do a ULF cutting takes some additional effort, but the film is currently being made. Anything not sold to the ULF crowd can be cut as normal stock items.

To do a Delta 400 run in sheet film sizes would likely require that the entire roll be presold. I have no idea exactly how large a roll of LF film is, but someone does. Perhaps Simon can answer this. Does he visit here?

Perhaps Ilford views this the same as producing a silver chloride paper. The demand for Azo or another silver chloride paper clearly exists. Michael Smith has a fist full of orders awaiting Lodima. For some reason, the large commercial B&W photo manufacturers (Ilford, Kentford, Fuji, Adox, etc.) won't commit to produce a silver chloride paper, so Michael Smith has take up the challenge.

Who knows, perhaps in the future Ilford will find themselves with idle machinery and decide that producing a custom order of Delta 400 in sheet film sizes is suddenly worth their while.

[BarryS]

I don't know--it doesn't seem like to0 much of a logistical issue. Ilford already has the equipment and setups for cutting and packaging 4x5 sheet film from master rolls. Why couldn't a partial roll be used for sheet film and the rest used for roll film? These are really minor details compared to Ilford's will to sell the film. If they decide they want to do it, the barriers aren't that high. These days, film companies need to be more flexible to their customer's needs--how else will they survive as film becomes more a niche product? So having the flexibility to do shorter custom production runs isn't only an asset, it may become a necessity.

[David A. Goldfarb]

I don't know--it doesn't seem like to0 much of a logistical issue. Ilford already has the equipment and setups for cutting and packaging 4x5 sheet film from master rolls. Why couldn't a partial roll be used for sheet film and the rest used for roll film? These are really minor details compared to Ilford's will to sell the film. If they decide they want to do it, the barriers aren't that high. These days, film companies need to be more flexible to their customer's needs--how else will they survive as film becomes more a niche product? So having the flexibility to do shorter custom production runs isn't only an asset, it may become a necessity.

Sheet film and rollfilm aren't on the same base, so they come from different master rolls. Another potential issue is whether the sheet-film base that is currently available works with the emulsion, or would the emulsion have to be re-engineered. I know that this was the problem with Pan-F in sheet sizes--the base that it used to be made on is no longer available, and the emulsion as it is currently made doesn't work with the base that they can get now for sheet film.

[BarryS]

Ok, I forgot about the fact sheet film base is thicker. So we're definitely talking about a whole master roll. Maybe they could coat a shorter master roll. I'd be very surprised if they couldn't use the exact same base that they already use for Delta 100.

I can say from some extensive experience in the manufacturing of medical products that a lot of it comes down to commitment, creativity, and flexibility. I made a number of short run products that I had to "piggyback" on the production of very large volume products. Very often the manufacturing staff can help come up with novel solutions to sneak in short production runs and make them cost-effective.

[tim atherton]

Bear in mind tough that llford actually made this film in sheet sizes not that very ago and still makes Delta 100 in sheets.

It's not like they are resurrecting something like Super XX decades later or producing, say, SF200 in sheet form from scratch.

[David Karp]

I think they changed the emulsion in the roll film version after they discontinued Delta 400 in sheet film, so the new stuff is not the same as the one previously sold in sheet sizes.

I seem to recall that Simon or someone said that a lot of Ilford customers did not buy the original Delta 400 sheet film in favor of HP5+.

Of course, I also remember reading that many customers did not like the old Delta 400 (or was it 400 Delta?) in any form. The new stuff is certainly better in my eyes than the original.

[butterfly]

I would used Delta 400 in 4x5 (once I have mastered loading up dark slides :-( ), and would used over one hundred but less than 500 sheets per year.

Probably more if they did them in readyload format..

[mark e mark]

Delta 400 in 4x5 and 5x7, yes please; but what chance is there of that happening.:(

[BetterSense]

I'd rather they offered Delta 3200 in 4x5. Kodak already offers TMY, so Delta 400 would have to compete with that, but Delta 3200 in sheet sizes would be a one-of-a-kind offering.

[BILL3075]

I'd rather they offered Delta 3200 in 4x5. Kodak already offers TMY, so Delta 400 would have to compete with that, but Delta 3200 in sheet sizes would be a one-of-a-kind offering.

Except if they included it in their LF and ULF program, in which case there might a lot of interest in it, given Kodak's huge minimums.

[sergiob]

I have never tried it, but if its not available the chance of doing it is zero.:(

[ic-racer]

I'd be interested.

[Sirius Glass]

Not interested, I like the traditional grain better.

Steve

[mikebarger]

Hope you get what you're looking for. If I can't have tri-x 400 in 4x5, I'll settle for HP5.

[Rayt]

I don't want a film that I can get only once every few years.

[Sirius Glass]

Hope you get what you're looking for. If I can't have tri-x 400 in 4x5, I'll settle for HP5.

That is what I use, HP5+ because Tri-X 400 is not available in 4x5.

Steve